Why so few games about Magic VS Tech?

[Cryomancer]

Magic and tech aren't that different. The difference is that one deals with supernatural forces and other with natural forces, but arguably, a drone is similar to any magical construct. A grenade launcher is similar to fireball. Some "doom clones" are magical(eg - Hexen and Heretic) and are quite similar to Doom. The Bone Shards spell in Hexen is not different than a machine gun in a shooter. The unique difference is that one uses powder to launch the projectile, the other uses magic.

In world of darkness, you have the technocracy which are the main antagonists to the mages. How mages deal with increased tech power mainly in a world where they are persecuted can be a interesting question. Most games which are Urban fantasy don't take into consideration this. For eg, the vampire hunters in VtMB uses conventional weapons to fight humans. IMO they should be using dragon's breath shotguns, incendiary ammo, incendiary traps, holy water, true faith and so on. Would be interesting to see how elder vampires(and older) which are used to medieval technology(or even pre civilization technology) react to the new development of firearms. How they react knowing that a kine with a shotgun + dragon's breath can kill or at least deal a very high aggravated damage on then. This is sadly not depicted in the game(I'm not saying that the game is bad. Quite the contrary. Is the best vampire game ever)

If you look to the series "Shadow and Bone", from NetFlix, the development of Firearms made Grisha(the magic users in that universe) less RELATIVE powerful. A relative old officer said that in the past one Grisha worth 50 non magical soldiers. With the development of repeating firearms, they lost their value and now are about 10 soldiers. With more firearms development, Grisha will worth less and less.

At episode 2 of season 1 :

Spoiler

In video games, the unique game which I know that depicts tech X magic is Arcanum and Elex. The game is genial in many aspects. For example, there are guys who decided to use necromancy to reanimate manlets dwarves for mass produce stuff. Essentially having the perfect employee. No fatigue, no strike, no salary, no food, no pause to bathrooms(...). They obviously maintain it as a secret. You also see how each typical fantasy race deals with tech. Elves hate it and like to live in their forests. Dwarves become the engineers. Orcs the brute force workers. Gnomes, the politicians, bankers and metacapitalists and so on. Mechanic wise, if you have too much magical affinity and attempts to use a elephant gun, it can blow up in your face as the supernatural forces interfere with natural forces. Hence high magical affinity guys interferes with a Train engine and are prohibited from using the train.




In Elex, there are technological factions like Clerics and tech hatter factions like the Berserker. I wish that there was more games depicting Tech vs Magic.

 

[Lord_Potato]

Try Farewell to Dragons.

 

[Tyranicon]

In any practical sense, technology devalues traditional magic systems. Therefore magic users will either attempt to control the advancement of technology or try to delay it. If magic can be improved, we will certainly see some kind of arms race.

What is rare is the existence of magic technology. In any setting where magic exists as a fundamental force, people will try to build on it.

 

[J1M]

In any practical sense, technology devalues traditional magic systems. Therefore magic users will either attempt to control the advancement of technology or try to delay it. If magic can be improved, we will certainly see some kind of arms race.

What is rare is the existence of magic technology. In any setting where magic exists as a fundamental force, people will try to build on it.

That's one of the reasons I liked Eberron. Magic was developed to the point where it was commoditized and monopolized by guilds in a capitalistic way.

The general concept is hard to execute, especially if you introduce magic or tech creating zones of nullification for the other. It's pretty silly if hunting a mage suggests strapping on a dozen watches as protection in your setting.

The other risk you run, which WoW is currently tripping over, is that as the setting ages and explains more things through the lens of science, magic becomes a kind of mundane tech that deals with an additional spiritual power source.

From a gameplay perspective, I like the idea of magical devices providing fun ways to simplify scientific concepts like electricity or gravity to increase emergent environmental gameplay.

 

[Gargaune]

Because it's a pretty silly idea that can very easily give rise to stylistic conflicts and challenges in consistent worldbuilding. You can and often enough do have both in the same setting, but with one clearly being dominant - e.g. Thief is technologically grounded with a splash of the supernatural, and Pillars of Eternity is sorcery-ahoy! with a scientific undercurrent.

When both are as developed and valid, though, it gets difficult to channel specific aesthetic motifs and establish the history and functioning of a setting because you're dealing with different levels of suspension of disbelief. It can quickly become jarring for the player to go along with your "crystals" and "ritual energies" or whatnot, essentially make-believe concepts, when they're sitting side by side with notions people can realistically relate to, like electronics and thermodynamics.

 

[purupuru]

Magic and tech aren't that different

I think that's actually one of the reasons that there aren't many games about magic vs tech. If you really want to go for this theme then you want magic and tech routes to play and feel drastically different, but unfortunately in most video games a fireball is little more than a reskinned and more powerful molotov cocktail.

 

[Cryomancer]

technology devalues traditional magic systems. Therefore magic users will either attempt to control the advancement of technology or try to delay it. If magic can be improved, we will certainly see some kind of arms race.

Nice point. I also agree that tech devalues traditional magic. But that can be interesting. Just imagine if you have a guild of evoker specialized magic users seeing their monopoly over mass destruction being shattered by the development of artillery and conflicts over it starting. That can be interesting. Making a analogy with IRL, how longbow archers who trained his entire life to accurately fire the heaviest longbow reacted to a mere commoner in a day becoming crossbowman?!

That's one of the reasons I liked Eberron. Magic was developed to the point where it was commoditized and monopolized by guilds in a capitalistic way.

Yep. Eberron and Numeria(Pathfinder) seems amazing places with high magical and high tech.

When both are as developed and valid, though, it gets difficult to channel specific aesthetic motifs and establish the history and functioning of a setting because you're dealing with different levels of suspension of disbelief. It can quickly become jarring for the player to go along with your "crystals" and "ritual energies" or whatnot, essentially make-believe concepts, when they're sitting side by side with notions people can realistically relate to, like electronics and thermodynamics.

Both can be relative dominant. Look to Shadow and Bones for eg. Grishas are rare. Before the development of repeating rifles, is said thta one Grisha is in average deadly as 50 soldiers. In some countries, Grishas are persecuted, in other are tolerated as longs they serve in army and the fear of Grisha lead to more "non Grisha" to wanna to develop more technology, so they can fight Grisha with less causalities. After "lever action" rifles become common, Grisha lost a lot of his value. To the point that the general mentioned that 10 Grisha per enemy soldier killed is a "good" thing.

The magic of Grisha is only called "small science", large scale reality warping magic per say exists in Grishaverse but are way deadlier. It happens once during the entire season and it has dangerous consequences, dividing a country and teh consequences of it preserves for many generations. Heres is a video

Spoiler

In video games, as I've mentioned, we have Arcanum. Arcanum depicted well with magic X tech.

I think that's actually one of the reasons that there aren't many games about magic vs tech. If you really want to go for this theme then you want magic and tech routes to play and feel drastically different, but unfortunately in most video games a fireball is little more than a reskinned and more powerful molotov cocktail.

Well said. But yuo still can make a interesting game, about magocracy VS "technocracy", or like Law X Chaos, where magic users are all very chaotic and tech users all very lawful. The main advantage of a fireball spell over a molotov? The fireball caster can't be disarmed.

 

[Gargaune]

Both can be relative dominant. Look to Shadow and Bones for eg. Grishas are rare. Before the development of repeating rifles, is said thta one Grisha is in average deadly as 50 soldiers. In some countries, Grishas are persecuted, in other are tolerated as longs they serve in army and the fear of Grisha lead to more "non Grisha" to wanna to develop more technology, so they can fight Grisha with less causalities. After "lever action" rifles become common, Grisha lost a lot of his value.

The magic of Grisha is only called "small science", large scale reality warping magic per say exists in Grishaverse but are way deadlier. It happens once during the entire season and it has dangerous consequences, dividing a country and teh consequences of it preserves for many generations. Heres is a video
Show Spoiler



In video games, as I've mentioned, we have Arcanum. Arcanum deal well with magic X tech.

I didn't say it can't be done, I said it's difficult to do well. It's a hard sell telling the player that this one army can summon "like, the primordial energies of the fire plane, dude" to hurl spheres of flame at their enemies, something you have to accept at face value and not ask questions, when G.I. Joe's riding a chopper, dropping napalm bombs two streets over, a technology which you at least have a pretty good general awareness of. And if you do try to explain the fireball, you risk ending up with midichlorians.

Like I said, different levels of suspension of disbelief. It works fine enough when either science or the supernatural is the exception to the rule, the player (or viewer or reader) can roll with it, but when both are on equal footing, it takes a lot of work and talent to reconcile them to the point the player can take your setting seriously. And that challenge explains why there are "so few" games that try it.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

In video games, the unique game which I know that depicts tech X magic is Arcanum and Elex.

You could try Ultima VII, Final Fantasy VI, or Beyond Zork. Neither is as good as Arcanum or ELEX though.

 

[PorkaMorka]

Arcanum's "technology" was high tech gadgetry that borders on science fiction... or magic.

Like a Tophat of Magnetic Inversion, or a staff that shoots lightning bolts.

Opinions may vary, but this kind of gadget actually feels more cheesy than generic low fantasy magic, hard to say why, but we know that this is not how technology works.

Actual medieval through early renaissance technology isn't that exciting. It would only gradually disrupt a fantasy setting and doesn't necessarily invalidate magic. It might actually invalidate the plate mail clad fighter instead.

Early firearms don't change that much for a mage, because he already has to use magic to protect himself from crossbows, etc. He already acts as if he can't afford to get hit. Meanwhile, the fighter becomes much more fragile.

It could be interesting, but not sure it's worth making that the focus of an entire setting.

 

[Ol' Willy]

We need Dark Tower setting RPG

 

[Daemongar]

In video games, the unique game which I know that depicts tech X magic is Arcanum and Elex.

You could try Ultima VII, Final Fantasy VI, or Beyond Zork. Neither is as good as Arcanum or ELEX though.

Just jumping in to point out that yes, Ultima VII is better than Arcanum but I'll admit would be hard to compare to Elex. In combat they are about equal, but for everything else theres a huge difference.

 

[c2007]

In Piers Anthony's "Incarnations of Immortality" series (7 books, six and 7 aren't nearly as good as the initial 5), technology and magic are rivals in an arms race of sorts for the general public, but there is the S-tier Incarnations that meld the two because they're demigods.

Some of the Xanth series touches on this as well.

If you like to read.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

people who want magic don't want tech in their games.
people who want tech don't want magic in their games.

 

[CodexTotalWar]

The Shadowrun series isn't exactly Magic vs. Tech (at least not as its primary theme), but there is a certain tension between the two, with a heavy dose of Cyberpunk. Might be up your alley.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Because magic is just insufficiently understood technology.

 

[plem]

The Age of Decadence has an interesting take on this, where the world has forgotten the knowledge it once had to such an extent that old technology is interpreted as magical, i.e activating an old smelter requires reading a "spell" which is really just a set of instructions for operating the machine

 

[Semiurge]

The Thief series, anyone? None of the installments feature a strife between magic and technology, but all focus on one of the three individual aspects of the city; chaos (magic), order (tech), and balance (keepers).

 

[Norfleet]

Probably because actual technolergy is either uninteresting from a gameplay standpoint, or overpowers. An arquebus is not a serious contender to fireballs and lightning bolts in a lower-tech setting, while a thermonuclear warhead or a grenade launcher makes the offensive power of lightning bolts and fireballs somewhat less relevant. Moving outside this realm puts you into magic vs. magic posing as technolergy. Once your characters are shooting each other with phasers and photon torpedoes, moving about with hyperspace and warp drives, and defending themselves with force fields, you're back to using magic again.

 

[laclongquan]

Magic and tech aren't that different. The difference is that one deals with supernatural forces and other with natural forces, but arguably, a drone is similar to any magical construct. A grenade launcher is similar to fireball.

This show you have NO understanding of the difference between the two.

There is many difference between a straight line of fire rocket, a lobbing-over grenade and a plasma balls, thus there's that much difference with a fireball.

There's a difference between a straight stealth radar-only drone, and shooting drone, and a suicidal drone, a walking robot etc... and a familiar.

Did magic settings support such difference? Yes. Did game support such difference in magic? No.

Why? Because magic-setting players are dumb and not really like to play games with such huge diversified aspects of magic.

Case in point: OP is such dumb player who can not realize the differences.

 

[Cryomancer]

This show you have NO understanding of the difference between the two.

I din't said that there are no difference. Only that the difference between the two is not THAT big and that magical doom clones plays relative similar to doom. I can say that the difference of a Arbalest and a Arquebus is not that big, as both fire a projectile. Obviously there are a lot of differences. Same with a bone spear in diablo 2 and a ballista firing a spear. Both are vastly different, but the gameplay impact is not that different.

Because magic is just insufficiently understood technology.

I Disagree. How you would categorize a technomancer then?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

How you would categorize a technomancer then?

Someone on the cusp of being able to understand magic as technology but still not there yet. Close enough to harness it and augment it with existing technology.

 

[Norfleet]

There is many difference between a straight line of fire rocket, a lobbing-over grenade and a plasma balls, thus there's that much difference with a fireball.

Okay, then. What's the difference between a pot that contains an angry fire elemental that I can throw to cause an explosion and a hand grenade? In both cases, I have a thrown-arc AOE weapon. What's the difference between a wagon powered by demons trapped in a box and a car, other than that the government can't turn the former off when they decide you're too drunk? What's the difference between a wall of force caused by a wizard chanting unpronounceable gibberish and a forcefield caused by an outraged Scotsman chanting "WE CANNA DO IT, CAPTAIN! WE DINNAE HAVE THE POWER!"? No, wait, don't answer that one, they're definitely the same thing.

 

[laclongquan]

This show you have NO understanding of the difference between the two.

I din't said that there are no difference. Only that the difference between the two is not THAT big

You still dont understand that difference, do you?

With a straight line of eyesight fireball and rocket, if there's an obstacle between the two it would be disabled, blocked, uneffective to target

With a lobbing over grenade that can bounce around, an obstacle is not that much of an obstacle.

And a critical difference, unsaid in game, is this: a rocket/grenade has cost. Once used, it's gone, shooting rocket = burning money. With fireball there's no cost associated except maybe time to regenerate (sleep, rest, etc). There's no material cost to it~

Why is the difference so big? Because magic players wont permit devs to differentiate, to increase cost to magic usage.

 

[Cryomancer]

And a critical difference, unsaid in game, is this: a rocket/grenade has cost. Once used, it's gone, shooting rocket = burning money. With fireball there's no cost associated except maybe time to regenerate (sleep, rest, etc). There's no material cost to it~

I mentioned it, that you can disarm a guy with a grenade but not with a fireball spell. But a lot of spells do have material component and some times are quite expensive. Anyway, I din't said "magic is exactly like tech", I said "magic is similar to tech".