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Wizardry Wizardry 8 great game ruined by level scaling and respawning

Xenich

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Worth repeating (for the 56th time): if and when you git gud, the "trash fights take 20 minutes" claim is utter bullshit. There are encounters that take a significant amount of time (though 1hour is still a huuuuge overstatement, unless someone is really inept or has to repeat an encounter many times), but these mostly come in the form of some very difficult hand placed opponents or the Rapax stacks of doom. Most of those come very late into the game, at a point that most "this is boooring, give me back my Viconia romance" dissenters probably don't even reach.

Another thing worth repeating (for the 56th time): contrary to many other (older) blobbers, Wiz8 offers the option to avoid combat by running through, sneaking through or teleporting, which is actually viable in quite a few places. After unlocking both teleport hubs and having two air casters capable enough to cast their own portals on those hubs (which is not a big problem for a vast majority of parties) travelling through the world and reaching the most important places (and avoiding majority of random encounters) becomes pretty straightforward. And both of those hubs become naturally available pretty early.

I get that people can become fed up with the amount and pace of combat in Wiz8, it's not a game for your typical storyfag, that's for sure. But its combat is better than all retail PC crpgs that came after it and better than a majority of codex-revered games that came before. The game could use some options to speed up the combat (though they are obviously available through mods) and making some zones combat free, but I always thought that actually learning the ropes and building a party that has a variety of skills, spells and weapons that can chop things up quickly and cleanly is one of the most fun things in Wiz8.

I could discuss your strawman-accussations of "def not a storyfag game" (my favourite newer game is Blackguards) or "anyone who criticize it probably didn't finish it" (I did, because I'm an autist about finishing games and also enjoyed the base mechanics immensely). But what I'm more interested in is the "speed of combat thing." I used the WizFast application, but it doesn't actually help that much. Or rather, it does in the sense that you don't have to wait for animations, which solves the speed of each encounter, but it doesn't cut down on the sheer amount of samey enemies you have to chock through in a combat system that makes every fight feel taxing and not that trashy. M&M can have you fight through a billion enemies because combat is fairly swift and non-taxing. I wish Wizardry 8 had less overall encounters and the remaining encounters even more taxing on the party. I think the system is better structured for that.

Still a very enjoyable game like I said. It's been on my list of favourite RPGs since I played it.

It has been a long time, but I could have sworn several years ago there was a program that actually allowed you to select a scale of the "number" of encounters the game spawned, not just animation speed. Maybe I am remembering wrong, but I think I even used it messing around and it worked as advertised. /shrug
 

Grunker

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If there is, I'd like to know about it! :D

(althought, wouldn't that mess with your progression a metric ton? I guess not since Wiz8 is fairly level scaled or..?)
 

Xenich

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If there is, I'd like to know about it! :D

(althought, wouldn't that mess with your progression a metric ton? I guess not since Wiz8 is fairly level scaled or..?)

Not sure exactly, I mean, by the time I played with it, I had already finished the game and so I really didn't do much with it. I will look around, maybe I am just going senile.

Ok, man... a lot of the old urls for mods and utilities are gone. Even google comes up light on things.

This is the only site I could find quickly, but it lacks descriptions of the mods. Maybe you already knew about it, but well... /shrug

http://www.zimlab.com/wizardry/wiz8mods.htm
 
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Whisper

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Removing spawns is bad idea. You wont have good training and levels for "set" battles (those without lvl scaling).
 

Whisper

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This was my fear exactly.

There are spawns because they should be there.

Game is perfectly balanced, if you start adding or removing things via mods (except for wizfast) you will just break it all.
 

Wizfall

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Oct 3, 2012
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Almost everybody now wizfast.
But Faster combat you can find here http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/wizardry-8-enhancements.79581/ is much better.
Wizfast only increase the move speed of opponents (which is already great) but the faster combat component mod also increase the combat animations (speed of swings, ect...) and speed of projectile weapons (like the lizard's split that take forever to hit).
With wizfast the length of big combats are halved but with Faster combat it's only 25% of what it is used to be.
If you combined with chameleon, running to avoid foes, a smart use of the portal spell and teleporters the game becime very manageable.

NB : should have a sticky somewhere to tell people to use Faster combat (maybe at the start of this thread), it's a mandatory mod IMO considering the extreme length of combats in Wiz8 and too many people seemed to only know wizfast.
 

Gnidrologist

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Solo, female Fairy Ninja is the only way to play.
Just to indulge - is this even possible without grinding Stealth near to 80-90 on seekers/crabs before leaving monastery. I ask everyone here. Never tried that darned build, because even solo rogue was damn punishing at the start, even though it gets into absolute terminator in mid game already.
^ did not know about Faster, thanks for the tip
Wizfast on max lvl (8?) is still damn slow, when you have to fight 3 groups of rapax or stupid plants at once. I can't imagine how i could handle the default speed in my first couple of playthroughs. D:
 
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Grunker

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^ are you talking comparison to the Faster mod? 'Cause I'm def trying that on next run!
 

Grunker

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Look at the discussion I'm having right before you posted. I used WizFast when I played, but apparantly there's a new mod that also speeds up animations and other things.

(It's literally right before your own post bruv)
 

nomask7

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Yeah, I must say that I was absolutly adoring the game, until I hit Arnika Road and Arnika itself... not even a fucking all-out war explains those armies of bandits roaming the streets, especially with the city NPC acting so unimpressed.

Why are people complaining about Arnika Road? I avoided most of the battles and reached the first town without problems in no time. I got tired of the combat soon after moving on from that town but that's just the nature of slow-paced simple combat system - which would be even more boring if there was no level-scaling to make every ten minutes of a battle a challenge.

The thing about those games butcer mentioned is that they're all fast-paced so they can afford to have many battles that are easy or trivial, because they actually feel easy and trivial since you can get through them in five seconds.

Just think of how crappy JRPGs are due to the constant trivial trash mobs that still manage to take a minute or more of your time each due to how clunky the combat is. Ugh. Who outside of Japan would want to play that stuff? It's mindnumbing.
 

Grunker

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Yeah Arnika wasn't really a problem for me either, I'm surprised that's the part people complain about.
 

Gnidrologist

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Oh, sry, my blunder..
Not Arnika. That is an item/xp excavation point. People usually feel overwhelmed on ''Arnika Rod''. As i did, when first played.
 

Baron Dupek

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Removing spawns is bad idea. You wont have good training and levels for "set" battles (those without lvl scaling).

I'm not against them, but wouldn't be better to make some places dedicated to grind (like nests, hives, portals, breeding ground?) and Arnika Road populated once or twice, then be just empty road?

There was two version of Wizfast.exe and honestly, I have no idea what was a difference that make one of them working, while other - didn't do thing.
 

Nael

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Arnika isn't that big of a deal. Just lure enemies to a corner in the map, cast Insanity/Sleep, and let the armies of monsters and men do the work for you.
 

Xi

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Solo, female Fairy Ninja is the only way to play.
Just to indulge - is this even possible without grinding Stealth near to 80-90 on seekers/crabs before leaving monastery. I ask everyone here. Never tried that darned build, because even solo rogue was damn punishing at the start, even though it gets into absolute terminator in mid game already.

It is totally possible, and I've done it. I still have my save on my laptop I think. Basically, you need to grind up your stealth in the beginning. This is a requirement. After that you have free rain to go mad leveling and get the right loot. This is only a power gamer's play through. Honestly, there are so many awesome items that you can't use that you'll probably be pulling your hair out by the end.

Still, the couple of items that a female fairyninja can use are insanely over powered. These items combined with spell buffs make you really powerful.

Itzcoming_zpsf3e5dd61.jpg
 
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GlutenBurger

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Gnidrologist

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Guess Xi didn't read my post carefully enough and just responded with general answer about fairy ninja walkthrough.
I, myself, did two solo runs (never finished them because the endgame was even more easy-boring with solo demigod than with well developed party), one with rogue (fellpurr i guess, don't remember exactly) and elf bishop. Both get so overpowered by mid game that hair pulling because of unusable items isn't really that much of a problem. Besides i converted both of them into fighters by the time their native skills were developed sky high, so that they can use infinity helm and other late game items, but at that point i quit, because there were really no challanges left, even at ascension peak. Would probably kill Dark Savant and his posse in one turn before they do anything with both chars.
 

DraQ

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I never quite got the point of such soloing.

I mean, I get the cons:
  • no banter
  • no fun with formation management and other tactics
  • can't use some fun items
  • have to grind stealth and (if I understand correctly) carry a deadweight character to pass the Crock.
What are the pros?
Because in a level scaled game you can't even say "higher level", as random spawns will stay at appropriate level and your skills will be underdeveloped for your level.

If you want CoC, you might as well have a Faerie Ninja in a normal party.

Also, Wiz8 should be played on ironman, optionally with the exception of the first run.

P.S. Ninja portraits are only good for fully humanoid races, they look odd for Faeries, furries and scallies.
 

Nael

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I never quite got the point of such soloing.

I mean, I get the cons:
  • no banter
  • no fun with formation management and other tactics
  • can't use some fun items
  • have to grind stealth and (if I understand correctly) carry a deadweight character to pass the Crock.
What are the pros?

In the days before seXBox/Steam achievements people still did weird shit just to do it or to say they did, y'know? It's just a form of "challenging" oneself even if, as you said, the game only scales up with you so far as you progress as a "party."

People just do weird shit like this, because...
 

Gnidrologist

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Soloing is fun, because it has great punishment/reward element to it. You have incredibly hard start, but once you start to get grip on things, you gradually become an invincible killing machine.
Obviously, i started solo runs only when i had bunch of runs with parties of every shape and quantity. Dualing is also fun. Had a ''party'' with lizardman warrior tank and bishop once. They supplemented each other perfectly
 

DraQ

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Psi-Wiz
Psi-Wiz
Alch-Wiz
Alch-Wiz
Div-Wiz


F,W,E as main damage element, Divine only for Div-bishop, M only for two of Psi-bishops, Air for two of Wiz-Alch.


Now i try to have 6 bishops, with 3 schools for each. 4 of Psi-Wiz-Alch and 2 of Psi-Wiz-Div.

p.s.
I also notice that chance to cast depends also on character level, not just school and element skill.

p.s. Int-Pie first, then Sen-Speed.
I still don't think >2 bishops make sense unless planning to mass spam elementals, while still covering all magic schools.
A specialist caster will be able to cast given spell at much higher dice or cast higher level spell than a bishop, and I don't really see much of an advantage to casting iceball twice when you could cast the same iceball once at 2x level for the equivalent effect and also cast something else.
It get's even more drastic with clouds that scale with square of dice and don't stack.

All in all a summon spam pure magic party I'd envision would probably look like like one of the following:
  • Bis(Alc-Div), Bis(Alc-Psi), Bis(Wiz-Div), Bis(Wiz-Psi), Alc, Wiz - 4 bishops, 2 specialist caster, all schools covered, up to 6x simultaneous elementals cast from spell points (no canned dependence).
  • Bis(Alc-Div), Bis(Alc-Psi), Bis(Wiz-Div), Bis(Wiz-Psi), Bis(Wiz-Alc), Bis(Psi-Div) - probably closest to yours,
    Conclave!!! :troll:
    , covers all school combinations, up to 5x elementals, seems a bit wasteful, though - could have had better casting effectiveness and one more elemental from the party above.
  • 1-2x Alc, Div, Psi, 2-3x Wiz - Specialist casters only, all schools, optimal casting performance and still up to 4x elementals.
 

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