Why the insistence from devs on changing PnP rules to cRPG??

[Syme]

a lot of PnP rules suck ass and should be sent to the sun

Name one. Please. Just one.

How about 5?

Level Adjustment.
XP penalties for multiclassing.
Diplomacy.
Leadership and cohorts.
Epic spells. Actually, most of the epic level handbook.

A lot of these aren't even in Pathfinder, and were removed from D&D.

Yes. For good reason. Perhaps you want to explain to OP why that happened, because I sure don't.

 

[Cryomancer]

Making sense doesn't necessarily mean it makes for good gameplay, especially when it's an adaptation. (see: money having weight)

On Daggerfall, money weights. But there are banking systems, so makes more sense to carry an letter giving the right to "draw gold coins" on banks than carry an cart worth of gold coins.

 

[Roguey]

Even Tim Cain realized that 3.5 needed changing in his most-faithful-adaptation-ever.

Characters need two hands free to use a crossbow or sling.
• Attacks of Opportunity are always standard attacks, never trips or other attacks.
• You can cast a spell with your hands full at no penalty.
• All spellcasters are assumed to have all necessary spell components, except for
those that cost more than 99 gp. For spell components that cost more than 99
gp, the game deducts gold to cover the expense.
• If you're unconscious but stable and you stabilize on your own, you don't lose hit
points every hour as detailed in DMG p.85. That is, there is no difference between
stabilizing on your own and stabilizing because of aid from another player.
• Disabled characters automatically gain hit points naturally and don't suffer a
chance of dying (DMG p.85).
• Death from massive damage isn't implemented.
• Attack order is always primary attack 1, primary attack 2, primary attack 3 and
offhand attack 1, offhand attack 2. You can’t change that order.
• Dodge gives you bonuses against the first monster to attack you in a round. You
don't get to choose. The burden of choosing an attacker each round is no fun.
• The player must select an alignment for his entire party, which restricts the
player’s choices for individual character alignments. This alignment is tested by
NPCs to produce alignment-based reactions and dialog options and also controls
the background story and starting quest for the player group.
• We think that the D&D 3rd Ed. designers had meant that when you are
encumbered that you would move at three-quarters of your normal movement
rate. However, since they play on a grid of 5' squares, they always rounded this
down, yielding the seemingly inconsistent 30' –> 20' but 20' –> 15'. We
implement movement as a real number that is three-quarters of your normal
movement rate. Thus, a character who is encumbered and could move 30',
now moves 22.5' per turn.
Detect Magic: Does not allow detection of spell school via a Spellcraft roll. Also,
the aura strengths are represented by intensity rather than duration of effect.
• Detect Secret Doors: Detects the presence of secret doors in its range. We
ignored the timing issues.
• Prone characters can't attack at all. This was done to reduce the number
of animations.
• Turned Undead: Turned creatures do not stop being turned if the turner
approaches them.
• Commanded Undead: It does not take a standard action to direct undead;
they function like followers.
• The number of commanded undead is limited by number of followers, not by
double the cleric's level.
• Fascinated creatures (through the bardic music ability) cannot move or attack.
The effect is broken when they take damage.
• Maintaining the bardic Fascinate ability means you do not perform any other
action besides moving that round. If you do, the target is no longer fascinated.
• You can attempt to Fascinate the same creature as many times as your daily
performance allowance permits.
• The bardic music ability Suggestion is replaced with Intimidate: A bard with
nine or more ranks in Perform can Intimidate a single creature. The creature is
affected if he fails a Will saving throw (DC 11 + bard’s Charisma modifier).
Affected creatures are forced to move away from the bard as if affected by a
Fear spell for as many rounds as the bard has levels. Using this ability counts
toward the bard’s daily limit of performances.
• The spell Doom does affect damage rolls (as per the first printing of the PHB,
not the second).
• Barbarian rage was implemented as a three state system: you are normal, raged,
or fatigued. Also, fatigue lasts for as many rounds as the rage lasted. These
changes handle the obscure problem of only raging once per encounter, but
fatigue wearing off at the end of the encounter.
• You can't make a Trip Attack as part of an AOO, Cleave, or Whirlwind Attack.
• You can make a Trip Attack with any weapon. You can’t drop that weapon to
avoid being tripped in return.
• The rogue Opportunist special ability works if the target is hit by a melee
attack in a round — it doesn't matter if you damage the target or not.
• The Skill Mastery special ability has been changed, because take 10 and take
20 works differently in our game and are no longer applicable. Skill Mastery
gives you a +2 bonus on a number of skills equal to (3 + your Intelligence
modifier). This bonus stacks with Skill Focus.
• You can't spontaneously cast spells that have metamagic feats applied to them.
Druid levels and half of the Ranger level (if Ranger level > 4) stack for the purposes
of determining available animal companions for multiclass druid/rangers.
• Lizard familiars give you a +2 bonus on Will saves instead of a bonus on
climb checks.
• Since we don't have the Endurance feat in our game, the prerequisite for
Diehard has been changed to Great Fortitude.
• The Luck Domain special ability has been changed so that you set a checkbox
in order to reroll the next missed saving throw, missed attack or unconfirmed
critical. Once again, the burden of choosing every opportunity is no fun.
• Small and large weapon sizes are implemented as a 3.0/3.5 hybrid. Our
weapon list includes the half-spear and halfling siangham, the halfling kama
and the halfling quarterstaff, but no other small weapons. Medium-sized creatures
can wield the halfling weapons as if they were light weapons, at no
penalty. Halflings can wield medium weapons as if they were one category
larger, without penalty. We include the Sai and Shuriken as per 3.5 rules.
• Deflect Arrows and Snatch Arrows are now passive feats. Deflect arrows is
automatically used at the first opportunity. Similarly, the first weapon thrown
at a character with the Snatch Arrows feat each round is automatically thrown
back at the attacker.
• Characters with the Diehard feat cannot choose to lose consciousness.
• Cloak of Elvenkind will always grant a +10 circumstance bonus to Hide checks
(no pulling it over your head).

And even then he didn't go far enough. Having to identify every potion is an utter pain.

 

[aeroaeko]

How many times are you autists going to make the same fucking threads over and over again. This topic has been beaten to death almost as much as rtwp vs turn based combat. There are literally millions of threads about the topic and I'm confident that no one here has any thing revolutionary to add to the discussion. Stop being an autistic and just enjoy video games instead of sperging out about trivial meta debates that go around in circles. You're a fucking DORK.

 

[mindfields]

I think the best function of CRPGs is giving those of us who like Tabletop RPGs but don't like socializing a chance to experience them in video game form.

 

[Mortmal]

Pride and big ego , same as pen and paper Dm's who want to implement their cool ideas homebrew , for their dull d&d campaign that wont get past level 3 , thinking they are genius when a rpg ruleset is a complex mechanic that break if you just change things like that. Worse are devs like sawyer who wants to reinvent the wheel making their own system inferior to existing ones on every aspect but they want to push that cause they think they are stable genius .
Also laziness, cause the true way is designing an rpg encounter by hand each time with limited rest points. They never go for that and we get a sea of random encounters with rest everywhere.
If done by professionals who really care, with the budget, its possible to translate every pen and paper rules in a crpg.

 

[glass blackbird]

I'm just glad this thread's glowing brain geniuses have determined that ToEE, since it is more accurate, is a better experience than every IE game

 

[Mortmal]

I'm just glad this thread's glowing brain geniuses have determined that ToEE, since it is more accurate, is a better experience than every IE game

Only combat is .

 

[Shadenuat]

How many times are you autists going to make the same fucking threads over and over again. This topic has been beaten to death almost as much as rtwp vs turn based combat. There are literally millions of threads about the topic and I'm confident that no one here has any thing revolutionary to add to the discussion. Stop being an autistic and just enjoy video games instead of sperging out about trivial meta debates that go around in circles. You're a fucking DORK.

well it's just that recently we got a lot of these massive rpgs made by experienced developers with faithfully implemented pnp systems so we have much to discuss

 

[Poseidon00]

I'm just glad this thread's glowing brain geniuses have determined that ToEE, since it is more accurate, is a better experience than every IE game

It really is though. At least for build nerds like me. Especially with the mods. Temple+ and Co8 crew deserve alot of credit.

I do like the IE games a lot but TOEE is a damn gem. It may not have revolutionized the genre like BG, but it showed that faithful adaptions of the ruleset *can* exist and *can* be very enjoyable, contrary to the brainlet opinions of game devs everywhere.

 

[glass blackbird]

*while exploring the vast empty wasteland of hommlet* wow i love accuracy

 

[Poseidon00]

Hommlet? Empty? Nearly every person in the village has a backstory and a quest. Easy way to gain a level if fighting at level 1 is too hard.

Nulb is a far more interesting settlement anyway.

 

[Cryomancer]

Pride and big ego , same as pen and paper Dm's who want to implement their cool ideas homebrew , for their dull d&d campaign that wont get past level 3 , thinking they are genius when a rpg ruleset is a complex mechanic that break if you just change things like that. Worse are devs like sawyer who wants to reinvent the wheel making their own system inferior to existing ones on every aspect but they want to push that cause they think they are stable genius .
Also laziness, cause the true way is designing an rpg encounter by hand each time with limited rest points. They never go for that and we get a sea of random encounters with rest everywhere.
If done by professionals who really care, with the budget, its possible to translate every pen and paper rules in a crpg.

Yes, honestly, see some comments from Vincke about BG/D&D remembers me a lot of coments of Jay "fu** that loser" Wilson about Diablo 2...

I'm just glad this thread's glowing brain geniuses have determined that ToEE, since it is more accurate, is a better experience than every IE game

The combat is. And an good representation of rules is one thing.

Even Tim Cain realized that 3.5 needed changing in his most-faithful-adaptation-ever.

The changes that he made looks very small compared to remove +CL from an class, limit summons to one summon, make arcane archers only able to imbue fire, etc.

There are literally millions of threads about the topic and I'm confident that no one here has any thing revolutionary to add to the discussion.

Wrong. I added the Vincke quotes and gave new examples of changing the rules and it ruining some classes and specializations. You are insulting people in this thread without even reading it...

I do like the IE games a lot but TOEE is a damn gem. It may not have revolutionized the genre like BG, but it showed that faithful adaptions of the ruleset *can* exist and *can* be very enjoyable, contrary to the brainlet opinions of game devs everywhere.

The unique thing that i don't like about ToEE is that there are no tier 6-9 Sorc spells. It make soloing the game very hard.

 

[Roguey]

Hommlet? Empty? Nearly every person in the village has a backstory and a quest. Easy way to gain a level if fighting at level 1 is too hard.

Nulb is a far more interesting settlement anyway.

The problem with Hommlet is that it was built like a real village to scale on paper and traversing all that is easy when movement in abstract, not so much when you're in an actual video game with only one quicktravel spot.

limit summons to one summon,

The summoning limitation sounds like a ~balance~ decision. Possibly also a hardware limitations-of-the-time (not the present) thing.

 

[Cryomancer]

The summoning limitation sounds like a ~balance~ decision. Possibly also a hardware limitations-of-the-time (not the present) thing.

So the pnp is not balanced? Tons of games that allow multiple summons are not? In MP, is up to the server decide his rules. If they wanna ban multiple summons or not, just like many servers bans time stop.

Seriously. There are already an summon limit on pnp that makes sense. You can't control 2 HD * caster level worth of creatures. On BG2:EE, i can control one Planetar + 4 Efreets but not 6 1 HD Skeletons. This makes no sense.

No wizard on NWN1 pick conjuration specialization by a reason. He will lose the best spells in the game from opposite school and get an weak summon that will die in one round.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

So the pnp is not balanced?

lol no

 

[glass blackbird]

Personally I already get stuck in rooms in Hordes of the Underdark with 2 companions; imagine if you could summon 20 of them

 

[Cryomancer]

Personally I already get stuck in rooms in Hordes of the Underdark with 2 companions; imagine if you could summon 20 of them

Did you know? You can press the "rest" button and make all summons disappear?

 

[Dorateen]

Counterpoint: Developers who are not afraid to implement pnp rules in computer role-playing games.

 

[glass blackbird]

Personally I already get stuck in rooms in Hordes of the Underdark with 2 companions; imagine if you could summon 20 of them

Did you know? You can press the "rest" button and make all summons disappear?

Sorry, I thought you wanted accuracy of rules implementation? Yet you want to be able to rest without provisions and rations?

 

[Cryomancer]

Sorry, I thought you wanted accuracy of rules implementation? Yet you want to be able to rest without provisions and rations?

No, resting on Pathfinder Kingmaker is the best exactly because is the closest to pnp.

PS : Undeads can rest without provision. If you vampire is not starving from blood, he can sleep without provisions.

 

[glass blackbird]

When you're using up rations in order to get past the skeletons you summoned because they won't move out of the doorway, you'll be glad that at last Neverwinter Nights has become accurate

 

[Cryomancer]

When you're using up rations in order to get past the skeletons you summoned because they won't move out of the doorway, you'll be glad that at last Neverwinter Nights has become accurate

You can dispel then, order then to leave, trow an fireball(...) or you can not summon then. Nobody forces you to summon then. Only one summon BS is awful. It killed certain classes/wiz specializations

 

[deuxhero]

a lot of PnP rules suck ass and should be sent to the sun

Name one. Please. Just one.

From 3.5? Multiclass XP Penalties. The inability to sneak attack in dim light. Poison is always evil. Paladins and Monks can't multiclass. Bards can't be lawful. Barbarians, people steeped in tradition, can't be lawful. Sorcerers have slower spellcasting progression than wizards/clerics do for no particular reason. Weapon Finesse requires 1 BAB so you can't actually take it at first level in any class you'd want to use it with it. Virtually everything about mundane item crafting. Assassin spells always have verbal components, meaning the sneaky dude has to speak in a clear voice to use them.

That's just core stuff off the top of my head and doesn't include the many balance issues of the system.