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Why first person perspective is becoming rarer and rarer among RPGs?

Joined
Nov 23, 2017
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StarCraft Cartoon looks like they ported someone's Newgrounds Flash StarCraft clone from 2002 into the actual game. I'm guess the idea was to appeal to kids playing Among Us, also maybe Fall Guys...the hot games of 2020. Maybe missed the boat on jumping on the hot thing there.

 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
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They probably didn't have the time to dedicate to console programming since they were already struggling with financial problems then. 3DO notably went bankrupt in the development of M&M9 and SSI was disbanded soon after being acquired by Ubisoft. It also doesn't seem like consoles were a good thing to get into at the time because most consoles were either Obscure, region specific things, or in the case of the US; their companies went bankrupt and it wasn't guaranteed that they'd be able to get customers for their games. The consoles that did survive seemed to be Japanese consoles with the like Nintendo with Final Fantasy or SEGA with Dragon Slayer coming out on their consoles almost the same time as their consoles were being released. By time most western developers where at that point, either consoles were dead in their country and DOS was the medium of choice or the only consoles were Japanese ones starting to get into their markets which likely would have been fairly difficult to get licensing for just due to language and international business constraints alone. It also makes sense since the biggest companies that seemed to survive at least up to 2003-2004 were Black Isle, Bioware, and Blizzard making games all on PC and not making any console releases until later. There wasn't a big western console that could stay in the market until the Xbox (2001).
Nintendo released its Famicom/NES in the United States in 1986 (a limited release occurred the previous year) and had an instant success. Although the Sega Master System was a fairly obscure competitor, that company achieved fairly rapid success with the Sega Genesis (Megadrive in Japan and Europe) that released in America in 1989, probably outselling its rival the Nintendo Super Famicom/NES that released in America in 1991. Later, the Sony Playstation, which released in the United States in 1995, dominated its generation of consoles in America as elsewhere.

The problem for American RPG developers was that the American audience of these consoles at first skewed decidedly younger than PC gaming, with only a limited audience for RPGs on the NES, although there were ports of several classics such as Pool of Radiance. In the era of the SNES/Genesis, the JRPG subgenre caught on, but the American audience for other RPG genres on console remained limited through the 1990s and the Playstation era (5th generation of consoles).

Interplay, incidentally, seems to have started developing for consoles (specifically, the NES) in 1990, though it didn't release an RPG for consoles until an adaptation of The Fellowship of the Ring in 1994 (different from the earlier computer RPG). One of Interplay's three Planescape games under development was intended to have been a Playstation RPG modeled after King's Field.

SSI had Westwood develop two D&D-licensed games (Order of the Griffon and Warriors of the Eternal Sun) for console systems in 1992.

Blizzard was founded in 1991, began developing for consoles by 1993, and Diablo was released on the Playstation in early 1998, 15 months after its Windows PC release.
 
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Why we are having so few RPGs in FP? My guess? Consoles + The fact that immersion is no longer valued by gamers and rpg developers.

There's 7-8 Blobbers being worked at right now.

Call of Saregnar, one Hybrid from Exiled Kingdoms dev, 2/3 M&M III like games (The Darkness Below, "Amberland 2", some other one?), one Wizardry 8 inspired one, one M&M 6 like one and The Quest 2 (the only RT one of the bunch) and the ones I forgot.
Beautiful looking games. Very good games too, but not quite as good as I wanted them to be.
 

Mary Sue Leigh

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This doesn't really go here but man, couldn't agree more on what was said that older PC games used to be simulations.
As a little child, watching my older cousins play Xcom, I had no idea of all the simulation aspects and the depth it had. UFOs don't fly around randomly, they have specific missions and failure to stop them may have a variety of consequences down the line. Drop ships start terror attacks, supply craft build and resupply alien bases, scout vessels spot Xcom bases and alert strike craft etc.
Soldiers increase stats they use such as energy goes up by using it a lot.
When ships go down, the amount of alloys and elerium retrieved corresponds directly to the amount of how much is still intact after the crash and subsequent ground mission (where more alloy or elerium "blocks" might be destroyed by explosives). Apocalypse cranked this immense depth of simulation up even further, but that's for another rant..
That's what was so jarring with the Firaxicom which had absolutely none of this. Missions appear randomly and you see beforehand the plain penalties for not doing them. Soldiers have levels and classes, and you allocate stats manually as you see fit. UFO have fixed rewards iirc and the UFO missions are straight corridor maps. Aliens don't walk around during hidden movement at all, trying to scout and flank or anything. They are completely immobile sitting in little groups until discovered, where they get to act immediately for some reason, and they don't usually try to get away and hide again even if outgunned. There's exactly one scripted base defense and attack event, respectively, because "Xcom gotta have that and we don't know how the mechanics worked". It's like if the child I was made the game design, without understanding the simulation aspects one bit.
 

octavius

Arcane
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Never liked first person perspective in video games, it's impossible to properly represent a first person view without VR. Human field of view is significantly larger than you can represent using standard perspective projection and a single camera without extensive distortion. There are some tricks to work around this(curvilinear projection) but are rarely used, most likely due to being unknown, and because it would probably feel wrong to a lot of gamers now despite it being closer to being right.
e.g., panini projection, which is fairly optimal for human FOV.

Just imagine your character are one of the cool kids who always use a hood.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
90-100 FOV first person is best. 80 FOV is for consolefags and way too low.

The lack of peripheral vision doesn't bother me because I go through life with tunnel vision anyway :M
 
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Nov 23, 2017
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My guess would be the inherent expectations of what comes with the first person view as time went on and first person shooters started having stuff like mouse looking, aiming, and just more free control over your moment in general...so, not consoles. More that they were falling behind what first person shooters on PC were doing and starting to feel like old hat; like Might and Magic IV does not seem like a game coming two years after Duke Nukem 3D.
In crpgs, it seems like the top down or at one of the varying 3rd perspective angles for a third person party-based gameplay opened up the potential for more complex gameplay than what was possible in something like M&M's, Wizardry, or Goldbox games. For D&D games, this meant the possibility for closer emulation of combat which was one of the goals of crpg development. Unfortunately, that stopped just after ToEE and KotC and there wasn't an attempt to really emulate a tabletop ruleset until the Shadowrun games, Kingmaker (though you needed mods to get the game to be an appropriate emulation of the tabletop ruleset; the turnbased mod before the less functional turnbased mode was released and the closer to tabletop mod or some other later mods), Solasta, and KotC2.

Yeah, part of it is Blobbers did fall out of vogue for RPGS with isometric or isometric like views. But I think that's more to do with Blobbers being too stuck in the past and not really innovating at all when it came to presentation and how the games felt, and didn't really have anything to do with more complex gameplay or whatever.

I know this is RPG Codex and all but how the fuck does one land on fucking consoles as the reason why they went away? JRPGs were probably hanging on to Blobbers and first person blobber elements long after the major PC Blobber RPGs were. If anything those Western blobber developers should've been able to make some moolah while they were still around in the PSX and PS2 era with Blobbers on consoles.
They probably didn't have the time to dedicate to console programming since they were already struggling with financial problems then. 3DO notably went bankrupt in the development of M&M9 and SSI was disbanded soon after being acquired by Ubisoft. It also doesn't seem like consoles were a good thing to get into at the time because most consoles were either Obscure, region specific things, or in the case of the US; their companies went bankrupt and it wasn't guaranteed that they'd be able to get customers for their games. The consoles that did survive seemed to be Japanese consoles with the like Nintendo with Final Fantasy or SEGA with Dragon Slayer coming out on their consoles almost the same time as their consoles were being released. By time most western developers where at that point, either consoles were dead in their country and DOS was the medium of choice or the only consoles were Japanese ones starting to get into their markets which likely would have been fairly difficult to get licensing for just due to language and international business constraints alone. It also makes sense since the biggest companies that seemed to survive at least up to 2003-2004 were Black Isle, Bioware, and Blizzard making games all on PC and not making any console releases until later. There wasn't a big western console that could stay in the market until the Xbox (2001).

I'm not really sure what you mean when you say consoles were obscure at the time. I'm not saying they should've started on consoles pre the NES or something. But in the PSX era, it is odd you saw less of these western RPGs (the first three Might & Magic games got console releases, Westwood made Warriors of the Eternal Sun for the Genesis, and there are Wizardry games on the SNES) making their way onto consoles after something like FF7 comes out and sold over a million in America in a week...those are numbers a CRPG in the '90s would be lucky to make in a year. I'm not saying they could've sold FF7 numbers or anything, but I know if I was a western developer making RPGs in the late '90s I sure as shit would've been paying attention to the PSX as a viable platform for RPGs when I started seeing those FF7 numbers. Instead it seems they abandoned what could've been a huge source of revenue right when that market actual started paying off for the type of thing they were trying to sell.

Like I'm looking at a press release for the Might and Magic series as a whole right now (so stuff like Heroes too) from March of '99, since this has kind of made me wonder exactly how well Might and Magic sold, and the whole of Might and Magic up to that point sold something over 4 million world wide. At that moment that'd be 2 Heroes games, 7 Might and Magic games, and the World of Xeen release. Looking at another press release from '99 that says the Heroes series has sold 1.5 million; that doesn't work into the 4 million exactly though since the Heroes specific one is post Heroes 3 coming out in '99, and the overall series numbers one is right before in come out in '99; but it gives you somewhat of a picture of who well just the 7 Might and Magic games sold. If they'd of made a cool looking Might and Magic blobber (or Heroes game ) of some kind on the PSX in like '99, I'm guessing it would've sold better than any Might and Magic game they released on PC.

- Blizzard started as a console developer, and Warcaft 2, Diablo, and StarCraft all have console releases. It's actually kind of a surprise they dipped out of consoles like they did during the original Xbox and PS2 era. They did however announce that StarCraft Ghost game that never came out for consoles in 2002.
- BioWare made MDK2 on the Dreamcast. MDK2 would've come out the same year KotOR was announced.
- The Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance was published under Interplay's Black Isle Studios label in 2002, and the studio would later make Dark Alliance 2. Black Isle however is part of Interplay and Interplay did release console games, in fact their most well known games were probably console games like ClayFighter and MDK. The weird thing about Interplay is when they came back to consoles when they were dying and started releasing stuff with the Baldur's Gate and Fallout name on it they weren't even kind of in line with the PC games. Like I'd imagine if they'd of released a proper Fallout on the PSX, PS2, or XBOX sometime between '98 and 2004 that probably would've done better than Fallout, Fallout 2, Tactics, and that shitty looking console Brotherhood of Steel game that just made you wonder what exactly the fuck Interplay was thinking.
 

Darth Canoli

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Perched on a tree
Call of Saregnar - demo.
Amberland - full game.
The quest - full game.
So one demo out of 8 games, as I wasn't talking about amberland but Amberland II (not in dev yet) and The Quest II (no demo and different gameplay and engine).

You're such a genius to be able to judge 8 non released games out of one demo of a pre-alpha version of one of them.

Congratulations, you just earned a spot for life in the General discussions forum!
 
Developer
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Call of Saregnar - demo.
Amberland - full game.
The quest - full game.
So one demo out of 8 games, as I wasn't talking about amberland but Amberland II (not in dev yet) and The Quest II (no demo and different gameplay and engine).

You're such a genius to be able to judge 8 non released games out of one demo of a pre-alpha version of one of them.

Congratulations, you just earned a spot for life in the General discussions forum!
Why the sperg out? I was thinking that given those previous games/demos are pretty good then the next should also be.
 
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Why the sperg out? I was thinking that given those previous games/demos are pretty good then the next should also be.

It's not quite what I've read.


Beautiful looking games. Very good games too, but not quite as good as I wanted them to be.

Aka, stating games you can't possibly have played yet are not good enough...
Didn't realise I had to be so explicit.
What I meant was the previous/demos were pretty good. So the final/next should also be good. Hopefully even a bit better than the existing work.
 

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