Why did Real Time Strategy genre die out?

[HeatEXTEND]

Because of Koreans.
And because it's not a fucking strategy game if dexterity is the most important attribute.

I get your sentiment but just because someone else is very good at something that doesn't mean you yourself shouldn't do it for fun.

 

[vota DC]

I fucking hated that upkeep shit in WC3, seemed like I'm just being punished for having good macro. Also not a fan of hero units. SC2 definitely suits me better.

Like i said, without upkeep losing a single skirmish would have meant instant game over. Maybe that's fine in a game like Starcraft which is more fast paced but WC3 was intentionally designed to be more of a slow burn. Like i pointed out earlier, during the first two minutes of the game you are essentially locked into producing your hero and unless the enemy base is really close the next several minutes are spend creeping around. So aside for some scouting and maybe a bit of early harassement that's a solid five minutes you are spending basically playing single player and then maybe you get into your first big skirmish and suddenly you lost too many units and the match is basically over because there is no way for you to recoup from that. Wouldn't make for a good game since it would be the same outcome every match. Spend five minutes setting up your base, creeping and scouting around then lose the first fight and quit, rinse and repeat for every match.

Personally, i think WC3 is one of the most brilliant games Blizzard has ever designed, possibly the best they ever did. It's a fast paced RTS game with integrated RPG elements that even plays like an RPG during online matches. It's fine to prefer Starcraft as a matter of principle but WC3 feels more daring and it's more impressive that they were able to pull it off. It was a big gamble for them try something so radically different and counter intuitive given the nature of RTS games.

Even if you prefer the more macro oriented nature of Starcraft you have to appreciate how WC3 managed to really set itself apart from that, where as it could have easily just been a fantasy reskin of the former.

Still a mine battle means that after a skirmish you have to secure the place and dig the resources and the enemy can still conquer it.
In Warcraft 3 your hero get XP for killing the other hero in skirmish, then gets further XP for killing neutral creatures and those resources are instantly awarded.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Like if you play football, weight training won't make you good at it, but can give you an edge over people of similar skill.

Yeah, because weight training isn't the relevant skill. Throw an olympic sprinter with next to no experience playing football into a game of amateurs that have played dozens of games and see how much their skills matter when a dude that can run literal circles around them homes in on the ball like a fucking missile. No amount of kicking accuracy is going to win that game.

If you wanted to, you could easily boil down economy management in Civilization too into 10 bullet points. Doesn't mean there aren't nuances beyond that.

What nuance, exactly, do you think is going to enable someone to click 3 times faster in order to facilitate a reaver/immortal shuffle? "Oh wow, I picked it up AFTER it got shot, when I should have picked it up BEFORE it got shot. Wow, lesson learned! I'm really improving here!" This is like saying that learning the nuances of running is what enables an olympic athlete to run faster than a mall cop.

Knowing the precise range and firing rate of turrets or the most efficient build order to get X units by the 8 minute mark is not the meat of an RTS. It should be, and could be with sufficient QoL, but it's really not. Shit build order with high APM will stomp all over good build order with low APM any day, because you can't follow a build order with low APM to begin with unless you're playing without an opponent.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I used to be really good at shuffling reavers around lol. One of my favored Starcraft units.

And yes, it feels really good when you can pull that stuff off.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I was pretty great at advanced tactics like making 30 mutalisks, binding them to a key and then like, sending them all together to attack things. Sometimes while they were doing that, I managed to sprout some zerglings.

Another one of my favourite strategies was making a dozen siege tanks and then moving them up and putting them in siege mode. Sometimes I would also have another stack of marines or something running around in the general vicinity to shoot things.

 

[Blutwurstritter]

I was pretty great at advanced tactics like making 30 mutalisks, binding them to a key and then like, sending them all together to attack things. Sometimes while they were doing that, I managed to sprout some zerglings.

Another one of my favourite strategies was making a dozen siege tanks and then moving them up and putting them in siege mode. Sometimes I would also have another stack of marines or something running around in the general vicinity to shoot things.

I am not so sure if its a good idea to speak so openly about your abuse of the easy AI given the current technological developments.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I was pretty great at advanced tactics like making 30 mutalisks, binding them to a key and then like, sending them all together to attack things. Sometimes while they were doing that, I managed to sprout some zerglings.

Another one of my favourite strategies was making a dozen siege tanks and then moving them up and putting them in siege mode. Sometimes I would also have another stack of marines or something running around in the general vicinity to shoot things.

I am not so sure if its a good idea to speak so openly about your abuse of the easy AI given the current technological developments.

I think the AI abused my 3 APM max speed, tbf.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I was pretty great at advanced tactics like making 30 mutalisks, binding them to a key and then like, sending them all together to attack things.

Reminds me of a trick I learned with them- telling your flock of dozens of mutalisks to follow a single one, and then sending that one in first towards the enemy base after having it patrol back and forth a bit. It stacked all the mutalisks right on top of eachother so they'd all fire at once at the same target, deleting it instantly. Obviously this would get them deleted by a single splash attack, but it was useful in some of the UMS games I played, either for concentrating fire to help win a fight vs a more spread out cloud of mutalisks (or wraiths or marines or whatever) or as a means of sending more than 120 units somewhere at the same time, since that was the limit for control groups.

You could actually do something similar, albeit one unit at a time, in Dune 2 back in the day on the genesis to get around the fact you had no control groups and could only select one unit at a time.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I was pretty great at advanced tactics like making 30 mutalisks, binding them to a key and then like, sending them all together to attack things.

Reminds me of a trick I learned with them- telling your flock of dozens of mutalisks to follow a single one, and then sending that one in first towards the enemy base after having it patrol back and forth a bit. It stacked all the mutalisks right on top of eachother so they'd all fire at once at the same target, deleting it instantly. Obviously this would get them deleted by a single splash attack, but it was useful in some of the UMS games I played, either for concentrating fire to help win a fight vs a more spread out cloud of mutalisks (or wraiths or marines or whatever) or as a means of sending more than 120 units somewhere at the same time, since that was the limit for control groups.

You could actually do something similar, albeit one unit at a time, in Dune 2 back in the day on the genesis to get around the fact you had no control groups and could only select one unit at a time.

In my years of intense study of RTS strategies, I learned that you can push "A" and then click somewhere and your guys will attack stuff on their way somewhere so you don't have to keep watching them. I mean, I probably will anyway, but you don't have to.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I was pretty great at advanced tactics like making 30 mutalisks, binding them to a key and then like, sending them all together to attack things.

Reminds me of a trick I learned with them- telling your flock of dozens of mutalisks to follow a single one, and then sending that one in first towards the enemy base after having it patrol back and forth a bit. It stacked all the mutalisks right on top of eachother so they'd all fire at once at the same target, deleting it instantly. Obviously this would get them deleted by a single splash attack, but it was useful in some of the UMS games I played, either for concentrating fire to help win a fight vs a more spread out cloud of mutalisks (or wraiths or marines or whatever) or as a means of sending more than 120 units somewhere at the same time, since that was the limit for control groups.

You could actually do something similar, albeit one unit at a time, in Dune 2 back in the day on the genesis to get around the fact you had no control groups and could only select one unit at a time.

In my years of intense study of RTS strategies, I learned that you can push "A" and then click somewhere and your guys will attack stuff on their way somewhere so you don't have to keep watching them. I mean, I probably will anyway, but you don't have to.

Rookie mistake. The optimal strategy is to send your trike through the enemy base without attack anything, park it just behind their construction yard, and watch them blow up their own irreplacable building that lets them build more buildings with their own tanks. Also, having your tanks roll over enemy Sadakaur troops instead of shooting at them is both more effective, funny, and makes a great sound effect!

 

[mediocrepoet]

Rookie mistake. The optimal strategy is to send your trike through the enemy base without attack anything, park it just behind their construction yard, and watch them blow up their own irreplacable building that lets them build more buildings with their own tanks. Also, having your tanks roll over enemy Sadakaur troops instead of shooting at them is both more effective, funny, and makes a great sound effect!

That's hilarious.

RTS are in general, a genre I wish I was better at, but never have been. Something about switching between micro and macro in real time is brutal. If it gets more demanding than sending around a few doomstacks of whatever, I probably want to play a TBS instead.

I still play them sometimes because some of the campaigns are interesting or fun, like all the C&C live action cutscenes, etc.

Still, re: this topic, it's seemed to me like the genre is starting to resurface these days. At least a little bit, with things being tested out, possibly like CRPGs did a few years back.

 

[Borelli]

I used to be really good at shuffling reavers around lol. One of my favored Starcraft units.

And yes, it feels really good when you can pull that stuff off.

My first online loss was a reaver drop (i was Terran). Starcraft equivalent of getting beaten first day in prison.
To this day TvP is my most hated matchup.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Something about switching between micro and macro in real time is brutal. If it gets more demanding than sending around a few doomstacks of whatever, I probably want to play a TBS instead.

Pretty much my feeling as well. I imagine the genre landscape would look totally different these days if all the TBS games had better setups for multiplayer back in the day, instead of PBEM or sitting around doing nothing during other people's turns.

I spent a great many hours playing various UMS maps in Broodwar of various types. There were some really creative ones in there, including open world rpgs, a setup for letting someone function as the DM of a DnD campaign, conversions of card games like MTG or YuGiOh, vast, thematic wargames set in the earlier ages of Lord of the Rings, the 4 player vs AI precursors to DotA that were just, so god damned awesome I wish they'd become a genre instead.

I learned so many nuances of the engine and gameplay mechanics back then. I can still remember details like firebats hitting 3 times for half their listed damage, the damage ratios explosive and concussive damage dealt vs large, medium and small units and which were categorized as each, even stuff like how damage from nukes was calculated. Did you know, a zergling with 255 armour and 9999 HP will die to several nukes, but one with only 250 HP will just shrug them off like it's nothing, because the nuke damage is increased vs high HP targets but doesn't ignore armour? Also, of the various models for the ghosts, the default buildable one is the only one with an extra unit of range, while kerrigan was the only one with a faster firing rate. I took a lot of satisfaction of winning fights by knowing obscure shit like that. Totally worthless in ranked play, of course, where all you need to know is fire bat hurt zergling real good.

 

[Borelli]

I learned so many nuances of the engine and gameplay mechanics back then. I can still remember details like firebats hitting 3 times for half their listed damage, the damage ratios explosive and concussive damage dealt vs large, medium and small units and which were categorized as each, even stuff like how damage from nukes was calculated. Did you know, a zergling with 255 armour and 9999 HP will die to several nukes, but one with only 250 HP will just shrug them off like it's nothing, because the nuke damage is increased vs high HP targets but doesn't ignore armour? Also, of the various models for the ghosts, the default buildable one is the only one with an extra unit of range, while kerrigan was the only one with a faster firing rate. I took a lot of satisfaction of winning fights by knowing obscure shit like that. Totally worthless in ranked play, of course, where all you need to know is fire bat hurt zergling real good.

Which unit can pass between which building is a required reading for playing online.
When magic boxes were first discovered people went crazy, like a super secret scroll with mystical knowledge was discovered instead.

 

[Johannes]

Knowing the precise range and firing rate of turrets or the most efficient build order to get X units by the 8 minute mark is not the meat of an RTS. It should be, and could be with sufficient QoL, but it's really not. Shit build order with high APM will stomp all over good build order with low APM any day, because you can't follow a build order with low APM to begin with unless you're playing without an opponent.

Memorising range or firing rate of turrets being the big skill factor sounds lame as shit. But what do I know, I play such a pussyass casual RTS that it draws the ranges of turrets for everyone to see.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I suddenly have this image of a general with many years of experience and great knowledge of every aspect of the people and equipment under his command being replaced by an auctioneer for his ability to rattle off orders more quickly. That must be what it feels like to be a marine in the world of Starcraft, being told where to go 4 times a second.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

precursors to DotA

AoS nevar forget

My first online loss was a reaver drop

Tanks on Lost Temple natural highground for me

I suddenly have this image of a general with many years of experience and great knowledge of every aspect of the people and equipment under his command being replaced by an auctioneer for his ability to rattle off orders more quickly.

Funny picture but let's not forget that these korean ASL monsters are first and foremost students of the game, speed still comes after.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Funny picture but let's not forget that these korean ASL monsters are first and foremost students of the game, speed still comes after.

I'm sure that's true of the people way at the very top, but it's depressing how often I've seen streamers in masters league that don't know really basic shit that's literally in the tooltips, like what a unit gets bonus damage against or how much damage a spell does.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

I've seen streamers in masters league

There's your problem right there, don't watch twitch streamers
Also in any competition there will always be "brain" and "heart" players, top-top champions almost always have both making them stand out even among those that already stand out.

 

[Johannes]

Knowing exact game rules minutiae isn't always that important in TB games either. You can just learn what works in practice, and it'll be good enough.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I used to be really good at shuffling reavers around lol. One of my favored Starcraft units.

And yes, it feels really good when you can pull that stuff off.

My first online loss was a reaver drop (i was Terran). Starcraft equivalent of getting beaten first day in prison.
To this day TvP is my most hated matchup.

What if that guy was me.

 

[Socrates]

Additionally RTS typically has a higher skill ceiling than other types of genres which tends to scare people curious of the genre away.

Do they though?

In respect of competitive/ranked play, yes I believe so.

 

[Johannes]

Any competitive game worth its salt has an unreachable skill ceiling. How good someone can potentially get, isn't really relevant to how easy a game is to pick up for a newbie.

 

[Caim]

They started to die out because the biggest games petered out. We never had a Warcraft 4 because WoW was printing Blizzard money and Overwatch was more lucrative than Starcraft could ever be, with the first one releasing less than half a year after Legacy of the Void. Age of Empires 3 and Halo Wars underperformed which had Ensemble Studios executed and dropped into a ditch, and Tiberium Twilight likewise had the remains of Westwood devoured by EA.

And when there's no massive billion dollar dollar game to chase after to cash in on the trend, why even start making them?

 

[Lyric Suite]

Heh, didn't Blizzard drop Heroes of the Storm despite the game being fairly well recieved due to the fact it didn't "peform" to their expectations (as in, it wasn't the billion dollars monster they were expecting)?