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Why the hell aren't there more "space opera" / futuristic CRPGs?

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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
I'm still waiting for a proper Star Trek-like RPG. Mass Effect was basically Star Trek for retards and it was still succesful. To this day there is no game that tried to match the balance of the on-ship drama/planetary exploration/space battles of the first Star Trek series. They are always tilted in one way or the other. Faster than light was focused almost entirely on space battles. Mass Effect had no space combat in a game where you fly around are in command of a space-ship.
 

DalekFlay

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I'm still waiting for a proper Star Trek-like RPG. Mass Effect was basically Star Trek for retards and it was still succesful. To this day there is no game that tried to match the balance of the on-ship drama/planetary exploration/space battles of the first Star Trek series. They are always tilted in one way or the other. Faster than light was focused almost entirely on space battles. Mass Effect had no space combat in a game where you fly around are in command of a space-ship.

Star Trek is my favorite "franchise" and the only thing you might call me a "fanboy" of and I would fucking kill a dozen innocent babies to get a real Star Trek RPG. The MMO is such a blue-ball for existing.
 

Bohrain

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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Scifi space operas with their futuristic backdrop are farther from the familiar human experience. The medieval existence was universal and lasted for centuries, so there is a wealth of culture, stories, myths, and history to draw from. It's far easier to create an identifiable settings an narrative from this. In space you've got to re-invent the wheel, or something entirely new.

Hardly matters since medieval settings tend to be these contemporary themepark caricatures where groups of murderhoboes take quests from guilds to slay rats.
 
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Dedicated_Dark

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Star Trek is my favorite "franchise" and the only thing you might call me a "fanboy" of and I would fucking kill a dozen innocent babies to get a real Star Trek RPG. The MMO is such a blue-ball for existing.
Star Trek Voyager Elite Force I & II are pretty good shooters, you should check em out if feel up for it.
 

DalekFlay

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Star Trek Voyager Elite Force I & II are pretty good shooters, you should check em out if feel up for it.

Yeah I remember enjoying them, should replay soon if I can find them somewhere since they aren't for sale. I also enjoyed the old point and click adventure games, which are on GOG now. Can't remember any other Star Trek games up my alley from back in the day, other than maybe the FMV ones, which I never played.

It's an RPG I want though.
 

Louis_Cypher

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I'm still waiting for a proper Star Trek-like RPG. Mass Effect was basically Star Trek for retards and it was still succesful. To this day there is no game that tried to match the balance of the on-ship drama/planetary exploration/space battles of the first Star Trek series. They are always tilted in one way or the other. Faster than light was focused almost entirely on space battles. Mass Effect had no space combat in a game where you fly around are in command of a space-ship.

Star Trek is my favorite "franchise" and the only thing you might call me a "fanboy" of and I would fucking kill a dozen innocent babies to get a real Star Trek RPG. The MMO is such a blue-ball for existing.

Star Trek used to actually have great games until Activision got the license around 2000, before which Interplay/Microprose had it.

- Star Trek: 25th Anniversary (quality point-and-click with the full TOS cast)
by INTERPLAY


- Star Trek: Judgement Rites (quality point-and-click with the full TOS cast)
by INTERPLAY

- Star Trek: A Final Unity (quality point-and-click with the full TNG cast)
by MICROPROSE

- Star Trek: Generations (almost forgotton Doom clone with an inventory system like System Shock and again, full voice cast)
by MICROPROSE

- Star Trek: Klingon Honor Guard (unreal-engine FPS)
by MICROPROSE

- Star Trek: Starfleet Academy (full FMVs with Shatner, Konig, etc)
by INTERPLAY

- Star Trek: Klingon Academy (full FMVs with Christopher Plumber)
by INTERPLAY


- Star Trek: Birth of the Federation
(great 4X)
by MICROPROSE

That second-to-last last one has a Klingon opera soundtrack by Inon Zur, plus Christopher Plumber quoting Shakespeare.

Presented by Brian Fargo:


You will not find a more faithful set of games for any franchise in existence, except KOTOR I&II and Dark Forces I&II for Star Wars.

It's a crime that these games arn't more widely known and appreciated, but most gamers today can't remember the era.
 
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Louis_Cypher

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In the last few weeks something happened that I think deserves mentioning here in this thread, due to it's direct relevance to the topic. A number of ex-BioWare people have been joining Wizards of the Coasts new in-house games development studio Archetype Entertainment, and their first project is apparently going to be a science fiction game - hopefully a space opera. The latest has been Drew Karpyshyn, lead writer of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and Mass Effect. We have had former employees re-joining or joining other studios before, but still this is exciting. Here is some concept art:

ICAhtcs.jpg


VBFfzTz.jpg


VcFHWIQ.jpg


What he had to say was interesting:

“When I started at BioWare, everything was fresh and exciting. It was a dream job – talented people working together to create epic games like Baldur’s Gate, KOTOR, Mass Effect and Dragon Age. But as we grew and became more successful, things changed. We became more corporate. We were less able to make what we loved, and the teams were pushed to create games based on market research rather than our creative instincts and passions. My dream job became just a job, and I lost the enthusiasm and excitement I once had."

“But with Archetype, my passion has been rekindled. The feel in the studio reminds me of my early days at BioWare; I can feel the magic in the air. And even though I can’t get too deep into the specifics of what we’re working on yet, we’re already generating plenty of excitement in the industry."

“I know we have big shoes to fill. With BioWare, I was part of a legacy that will endure forever. We created some of the most beloved CRPGs of the past two decades. But I truly believe at Archetype we have the talent and the opportunity to do something just as amazing!”

Meanwhile this may be old news to a lot of people here on the codex, but a game mentioned in the original post, which was formerly known as The New World, developed by Iron Tower Studio, was changed months ago to Colony Ship: A Post-Earth Role Playing Game. I thought I would mention this for anyone browsing the thread over time. Iron Tower have a pretty strong track record so far with Age of Decadence, so I think this is probably the most solid upcoming sci-fi project on the horizon. Here are some images:

c0bPwfc.jpg


67q5A1j.jpg


iAeIWxP.jpg


The plot and setting:

It is the Year of Our Lord 2754…

You will never feel the sun’s warmth under a blue sky, never hear the wind in the branches of a tree, and never swim in the ocean, all because you had the misfortune to be born on the Ship, chained to a fate you didn’t choose. You have never seen Earth and you’ll never see Proxima Centauri either. You’re doomed to live and die on the Ship in the name of the Mission, like your father before you, like his father before him.

The Ship is old. She had already been twenty years in service when she was rechristened Starfarer - a pretty name for a retrofitted interplanetary freighter. No one is certain the Ship will actually reach its destination, and nobody much cares, since no one alive now will live to see it. Might as well get on with your life and try to make the best of it.

Sounds closer to no-FTL space opera like The Expanse. Right now, these two projects plus indie Stellar Tactics and Bethesda's Starfield are the main hopes for the genre going into the future. But the addition of Archetype's project has suddenly made the amount of upcoming science fiction look really solid. Iron Tower are a solid indie developer and the prospect of a sort of new BioWare backed by Hasbro/Wizards of the Coast, is tantalizing even if we don't know much yet. From having almost nothing to look forward to, space opera might be having a small renaissance. Who knows maybe Denis Villeneuve's Dune will do for sci-fi what The Lord of the Rings did for fantasy, and encourage a new wave of interest too - there is a certain symmetry to it - 20 years since LOTR and 40 years since Star Wars.
 
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DraQ

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The plot and setting:

It is the Year of Our Lord 2754…

You will never feel the sun’s warmth under a blue sky, never hear the wind in the branches of a tree, and never swim in the ocean, all because you had the misfortune to be born on the Ship, chained to a fate you didn’t choose. You have never seen Earth and you’ll never see Proxima Centauri either. You’re doomed to live and die on the Ship in the name of the Mission, like your father before you, like his father before him.

The Ship is old. She had already been twenty years in service when she was rechristened Starfarer - a pretty name for a retrofitted interplanetary freighter. No one is certain the Ship will actually reach its destination, and nobody much cares, since no one alive now will live to see it. Might as well get on with your life and try to make the best of it.

Sounds closer to no-FTL space opera like The Expanse.
More like:
Sounds like sci-fi themed RPG with no outdoor tilesets.

It does not mean bad, mind you - the opposite is perfectly possible (and the more hard and hard-ish SF, the better), but space opera assumes some amount of space travel - as in between different locations, rather than just sitting in one enclosed place (even if the place itself is moving).
 
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I've always been a little surprised by the lack of other studio getting in on the Mass Effect game when that was getting so much press and goodwill at the start. Seems like a studio like Red Storm could have easily come in, made a better feeling and playing third person shooter "RPG" than BioWare was putting on the market at the time, and given their Publisher a whole new franchise. But instead nobody really tried taking them on. The more RPG developers get into the wheelhouse of other developers, (especially when they find success those other developer aren't) the more I'm surprised those other developers don't just beat them at the things they're trying to do.

As for why there aren't more Space Opera themed RPGs. Who fucking knows. Developers and publishers are idiots. It's probably because of D&D. It's probably some misguided notion you need some license (mostly the D&D license) to sell RPGs. But you'd think with how huge Star Wars is, with it being one of the biggest brands on the face of the Earth, that you'd see publishers putting out their "Star Wars" or not being afraid to go that director with a RPG. It seems like a very safe take for a RPG, but looking at the lack of them I guess publishers and developers see it different.

You know what really makes the lack of sci-fi RPGs so fucking weird? Final Fantasy 7. Sure it's a JRPG, but it was also one of the best selling games ever made when it came out and it's full of sci-fi stuff. It's actually a bit mind boggling the success of FF7 seemingly had zero impact on RPGs from western developers. I mean, RPGs were a pretty niche market in the '90s, so when somethings comes out and totally eclipses the business you're doing you'd think they'd take some notice of it. Even if that notice basically extended to: I guess the kids really like this mix of fantasy and sci-fi.
 
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Louis_Cypher

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More like:
Sounds like sci-fi themed RPG with no outdoor tilesets.

It does not mean bad, mind you - the opposite is perfectly possible (and the more hard and hard-ish SF, the better), but space opera assumes some amount of space travel - as in between different locations, rather than just sitting in one enclosed place (even if the place itself is moving).

I'm hoping there will be stopovers at comets, EVAs, lost areas of the ship, complex societies and subcultures... and maybe more than meets the eye in terms of the setting... but yeah, it does look like it will share a lot more in common with something like Outland than Star Trek, Babylon 5 or Mass Effect - I just didn't wanna express too strong a preference considering how few space RPGs we get. It's still one of my most anticipated games even though I would admittedly prefer alien worlds. I hear a lot of praise for Iron Tower's work here on the Codex. If it's like 'Planescape on a Starship' that could be good. Aside from Cyberpunk 2077 there wasn't much I cared about coming out, so Colony Ship and the Untitled Archetype game give me something to look forward to in gaming.

While I'm here, might as well post some screens from Stellar Tactics, the other hope:

rHfgse5.png


QKBOHv7.png


xL967MH.jpg
 

DarKPenguiN

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+1000 for Stellar Tactics- Not only shaping up to be a great game but the dev is awesome and deserves the support... I'm still in awe that one guy is making this game.

Evidently its been released on GOG recently and alot of people are now learning about it for the first time and I'm glad to see a game that deserves support finally seeming to get it.
 

Beastro

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- Star Trek: Birth of the Federation (great 4X)
by MICROPROSE

BotF always bugs me because it does 4X well yet it isn't that great in any one area but is addictive a fuck. IMO, so much of what makes it fun is it fully delivers on producing a 4X Trek game.

I just wish they could make a sequel worthy of it. :(
 
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Louis_Cypher

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Absolutely agree... it it by far the most addictive 4X I've ever played, more than Stellaris even. Maybe it's because the Star Trek setting is such a joy to inhabit that it's so addictive. I think one of the things BOTF does well is immersion. It feels like you are actually inside the setting; the geopolitics is realistic to Star Trek. I couldn't get enough of how the minor species react differently to the different empires. Nausicaans expressing approval of Klingon wars, Vulcans being inclined toward the Federation's values, etc. Immersion like that was a common feature of Star Trek and Star Wars games of the 90s, because they were made by real fans with care, not by market research. Mass Effect reached that level; having a codex as interesting as some books, and planets that felt real - Ferros, Noveria, Ilos, Tuchanka. There have been some good Warhammer 40,000 and Dune games too, with 40k indies recently really stepping up their game with Battlefleet Gothic: Armada and Mechanicus, but they lean toward strategy rather than exploration.

Out of interest, here is a list of the planets that can be visited in some Star Trek games:
  • Star Trek: 25th Anniversary
  • - - Planet Pollux V
  • - - Beta Myamid System / USS Masada
  • - - ARK-7 Research Space Station
  • - - Harrapan System / Alien Cargo Ship
  • - - Planet Digifal III
  • - - Planet Hrakkour IV
  • - - Alpha Proxima System / Asteroid Scythe
  • - - USS Republic
  • Star Trek: Judgement Rites
  • - - Espoir Research Space Station
  • - - Planet Balkos III
  • - - Delphi System / Simulated WWI-Germany
  • - - Planet Onyius II
  • - - The Antares Rift
  • - - Planet Nova Atar III
  • - - Alien Colony Ship
  • - - Unknown Planet
  • Star Trek: A Final Unity
  • - - Mertens Research Space Station
  • - - Planet Horst III
  • - - Planet Morassia
  • - - Planet Frigis
  • - - Planet Allanor
  • - - The Unity Device Space Station
  • Star Trek: Generations
  • - - Amargosa Observatory Space Station
  • - - Planet Galorndon Core
  • - - Planet Arvada II
  • - - Planet Halee II
  • - - Planet Epsion II
  • - - Planet Bersus V
  • - - Planet Antilios I
  • - - Klingon Bird-of-Prey
  • - - Planet Veridian III
  • Star Trek: Klingon Honor Guard
  • - - Planet Qo'noS
  • - - Asteroid Rura Penthe
  • - - Planet Qualor II
  • - - Mendora Nebula Space Station
  • - - The Starship Kor-Van
  • - - The Starship Fek'lhr
  • - - Praxis
  • - - Planet Beta Thoridor
  • Star Trek: The Fallen
  • - - Planet Bajor
  • - - The Starship Ke'el Tul
  • - - Jeraddo
  • - - Planet Arduria
  • - - Planet SRIII
  • - - USS Defiant
  • - - Planet Hass'terral
  • - - Deep Space Nine
NoTrHXT.png


nCYOzZ3.png


N5lcrfU.jpg


0DF4zpF.jpg


JTkVX5F.png


Star Trek adventure games, KOTOR, Dark Forces and Mass Effect all took loving care to craft alien worlds that you felt compelled by - some made you feel like you were a thousand light years away from the nearest living soul - some felt like you were in a bustling alien metropolis - some like you were exploring the ruins of a long dead civilization. What would companies these days do in a Star Wars game? 50% chance a Star Wars game would visit three or four existing worlds like Tatooine again, and be peppered by unlikely cameos, as if Tatooine is the centre of the universe, and not one backwater among billions of planets. I really miss the logical world building that went into older games.
 

Trash

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Just out of interest to anyone here, I discovered the names of a couple of other forgotten space RPGs from the 1980-1990s Belle Époque of the RPG genre, courtesy of The CRPG Addict. Although I wasn't sure whether to include some of the lower ones on the list, which lean toward a starship sim, the ones nearer the top are more traditional:

- Chaos in Andromeda

- Antares


- 2088: The Cryllan Mission

- Sentinel Worlds

- Space Rogue

- Star Command

Just for completeness, I'll list others already mentioned earlier in the thread:

- Starflight 1

- Starflight 2: Trade Routes of the Cloud Nebula

- MegaTraveller 1: The Zhodani Conspiracy

- MegaTraveller 2: Quest for the Ancients

- Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday

- Buck Rogers: Matrix Cubed


And just for even more completeness, let's mention the couple of upcoming indie RPGs:

- Stellar Tactics

- Colony Ship: A Post-Earth Role Playing Game

Nice list. Back in the day developers where way more willing to experiment with settings and scope than they do today. Then again, pc gaming and development was a glorified fringe hobby mostly with dev costs really not being all that high. So people had the opportunity to toy around. Starflight, Megatraveler and Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday where my introduction to the sf rpg genre. And I loved them. These days I've given up on a decent space opera rpg to appear. Anyway, there are a few others than the ones already named in the thread and your post. Though most are a mix-up of different genres, as many games back then where.

Sundog: Frozen legacy was a great game for its day. You ran a character who needed to eat and sleep and had different star systems with planets with cities to explore.

large.5adf20221718c_SundogFrozenLegacy.jpg.ffb5fbf06df5267e710f0c5d01811cbe.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SunDog:_Frozen_Legacy


Whale's Voyage is a blobber set in a far future setting. At first you're stranded on one planet but as you manage to get your ship in working order you can explore the solar system. There apparantly is a sequel, but I never played it.

whales-voyage-01.jpg


https://www.mobygames.com/game/whales-voyage


Sentinel Worlds: Future Magic also mixes several genres with rpg, space trader and shoot 'em up influences. Reminded me of Starflight when I played it. Had a sequel called Hard Nova.

634383-sentinel-worlds-i-future-magic-dos-screenshot-you-face-a-bear.png


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinel_Worlds_I:_Future_Magic


B.A.T. and B.A.T. 2 where a bizarre rpg/adventure hybrid in which you played as a sf 007. Amazing graphics for the time but rather crap gameplay. Still, I loved the atmosphere as a kid. Never got far into them though.

5.png


https://www.abandonwaredos.com/abandonware-game.php?abandonware=B.A.T.+2+:+The+Koshan+Conspiracy&gid=972


There's probably more but these ones made the biggest impression on me back then. I also defenitely remember playing two (original and sequel) black and white colored space opera rpg's where you where on an investigation. Also played an adventure game where you have to transport some dodgy cargo with your spaceship. Can't for the life of me get on their names however. Then again, there were way more games like these with a space opera theme. Check out some abandonware sites and be surprised. Makes the current crop seem really bare.

EDIT: The adventure game was Suspicious Cargo. Here's an old review. It was a pretty and quite fun game, though I kept dying a lot in it as a kid.

http://amr.abime.net/review_6192
 
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Grauken

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I've always wondered about the lack of good space opera RPGs myself, and my pet theory is that for fantasy the general shape of RPGs has been cracked long ago. You need a map for overland travel, some dungeons to explore, maybe some cities. In some cases just dungeons is enough. That's the basic for almost all of them.

When you translate that to scifi with a space map as the comparable element to an overland map in fantasy RPGs, you run into the problem how to present individual worlds. Do you go for whole worlds or do you just go for single locations? And how would you justify not allowing access to whole worlds without rather arbitrary made-up reasons. I think that's the crux no game has solved so far. Either games go for whole worlds, which are most of the time utterly empty and boring, or they have single locations, and it feels oddly constricting

I think scifi games could work much better if they would just focus on single worlds like many fantasy games with the explanation that space travel is prohibitive and there's not FTL, but then it's really hard to do any big space opera
 

DalekFlay

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Shrug, your loss. You don't have to pay attention to the MMO aspect of it at all to enjoy the ~100 singleplayer missions it has. Also has some of the last known recordings of Nimoy as Spock.

I told you before I played and finished the Imperial Assassin campaign. I know how the game plays. It's the same busywork as WoW, just with a better story. If you like MMOs I'm sure it's great, but I vehemently hate their design.
 

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