Why bugthesda can't design a proper gun?

[Cryomancer]

Lets look to bugthesda games with guns.

Fallout 3 :

10mm pistol lacks sights, the "chinese pistol" is in fact a mauser C96 but somehow uses 10mm ammo, a "hunting rifle" in .32 cal. To hunt what? Rabbits? SMG is only available in 10mm, no 9mm and .45 ACP the most used cartridges of SMG's IRL. The unique cool weapon in FL3 is the .44 magnum revolver. Everything else is shit.

Fallout new vegas did guns in a much better way and better progression with guns. You start the game with a bolt action rusty 556 rifle and progress to get a 556 carbine and later, can get LMG's and scoped carbines using the same ammo from the beginning of the game, having much better weapons that would't deal 61565x damage. A lot of iconic historical weapons like M1 Garant, brush gun in .45-70, Thompson SMG in a DLC, revolvers in .357 magnum and .44 magnum. You can use tons of different ammo types, including dragon breath rounds in your shotgun and explosive .50 bmg in the AMR.

Fallout 4 :

Guns in FL4 are much worse than in FL3. To have a notion, this is an "assault rifle".

I can't detail FL4 guns as much as FL3 as I only played it 75% off and asked a refund and one of the reasons was the atrocious guns. In a moment, I had a 10mm pistol with a revolver cilinder and a side magazine. WTF!?

Starfield :

I din't played SF. But here is a very long video detailing Starfield atrocious guns.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Is there anything they CAN design? Right i can't think of a single thing.

 

[luj1]

Bruh why are you playing Fallout 3-4 and Starfield

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Guns in FL4 are much worse than in FL3. To have a notion, this is an "assault rifle".

Yeah, not quite sure what they were thinking on that thing, but I like that better than the inclusion of all the real world, late 20th century guns in Fallout 2.

 

[Tyranicon]

Like everyone else will probably say, this is one of those questions you can answer with itself.

Q: Why does Bethesda suck at [blank]?

A: Because Bethesda.

 

[spectre]

Gun knowledge isn't as esoteric as it used to be (and a surprising amount of people aren't freedom lovin' americans), but even with teams that mean well, big or small inaccuracies often happen.
So the rifle doesn't use 7.62x54 but 7.62x39, big freaking deal. And 5.56mm being less powerful than a 9mm? You can see which number is bigger, right?
I think people simply concede that a purist will always find something to bitch about (durrr, you don't have to pull back the slide when
reloading and a round is still in the chamber my immershun is ruined).

Accurate gun modeling takes dedication. For games which actually make a point to achieve realism, the team usually is taken to the range and are brought up to speed about what's what,
because at the end of the day an armchair enthusiast remains exactly that with no hands-on experience.
What you need is a project lead who gives a toot about this. Aaaand, right... it's bethesda we're talking about.
The closest a lefty-loosey diversity hire came to a functional firearm was a nerf gun (it shows in a lot of SF designs, starfield included).
They probably draw straws and it's a actual punishment to have to model and animate the abhorrent boomsticks.

 

[HumanMaleFighter]

Gun knowledge isn't as esoteric as it used to be (and a surprising amount of people aren't freedom lovin' americans), but even with teams that mean well, big or small inaccuracies often happen.
So the rifle doesn't use 7.62x54 but 7.62x39, big freaking deal. And 5.56mm being less powerful than a 9mm? You can see which number is bigger, right?
I think people simply concede that a purist will always find something to bitch about (durrr, you don't have to pull back the slide when
reloading and a round is still in the chamber my immershun is ruined).

Accurate gun modeling takes dedication. For games which actually make a point to achieve realism, the team usually is taken to the range and are brought up to speed about what's what,
because at the end of the day an armchair enthusiast remains exactly that with no hands-on experience.
What you need is a project lead who gives a toot about this. Aaaand, right... it's bethesda we're talking about.
The closest a lefty-loosey diversity hire came to a functional firearm was a nerf gun (it shows in a lot of SF designs, starfield included).
They probably draw straws and it's a actual punishment to have to model and animate the abhorrent boomsticks.

How hard could it be to have one person who knows what he's doing review the weapons to see if they make sense?

Shit, you could do the rational thing and just build your weapon damage tables around this: https://www.n4lcd.com/calc/

KE for pure damage, KO for interrupt/knockback/"stopping power"/whatever.

I could never play Fallout 3 or 4 (or New Vegas) because the weapon mechanics pissed me off. Bethesda are hacks.

 

[Sigourn]

Bethesda logic. Realistic guns = boring.

 

[Hagashager]

Everyone's giving Bethesda too much credit in assuming their ignorance is in good faith.

Lomg before guns get brought up, Bethesda's understanding of the US is clearly Urban Neoliberal. Listen or read any audio log in Fallout 4 or 76 for proof of that.

The guns are a fantasy to these effete, wealthy urbanites. Making them too accurate is giving "The Other Side" what they want, it's *corrupting* them the more they see it. Most of the designers know nothing about guns, they intentionally want to know nothing about guns, and consider knowledge of guns wrong.

 

[Echo Mirage]

Guns? Bethesda cannot even design swords. Anything more than an iron dagger is an overdesigned mess.

 

[Frozen]

Because they can't design a proper game.

 

[Beans00]

Gun knowledge isn't as esoteric as it used to be (and a surprising amount of people aren't freedom lovin' americans),

America isn't the only country with guns. Plenty of European countries have relatively easy firearm access, usually it involves doing a course and joining a shooting club.

Switzerland and the Czech republic have easier gun laws then roughly 30% of US states, to contrast.

 

[Cryomancer]

Bruh why are you playing Fallout 3-4 and Starfield

I was not. Played a bit of FL4 and asked refund. FL3 I played many years ago and din't liked much. SF I only watched videos.

Gun knowledge isn't as esoteric as it used to be (and a surprising amount of people aren't freedom lovin' americans),

This isn't truth. People who believe that only US has strong gun culture and relative low gun regulations only look to Mexico & UK. There are a lot of very armed countries outside of US. In Europe, Serbia is extremely armed. Czechia is extremely armed. Lithuania :

Gun store owner talking about guns

In South America, Paraguay has very lax gun laws, video bellow and in Uruguay, 1/3 of the population own guns. You can expect every adult male in the rural areas to own at least a single "full power" rifle. Even Argentina has a relative strong hunting tradition.

PY gun store

And if you look to other companies, CDPR is Polish, Poland is not a very gun friendly country, yet their Cyberpunk 2077 guns aren't as atrocious as Bugthesda. Metro is made by a Ukrainians. Amazing guns that fits the setting. UnderRail is Serbian and also has amazing guns. Ubisoft is French and their look are also much better than Bugthesda in games like the division 2.

The guns are a fantasy to these effete, wealthy urbanites. Making them too accurate is giving "The Other Side" what they want, it's *corrupting* them the more they see it. Most of the designers know nothing about guns, they intentionally want to nothing about guns, and consider knowledge of guns wrong.

Yep. It makes sense. They see any form of gun knowledge as "heretic knowledge".

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Bethesda logic. Realistic guns = boring.

The big problem is that they don't really understand the whole "retro future" thing. The AR-15 has been around since 1958, and Fallout's universe is the perception of the future from the point of view of someone who would be making sci-fi in the 1950s. That gun there from Fallout 4 doesn't make a Hell of a lot of sense when you look at rifle evolution from 1900 through the AR-15. If you're going to make a slug thrower look like a blimp, there really needs to be a good reason for it to look like a blimp. Also, what the Hell is with that handle that gets in the way of the sight? The AR-15 had a handle, but that handle was also part of the sight itself. Also, that port on the side there above the grip, is that supposed to be where the magazine goes? What's with the piping and that big thing under the barrel? The AR-15 has a gas operation system without anything like that. Also, if that's what that's supposed to be, there's really no place for that gas to go AND the intake for the canister should be towards the firing chamber as opposed to the end of the barrel.

Should the design be "realistic". Maybe, maybe not. Should it make sense? Yes, but that doesn't at all. There's no reason why a 5.56mm/.223 rifle should look anything like that given those existed in the 1950s.

 

[Glop_dweller]

I think that they design terrible games on purpose, for the L.C.D. mentality. Their purpose is profit by selling simplistic ego-empowerment ———at the expense of ALL else; and it usually works for them. They are not stupid, their management is just amoral. It actually takes a lot of collective skill to pull off what they do; despite some of them seeming inept at their job, it's for the most part overcome by the group. It's sad to me that it works on the mass market, and generally keeps them in business.

 

[spectre]

The big problem is that they don't really understand the whole "retro future" thing. The AR-15 has been around since 1958, and Fallout's universe is the perception of the future from the point of view of someone who would be making sci-fi in the 1950s. That gun there from Fallout 4 doesn't make a Hell of a lot of sense when you look at rifle evolution from 1900 through the AR-15. If you're going to make a slug thrower look like a blimp, there really needs to be a good reason for it to look like a blimp. Also, what the Hell is with that handle that gets in the way of the sight? The AR-15 had a handle, but that handle was also part of the sight itself. Also, that port on the side there above the grip, is that supposed to be where the magazine goes? What's with the piping and that big thing under the barrel? The AR-15 has a gas operation system without anything like that. Also, if that's what that's supposed to be, there's really no place for that gas to go AND the intake for the canister should be towards the firing chamber as opposed to the end of the barrel.

We've had that discussion back in 2008. Bethesda has proven itself incapable of understanding that concept. Unfortunately, neither did the majority of the gamer audience.
Biggest tragedy of it all, 15 years after, is this approach is now considered "successful" and they get to take all the credit as though they invented the thing.
It was infuriating back then but now, I just feel nothing.

To be honest, that particular gun looks like something a teenager would put together in one of those pimp my gun flash apps that used to be popular.
You start off with a maxim, then just attach stuff randomly so that it looks like it was thrown together in a junkyard cause hurr durr post-apocalypse.
The designer was obviously not interested in knowing anything about how a firearm operates, rules of cool was sufficient.

At the end of the day, as far as I am concerned, bethesda's games only redeeming quality is when you treat them as (passable) looter shooters.
One would think they'd actually want to get the gunplay right.

America isn't the only country with guns.

Watch out, an obvious hyperbole just whooshed past your head.

@HumanMaleFighter how hard could it be to have one person who knows what he's doing review the weapons to see if they make sense?

From my experience, once the lead sets their mind about a design, there's fuck all you can do.
So it's basically a gamble, does the lead designer know anything about boomsticks? Does xe even care?
Sure, you can know better, but if you try reasoning, you'll quickly get asked: why are you being problematic?

 

[Mister Vespertine]

They expect the modders to make their games better/workable at this point.

The fucking guns in Starfield are so boring, I can't even remember their names. Even the "legendary" boomsticks are weak as fuck in terms of memorability. I've given some thought to playing a swashbuckler character just to see if it's more fun (yes, I'm trying to give the game another chance... I have no life. I apologize for nothing).

 

[Spark Mandriller]

SMG is only available in 10mm

Because the SMG in Fallout 1 is in 10mm. Bethesda don't know anything about firearms but blaming them for a choice that was made in the original game is stupid.

 

[Hace El Oso]

Accurate gun modeling takes dedication. For games which actually make a point to achieve realism, the team usually is taken to the range and are brought up to speed about what's what,
because at the end of the day an armchair enthusiast remains exactly that with no hands-on experience.
What you need is a project lead who gives a toot about this. Aaaand, right... it's bethesda we're talking about.
The closest a lefty-loosey diversity hire came to a functional firearm was a nerf gun (it shows in a lot of SF designs, starfield included).
They probably draw straws and it's a actual punishment to have to model and animate the abhorrent boomsticks.

I think this misses the real problem. The Japanese have, broadly speaking, zero access to firearms, but in their animation of the 1970s-2000s there was a general expectation of a detailed, correct depiction of firearms. This usually extends to the full cycling of the weapon, all of it.

And this is typically true of pretty much anything. Mechanics, like vehicles? All faithfully detailed, down to the rider’s position on a motorcycle.

You see the same thing with behaviour and movement of animals, anything. I heard one off-hand comment from an animator about sending out for footage of swimmers on the Olympic team practicing, so that she could see the correct technique in detail.

What has happened? In the end, I believe it’s primarily two things:
The absence of care, of effort, of attention put into anything. And the extreme alienation from the real, material world that has become so common.

 

[Baron Tahn]

Because Bethesda makes open world trash fires? Their gift is in -or was in- talented world building arts teams for their open worlds. They can't write/care for writing and they aren't very good at RPG systems. They showed glimpses of design skill once but I haven't seen it since Morrowind.

One of the reasons they took Fallout is similar to the reason they have Elder Scrolls - they are decent at producing other people's ideas (this is a Todd Howard thing since his first project on a Terminator game before he helmed the studio) so they leaned on the established vision and lore of Fallout and ES. Starfield demonstrated they have no imagination of their own.

Guns and weapons are not their focus and I doubt they bother to hire on many grognards in those departments.

 

[Funposter]

Bethesda logic. Realistic guns = boring.

This is actually what it comes down to. Their artists are hacks and they haven't had anyone with any sort of cohesive, aesthetic vision since Adamowicz died, and even then his best work was with environments (weirdly, something that Bethesda do pretty well). Never liked his character or prop work that much.

 

[Funposter]

The Japanese have, broadly speaking, zero access to firearms, but in their animation of the 1970s-2000s there was a general expectation of a detailed, correct depiction of firearms. This usually extends to the full cycling of the weapon, all of it. And this is typically true of pretty much anything. Mechanics, like vehicles? All faithfully detailed, down to the rider’s position on a motorcycle.

lots of animators are otaku, yeah

 

[Hace El Oso]

lots of animators are otaku, yeah

I’m talking about a minimum of twenty years ago, when that was not the case. They were people living in the world, dedicated to their craft, not autismos. Miyazaki, the figurehead of the class in Japan, famously identified ‘otaku’ as degenerates.

 

[Funposter]

lots of animators are otaku, yeah

I’m m talking about a minimum of twenty years ago, when that was not the case. They were people living in the world, dedicated to their craft. Miyazaki, the figurehead of those people, famously identified ‘otaku’ as degenerates.

i am referring more to its usage as genre-specific, not broad. i.e one may be a "firearms otaku" (this is a big subculture). lots of these dudes like animation and are very specifically skilled at drawing it.

edit: also miyazaki is a COMMIE FAGGOT

 

[tommy heavenly6]

Liberals hate guns, I wouldn't rule out a certain pettiness when they design weapons - I think they might even be aware that their designs piss off the /k/ types and double down on the practice to own the chuds. Nowadays in the industry everything seems made out of spite.