What's the best way to do equipment progression in RPGs?

[Wunderbar]

I'm sure this was brought up several times on codex, but i wasn't able to find any good threads.

One of pillars of RPG genre is progression - you start the game as some weak prisoner, and go all the way to becoming a demigod Chosen One. Usually progression is tied to both character's stats and equipment, and there are different types of equipment progression in RPGs:

1) Levelled equipment. There is a small amount of types of equipment, but it's artifically inflated by adding level number, roughly tied to character's level. At the start of the game you are using Mace lv1, then you replace it in favor of Mace lv5, etc. Sometimes you have random suffixes / prefixes, like Quality Mace of Fire lv7. Numbers aside, the item is usually the same - it uses the same moveset (in action-rpgs), relies on the same stat/skill, and sometimes even look the same. Progression is tied to character's level.

In my not so unpopular opinion it is the most degenerate system, only fit in diablo-likes and such. Devs are using it as a crutch, because they can't be assed to place loot on a huge 16x16km map filled with question marks and side activities by hand. Witcher 3 is a prime example.

2) Replaceable equipment. Probably the most popular system. Basically, there are a lot of differnet stuff in the game (usually hand-placed), and you replace it as you find a better one. At the start of the game you are using Shitty wooden club, then you throw it away in favor of Steel bludgeon, then replace it with Daedric mace, etc. Sometimes these weapons act similar and are purely incremental upgrade (Gothic, Morrowind), sometimes these weapons are fairly different but some of them are still vastly better than others (like 10mm pistol vs Hunting rifle vs Minigun in Fallout 1 - 2 - NV). Sometimes items have unique properties and can be upgraded for extended period of usage, but overall are still cannot be considered viable (like rusted weapons in Dragon's Dogma, which can inflict slowdown on enemies).

Progression is usually tied to either a story (merchants are updating their stock after some certain events), or player's metaknowledge (when the loot is 100% hand-placed).

3) Upgradeable equipment. Everything is viable - from a simple starting sword to a king's blessed claymore, as long as you keep it upgraded. The difference is usually in movesets (action-rpgs) or some other unique properties (different types of elemental damage, different stat scaling, class restrictions, etc).

Examples: Dark Souls (progression is tied to upgrade materials, and Embers - special item that unlocks new upgrade paths at the blacksmith), Fallout 4 (shitty pipe zipgun, 308cal bolt-action rifle and minigun all have roughly similar DPS, progression is tied to weapon upgrade perks which are in turn tied to character's level).

4) Unique items. The rarest example - every weapon is unique and falls into its own niche, every armor is unique and gives you a certain benefit. As you collect more and more items, instead of progressing into a more powerful being you just gain more opportunities.

Honestly, i can't think of a good example of such system in RPGs, because having unique items is mostly action-adventure Zelda-like thing. Maybe Deus Ex and System Shock?

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Any systems I failed to mention, and good examples, any opinions on which of them are the best one?

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Btw, despite beating Underrail, i'm still not sure in which cathegory it falls. On one hand it might be levelled equipment system (yikes) because of "quality" stat of crafting materials. On the other hand, it might be replaceable equipment system without (or at least with partially) hand-placed loot, because you generally find better gear as you progress further into story.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[laclongquan]

Baldur's Gate 2 system.

The lack of equipment in some phase of a game, for example. Take chapter 2, before gib money to shadow thieves or vampire. You have a lack of boots. Also lack of rings, excluding the basic ring of protection +1 (because we want to use magic armor, so we cant use them).

The abundant of equipment for another. You can find, for example, 2hand swords like Lilacor, Carsomyr, thus can retire sword of chaos +2 and various others. You also can buy good weapons in shops.

The difference between so abundant equipment. FOr example, back to 2hand swords. Lilacor is nice for a talking sword so we usually carry it alongside with Hallowed Redeemer/Carsomyr and only change for latter in battle. So sometimes we use less powergamey reason to use less than effective weapon.

 

[c2007]

1) Levelled equipment - disgusting.
2) Replaceable equipment - needs variety added in later stages or it can become dull; also can be nausea inducing if there are too many similar options.
3) Upgradeable equipment - probably my preference if I had to choose just one of these systems
4) Unique equipment - takes the most effort, or the least depending on your approach. In my perfect game, there have to be unique equipments.

Many games employ a mixture of these systems. I think my preference overall is a hybrid system 3 as the main template with elements of 2 & 4.

 

[laclongquan]

Neverwinter Nights 2 Original Campaign (and not Mask of the Betrayer or Storm of Zehir)

Beside the abundant items that was premade for you, you also can make custom items.

Making blank weapon/armor. Imbue it with spells and thus making it magical. You also can rename it into something unique for you. Thus you can have massive arsenal of weapons and armors.

It provide a way for gamers to "fix" designers' lack of foresight. For example, in BG2 I mentioned above there's a dire lack of magical club, thus screw over anyone choosing club proficiency. But in NWN2OC you can just make one.

 

[anvi]

EQ is the best I've ever seen for this, especially once they patched in some more gear later on. You start with no gear, and are very weak. As you fight you start finding pieces of cloth armor which are semi worthless, but it is part of the progression, and you are supposed to struggle through the early days. A while later you start hearing about items that you would want, but you have to go out of your way to hunt down specific items for each slot, and there are about 20 slots. You have to hunt them down which requires travelling far and wide an questing or killing a boss for it, but it is very worth it.

Also the items are hand made, not procedural crap, and there is a lot of variety with the items. For example a sword which randomly casts a stun spell, a mace which gives a huge strength boost and absorbs some damage, or a whip that ensnares the target, etc.. etc... Same goes for every slot. A belt with haste on it, or a belt with +10 strength, etc. And not everyone has the same gear, so one Warrior might get a big 2 handed sword which casts a haste spell on himself. But another warrior might prefer two 1 handed weapons, or a 1h and shield, and either way that means you would then need to get haste from some other item.

To me there are only a few rules of making good itemization in a game.

1) I don't want to be forever upgrading. If I get some good items, I want to be able to enjoy it and feel stronger for a good amount of time before I have to go hunting for another upgrade.

2) The items need to be hand crafted and memorable. I hate (mostly MMOs) games where you get a new item every 2 minutes. There are items I got in EQ over 10 years ago that I can still remember getting, what they were called, and how I got it. Yet I can't remember a single item from any RPG I played even this year.

3) The progression needs to be very well balanced and a smooth line. You need to start weak, and gradually get stronger as you progress. But also you need to really feel a big improvement from 'special' items, yet they can't break the game either. This is far easier said than done. Again in EQ, there were items that were so good, they seemed overpowered, and they did make that character much stronger than they would be otherwise. Yet nothing really ruined the balance of the game.

4) Everything needs to have strengths and weaknesses. So if you get a 2 handed weapon, it should do huge hits and maybe stun or interrupt enemies that are casting spells. But two 1 handed weapons should do more damage. And a weapon with a shield should make you mitigate damage much better than the other guys, yet do less damage. And preferably every item should have the same sort of pros and cons, so you have a choice which item to get for each slot. Even with mage gear, it is the same. One person might get a robe that has a lot of CHA on it which is better for beguiling enemies, another robe has more INT so more mana. One robe had haste on it which is strange for a spell caster as they tend to not fight in melee, but you could make use of it if you were smart. There was also a mage staff which would randomly cast a Slow spell on the enemy each time you attack, so if you used the haste robe with that staff, you had a good chance of getting that Slow spell to cast and beating up the enemy.

 

[Spectacle]

I really dislike leveled equipment doing orders of magnitude more damage than basic gear. IMHO a 1st level sword should still be deadly in the hands of a 20th level fighter. Having top rate gear should be a bonus, not a necessity to fulfill your party role.

 

[Steamboat Willie]

Purchasable upgrades via real-money microtransactions, of course.

 

[V_K]

Breakable equipment: all the items of a given type (e.g. all long swords) are essentially the same (except for a few unique hand-placed magical variants), but they eventually break and require replacements, so looting non-magical equipment doesn't become totally meaningless. Bonus points if the artifacts are breakable too, forcing you into considering whether it's worth it to use in a particular encounter or switch to a regular weapon. The main advantage here is that you don't have to design too many items, so it's easier to keep them all meaningfully different from each other.
I think Realms of Arkania and Darklands have this kind of system, and it's a staple of RT blobbers.

 

[Covenant]

I think a system which isn't used often enough is to have gear (or a subset of gear) gated behind some kind of unbreakable economy, whether it's actual gold or something like needing to find special ore. Give the player a large degree of choices, all significantly strong in different areas, but forcing a degree of specialisation on them. So they could spring for the two-handed flame sword as their first big purchase and it'd be a big help against any undead they encounter, but it would be a substandard choice in the lava caverns. Or they can buy the helm of true seeing, but that means they'll have to complete another dungeon or two before getting a strong weapon.

Gold normally doesn't work great for this, as it's typically not controlled tightly enough to stop players gaining ludicrous amounts of it for low effort. Or at best it encourages degenerate grinding.

The other problem with this approach is that once players have played the game once (or looked up spoilers), a certain order of progression inevitably becomes optimal and the rest is ignored. So it works better for games that are more open-world (Battle Brothers) or have more procedural generation (roguelikes), where players can't be certain of when or what threats they'll face, but can only make educated guesses at best.

 

[luj1]

1) Levelled equipment. There is a small amount of types of equipment, but it's artifically inflated by adding level number, roughly tied to character's level. At the start of the game you are using Mace lv1, then you replace it in favor of Mace lv5, etc. Sometimes you have random suffixes / prefixes, like Quality Mace of Fire lv7. Numbers aside, the item is usually the same - it uses the same moveset (in action-rpgs), relies on the same stat/skill, and sometimes even look the same. Progression is tied to character's level.

In my not so unpopular opinion it is the most degenerate system, only fit in diablo-likes and such. Devs are using it as a crutch, because they can't be assed to place loot on a huge 16x16km map filled with question marks and side activities by hand. Witcher 3 is a prime example.

2) Replaceable equipment. Probably the most popular system. Basically, there are a lot of differnet stuff in the game (usually hand-placed), and you replace it as you find a better one. At the start of the game you are using Shitty wooden club, then you throw it away in favor of Steel bludgeon, then replace it with Daedric mace, etc. Sometimes these weapons act similar and are purely incremental upgrade (Gothic, Morrowind), sometimes these weapons are fairly different but some of them are still vastly better than others (like 10mm pistol vs Hunting rifle vs Minigun in Fallout 1 - 2 - NV). Sometimes items have unique properties and can be upgraded for extended period of usage, but overall are still cannot be considered viable (like rusted weapons in Dragon's Dogma, which can inflict slowdown on enemies).

Progression is usually tied to either a story (merchants are updating their stock after some certain events), or player's metaknowledge (when the loot is 100% hand-placed).

3) Upgradeable equipment. Everything is viable - from a simple starting sword to a king's blessed claymore, as long as you keep it upgraded. The difference is usually in movesets (action-rpgs) or some other unique properties (different types of elemental damage, different stat scaling, class restrictions, etc).

Examples: Dark Souls (progression is tied to upgrade materials, and Embers - special item that unlocks new upgrade paths at the blacksmith), Fallout 4 (shitty pipe zipgun, 308cal bolt-action rifle and minigun all have roughly similar DPS, progression is tied to weapon upgrade perks which are in turn tied to character's level).

4) Unique items. The rarest example - every weapon is unique and falls into its own niche, every armor is unique and gives you a certain benefit. As you collect more and more items, instead of progressing into a more powerful being you just gain more opportunities.

Honestly, i can't think of a good example of such system in RPGs, because having unique items is mostly action-adventure Zelda-like thing. Maybe Deus Ex and System Shock?

----------

Any systems I failed to mention, and good examples, any opinions on which of them are the best one?

----------

Btw, despite beating Underrail, i'm still not sure in which cathegory it falls. On one hand it might be levelled equipment system (yikes) because of "quality" stat of crafting materials. On the other hand, it might be replaceable equipment system without (or at least with partially) hand-placed loot, because you generally find better gear as you progress further into story.

1 and 3 are cancer

4 doesn't exist

90% of games use 2 and there's nothing inherently wrong with it. It's how you implement it

 

[frajaq]

Anything but leveled equipment, anything but that

please

it sucks so fucking much, it has a proper place in other games but definetly not cRPGs

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I prefer unique items. The only problem with games the employ them are the game mechanics themselves. For example, if BG2 had kept BG1 style proficiencies, selection would be a non-issue. Furthermore, if BG used 5E rules where things are either magical nor not (no +x), then there would be absolutely no issues at all.

 

[laclongquan]

BG series did use replaceable equipment. Ring of protection +1 = Ring of the Princes. Scimitar +2 = Rashad's Talon... It's just, they use it sparingly.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

3 is the best since it allows for attachment to specific items (the opposite of 1) and doesn't incentive metagaming as much as 2. Two Worlds is a meme game but item combination is a great idea.

 

[unfairlight]

1 - Garbage, especially so if it has an RNG factor to it. It's lazy and means that all equipment is replaceable within a level or two.

2 - Best all arounder and easiest to balance in a satisfying way, meta knowledge is the primary downside to it. However, I think making lesser weapons still practical should not be forgotten. This is something that was done right in Fallout 3, FNV and Fallout 4 with their guns. Your basic 10mm pistol, varmint rifle, or pipe gun is still practical for killing low level trash and their ammo and repairs are cheap which makes it ideal for that purpose.

In turn based games this can be balanced too; as an example in Fallout 2 some weapons used only 4 AP for one shot, the balance around that could have been a lot more interesting if ALL one handed weapons had 4AP to fire, while long arms had 5AP instead. Pistols already have range limitations compared to rifles, why make it any more pointless to use pistols when rifles are near-universally better?
Can also be applied to shotguns as well, as an example double barrelled shotguns could fire 4AP for one barrel or 5AP for both barrels, while magazine loaders could fire 5AP for single shots. This could result in more interesting tactics in a game that had an otherwise boring combat system, such shooting both barrels from around a corner, going back into the corner, reloading next turn and repeating that. You already are limited with only 2 shells in the double barrelled shotgun, why make it any more pointless?
Can also be applied to SMGs vs automatic rifles, SMGs use less AP or deal more damage up close, rifles have better accuracy and a longer range in exchange for more AP per shot/burst.
This totally linear upgrade path, where you throw all lower level weapons to the trash once you get something better is best avoided. Although, this idea of mine only really works in games with guns, not fantasy games (other than mage characters.)

3 - Only works for a certain type of game, but I think equipment should still have limitations and infinite upgrades is a bad way to go about things.

4 - Hard to balance, and again only works for a certain type of game.

 

[Raghar]

This probably shouldn't be in General RPG discussion, because it's a game development problem.

There are multiple correct ways, but the most important is to look at story of computer game. When a hero randomly stumbles on a prison planet, and his means to leave explodes, and they act to him as civilian. Of course we can't allow him to have military weapons, which they have only police guns at most, definitely not allowed to random at best civilian. Perhaps mixed with a small intermezzo when policemen would cuff his hands behind his back, or to a chair, and then he has to fight of a dangerous monster against which he needed that weapons with hands handcuffed behind his back.

Perhaps that might even explain a malus to his character stats. When they die, he would need to spend effort to get these weapons by lockpicking doors and hacking.

Another way is to send a person with king decree to foreign country, or province, but king decree just means they should accept him into theirs own structurers/as king representative. It doesn't mean they should give him best armor on theirs costs, or to allow him to buy high grade military weapons without obtaining some trust from theirs side.
That way was used in Daggerfal. At start shops allow you to buy only iron weapons, ebony weapons are allowed much later.
Gothic games require higher standing before they allow to buy better armor.

Alien games have automatic weapon locker lockdown because of problems on board, and require to crawl around aliens to repair minor gas leak which prevented AI to unlock weapon locker, because it didn't want weapon fire to blow gas and blow ship to pieces. Then when everything is repaired locker unlocks and main hero finds a weapon completely capable to blow up small aliens with 30 ammo, which surely is sufficient for solving minor problems that require extraordinary measure like automatic rifle. While 48 small aliens can be killed 3 by one shot when you line them sufficiently, 2 large aliens would require at least 20 ammo each. It typically ends by ventilating big aliens into space, while main hero is desperately using these 30 ammo to even stay alive until then.
The end is when a rogue robot is hiding alien eggs when it's not smart, he doesn't freeze to prevent hatching. When he's smart it prevents hatching and the whole ship moves away into happier future where they didn't exterminate endangered species of animals.

 

[laclongquan]

What the fuck, Raghar? We are talking about equipment progression and what were you talking about?

You veered waaaaay off the topic.

 

[Yosharian]

I, the player, must have a sense that I did it 'my way'. That's the crux of it, in my opinion. For RPGs, anyway.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

King's Field had the best system ever -- most of the equipment can be found in the dungeons, but also purchased in stores if you're ready to grind.

There are quite a few unique items hidden around the world that you can find by taking risks or meeting certain requirements to gain access to them.

 

[Gregz]

Absolute best itemization is random stats and effects on tiered-rarity random items, scaling from broken items to artifacts, using well designed procedural generation for the number of stats and effects allowable according to rarity and item type. Sets, sockets, crafting, blessings, enchantments, and other such mechanics improve things even more.

Proper itemization gives the player huge build variety and theorycrafting possibilities, which, ideally, continues to expand as the player gains more levels.

Best examples: Diablo II - Median XL, Zangband, Borderlands, Divine Divinity, Path of Exile.

 

[deuxhero]

I think what Morrowind actually did is the best solution. There's low quality equipment (Netch Leather/Bearskin/Fur/Iron) that largely exists for enemy use and normal equipment (Chitin/Steel) everywhere, and it's easy enough to get your hands on normal quality equipment (The tradehouse has some, and your starting money is almost enough to afford a good chunk of it). Strictly speaking, all a character needs is the "normal" armor of a category and an enchanted/silver weapon of their preferred type. You can loot all enemy equipment, but most of it is junk too heavy to sell. Finding something actually better than the baseline is a rare occurrence and almost all examples of such are handplaced. When you do get something better, it's substantially better (Most heavy armor gives around 15-20 armor, Ebony gives 60. That sword you got from the tradehouse does 4-18 or 1-20, which is the case for most longblades, but a glass one will do 4-30) and was handplaced or taken from a high level daedra.

Most of the loot worth hauling back to town to sell is small consumables/gems. This loot isn't spent on an equipment treadmill, but on training that enables using your normal quality stuff better. You also find magic items, which are largely utility effects.

Of course Morrowind's economy and skill system being completely and utterly fucked sinks this. At the very least you'd need something like GCD (removes the retarded attribute system and replace it with encouragement to level secondary skills), rebalanced training prices (make cheaper for longer but even more expensive at the end), no skill leveling exploits (or only let training increase a skill), and no money exploits to unfuck it. That doesn't change that it's a solid idea though.

In particular this is how firearms should work. The poverty pony with a cheap Chinese made red dot or basic service rifle will be all you need most of the time, and it's easy enough to get your hands on, but getting your hands on a race gun with super expensive optic will be a noticeable boost if you have the skill to use it.

 

[Lord_Potato]

Play a monk, don't trouble yourself with itemization or equipment progression!

 

[unfairlight]

Monk is the most boring playstyle. Zero cool armour or weapons, just whacking people with a boring stick in your boring robe with your boring character without any real role. In a party, a monk is dead weight.

 

[Yosharian]

Monk is the most boring playstyle. Zero cool armour or weapons, just whacking people with a boring stick in your boring robe with your boring character without any real role. In a party, a monk is dead weight.

Zero cool armor or weapons, boring playstyle perhaps, but no real role? Dead weight? Monks can be deadly...