Why bugthesda can't design a proper gun?

[Cryomancer]

Guns and weapons are not their focus

I know, but make a generic pistol resembling a M92F, generic "heavy" pistol that resembles a Desert Eagle , generic m4 clone assault rifle, generic bullpup rifle, generic SMG that resembles a thompson and that is it. functional weapons without having to focus too much on guns. See guns in 7D2D. I don't expect their games to be Arma 3 tier in regard to guns, only to have a proper gun that would work.

Nowadays in the industry everything seems made out of spite.

Yep. I think that they try to piss off gun enthusiasts as much as possible with their gun design.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Everyone's giving Bethesda too much credit in assuming their ignorance is in good faith.

Lomg before guns get brought up, Bethesda's understanding of the US is clearly Urban Neoliberal. Listen or read any audio log in Fallout 4 or 76 for proof of that.

The guns are a fantasy to these effete, wealthy urbanites. Making them too accurate is giving "The Other Side" what they want, it's *corrupting* them the more they see it. Most of the designers know nothing about guns, they intentionally want to know nothing about guns, and consider knowledge of guns wrong.

I think you are giving them too much credit with this theory.

I'm convinced Bethesda designers are just too low IQ to do anything right no matter what.

 

[KazikluBey]

a "hunting rifle" in .32 cal. To hunt what? Rabbits?

Wikipedia lists 15 .32 caliber ammunition types, among them:

.32 Remington: "this cartridge was once considered to be suitable for game larger than deer and black bear."

.32 Winchester Special: "Ballistics are similar to the .30-30 cartridge and its .308 caliber (7.62 mm) bullet, but the larger diameter .321 (8.15 mm) bullet of the .32 WS will create a larger wound."

I think they'd do just fine for something larger than rabbits and squirrels.

 

[Cryomancer]

Wikipedia lists 15 .32 caliber ammunition types, among them:

Is the same ammo of the weakest revolver in game.

But my point remains the same. Fnv not only has better guns but also better gun progression. Double barrel shotgun -> lever action shotgun -> riot shotgun. And the full auto with dragon breath rounds is like a flame thrower.

Only a nitpick. Dragon breath rounds tends to not cycle properly in semi/full auto shotguns, this is not implemented in new vegas.

 

[Fedora Master]

Why Victor can't into grammar

 

[NecroLord]

Lets look to bugthesda games with guns.

Fallout 3 :

10mm pistol lacks sights, the "chinese pistol" is in fact a mauser C96 but somehow uses 10mm ammo, a "hunting rifle" in .32 cal. To hunt what? Rabbits? SMG is only available in 10mm, no 9mm and .45 ACP the most used cartridges of SMG's IRL. The unique cool weapon in FL3 is the .44 magnum revolver. Everything else is shit.

Fallout new vegas did guns in a much better way and better progression with guns. You start the game with a bolt action rusty 556 rifle and progress to get a 556 carbine and later, can get LMG's and scoped carbines using the same ammo from the beginning of the game, having much better weapons that would't deal 61565x damage. A lot of iconic historical weapons like M1 Garant, brush gun in .45-70, Thompson SMG in a DLC, revolvers in .357 magnum and .44 magnum. You can use tons of different ammo types, including dragon breath rounds in your shotgun and explosive .50 bmg in the AMR.

Fallout 4 :

Guns in FL4 are much worse than in FL3. To have a notion, this is an "assault rifle".

I can't detail FL4 guns as much as FL3 as I only played it 75% off and asked a refund and one of the reasons was the atrocious guns. In a moment, I had a 10mm pistol with a revolver cilinder and a side magazine. WTF!?

Starfield :

I din't played SF. But here is a very long video detailing Starfield atrocious guns.

This is some serious autism...

 

[deuxhero]

Beyond just Bethesda's lack of asthetic sense, the problem is Bethesda's lack of game design sense in other areas. New Vegas's gun selection is highly influenced by how it handled progression and its influences (the obvious "western" stuff, but also the Mojave Campaign~=Vietnam parallels). The Cowboy Repeater exists because 1: It's "western" but more importantly 2: It presents a clear choice for "tier 2" gun users (do you use the Service Rifle for faster follow up shots, greater capacity, and faster reloads or the Cowboy Repeater for more power per shot, superior crit damage, and ability to increase shot power even further with Cowboy?) and compared to "tier 1" guns (the varmint rifle is suppressed and scoped with a faster reload).

Bethesda games, by contrast, lacks any kind of planned out progression since Morrowind (where the gear tiers aren't a linear treadmill, weapon types and subtypes differ more than you think, and weapon weight actually matters a lot more than you think because it determines your fatigue cost per swing). All progression has been streamlined to number gets bigger. No more do you consider if a silver dagger with a petty enchantment on it is actually better than your steel shortsword (getting the short sword's higher damage requires you fully commit to each stab instead of the flurry a dagger can do, while the dagger can attack very fast to trigger the enchantment. If you sell the dagger you could afford to enchant your shortsword so working on ghosts and the like isn't cut and dry) or if your SMG's close range firepower is better than a rifle that can do more damage per cartridge and work at longer range. Gear that's there for "aesthetics" has negligible stats in modern Bethesda games rather than exist on a parallel track like in Morrowind or NV (compare the various styles of Imperial medium armor and bonemold in Morrowind, or the Legion's Cowboy Repeater vs. NCR's Service Rifle). The only downside to better gear in F4 is higher weight, which seems there purely for tradition because its so negligible (at absolute worst upgrading damage for weight breaks even because you're spending less ammo to remove enemies and the ammo has weight). In F4 weapons might as well be universal outside of the Triggerman's SMG (and Triggerman barely exist outside of two quests), and laser weapons being restricted to certain factions. Gunners and Raiders have their own level lists, but the game barely does anything with them besides Raider Armor (a rare good design idea, and it's mostly a re-do of Morrowind's iron/tier 1 gear than an original one: Something that will almost immediately be inferior to the PC's gear and has such terrible weight to value ratio it isn't worth looting so it can arm rabble without giving the PC a bunch of loot)

 

[Cryomancer]

autism

IF you don't wanna read autistic posts, what are you doing in Codex?

All progression has been streamlined to number gets bigger.

YES!!!

Amazing said.

And is not only with guns. See how most racial drawbacks got removed in TES series, how signs can be swaped consequence free and no longer have harsh drawbacks.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Did they fire all their artists after Morrowind?

That game at least had a knewl art direction, far from the mishapen slop that defines all their other games.

It's just amazing to me how a company this big only seems to draw the most inept, mediocre developers possible. I hate 99% of AAA slop but if you look at other franchises you can tell at least the money went somewhere. Assassin's Creed may be a colossal pile of shit of a game but at least it looks professionally made. Same with Cyberpunk. Then you look at Starfield and you wonder where the budget went exactly.

Ironically, it seems Obsidian inherited this aspect given all their latest games look like total shit lmao. Deadfire was the last game they made that actually looked good.

 

[Bulo]

Is there anything they CAN design?

I've always liked mirelurks. They ruined them in 4, just as they ruined the yao guai and deathclaws

 

[Bulo]

The notorious lefty and soy-based lifeform Josh Sawyer is the reason New Vegas has such a good gun sandbox. He went out of his way to familiarise himself with a load of guns as part of NV's pre-production. Wouldn't put it down to politics on Bethesda's part. They're just fucking useless

 

[Cryomancer]

Then you look at Starfield and you wonder where the budget went exactly.

Sweet baby consulting firms, US$300k/y wages for Chief diversity officers, a yacht for the executives, very important stuff.

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

They cant design anything properly, why should guns be an exception?

 

[Hell Swarm]

Having to pay licensing fees for gun designs sucks. They could be intentionally designing things to look weird to avoid paying it and to make it seem more alt history. Dumb or not, Fallout is not the real world and you shouldn't expect an exact replica of everything.

Game design > autistic rivet counting. Some ammo is the 'rare and powerful weapon ammo' so it gets put places it wouldn't fit IRL because it stream lines game design.

 

[Cryomancer]

Having to pay licensing fees for gun designs sucks. They could be intentionally designing things to look weird to avoid paying it and to make it seem more alt history. Dumb or not, Fallout is not the real world and you shouldn't expect an exact replica of everything.

Game design > autistic rivet counting.

The problem of guns in Bugthesda is not that they are worse than toys. Replacing every FL4/3 guns with nerf guns would be a improvement; Imagine if cars in CP77 din't had doors, had 3 wheels, din't had doors, and other nonsense like that. That would suck as much as gun in bugthesda games. There are models in public domain which they could use or look how homeamade guns are made worldwide. Eg :



They would fit a post apocalyptic game. Look to UnderRail. IRL similar weapons like MG-3 are very hard to find and their unique guns looks like proper guns. No one will going to sue you for making a gun similar to SGT-44. And other games make slightly modifications in guns. Example, 7d2d desert vulture, looks almost like a desert eagle but is not DE.

 

[destinae vomitus]

Did they fire all their artists after Morrowind?

The now deceased lead concept artist for Fallout 3 and Skyrim seemed to be more than competent, the same can't be said about the people tasked with realizing what he was capable of envisioning though.

Spoiler

 

[Gerrard]

Who do you think made them? Libtards will start hyperventilating at the sight of a gun, even if it's a picture. This is hardly a Bethesda issue.
Cyberpunk's guns are also designed by people who have no idea how guns work, by the way. Even games like Destiny 2, that are focused around guns.

 

[deuxhero]

Imagine if cars in CP77 din't had doors, had 3 wheels

 

[Cryomancer]

Other thing that I don't get. Why so many games, not only from bugthesda loves to make 9mm SMG better against armor than a .30-06 rifle or .338 lapua magnum rifle? No body armor can protect you from .338 LM and if your fictional power armor can sustain it, a 9mm smg would be a BB gun against it. And not only it is unrealistic but also only serves to REDUCE gameplay variety and viable playstyles. I can get nonsensical stuff made for gameplay proposes like the R700 rifle in VtMB which deals incredible more damage if scoped in.

In therms of armor mechanics in RPG's, I think that DOS2 has the worst and UnderRail has the best. In DOS2 is just a secondary hp bar that prevents CC. In UR,

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

The absence of care, of effort, of attention put into anything.

with a market so large, who needs quality to attract customers?

 

[Stavrophore]

Stylized guns are ok, as long as form does not get in a way of function. Fallout 4 assault rifle make zero sense as a water jacketed rifle. It would be much immersive if they gave it helical magazine on top or the jacket would be using some novel heat absorbing fluid and would be replaced each time you reload.

 

[deuxhero]

Fallout 4's "assault rifle" is actually based on a Lewis Gun's air cooling shroud (firing forces air to rush through it, cooling the gun. It's obviously not a water cooling thing if you see it in anything but perfect side photos), which makes it even more retarded.

 

[SharkClub]

The notorious lefty and soy-based lifeform Josh Sawyer is the reason New Vegas has such a good gun sandbox. He went out of his way to familiarise himself with a load of guns as part of NV's pre-production. Wouldn't put it down to politics on Bethesda's part. They're just fucking useless

An enigmatic moment in game dev. It is extremely rare for someone in modern AAA gamedev to venture outside of their political echochamber hugbox in order to improve the work they're doing on a game. You kind of have to respect Josh for that even if he is soy incarnate. He even defended the inclusion of rape as a subject in New Vegas to his sjw audience when Avellone cucked out on it and bent over backwards trying to appease feminists for his role in creating a game that included the heckin' misogynist Caesar's Legion. New Vegas existing in the form it does with Sawyer at the helm is basically a miracle.

 

[Cryomancer]

Other thing that I don't understand in modern gaming, including bugthesda. Why you can change everything in guns, from the stock to the barrel attachments, but cant use a freaking different ammo type? A shotgun with slugs, with buckshot and with dragon's breath is vastly different. It not only is realistic but also bring more gameplay variety.

Stylized guns are ok, as long as form does not get in a way of function

Agreed.

Also, in a universe with supermutants, I imagine that impractical weapons for us can become the norm for them.

eating a game that included the heckin' misogynist Caesar's Legion. New Vegas existing in the form it does with Sawyer at the helm is basically a miracle.

YES!!!

And if someone remakes New Vegas in current day, the first thing to go out will be the option to join legion.

I don't like the legion, but allowing players to join it is a huge incline. For me, Mr House is the best faction, as he created a oasis of prosperity and protected it from literally nuclear Armageddon, while legion is a bunch of Roman wannabes and NCR will create the same post modernist nonsense in fallout universe, and only exists to tax and regulate people to hell.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Fallout 4's "assault rifle" is actually based on a Lewis Gun's air cooling shroud (firing forces air to rush through it, cooling the gun.

https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail.php?acc=1992-08-157-1

Yup, you're absolutely on the mark there. I'd never heard of the Lewis Gun, but you can't look at the assault rifle and the Lewis Gun and not see the similarities.