What should a game expose to attract gamers?

[J1M]

Take a look at the store page, I will watch this video and maybe try to make changes to the store page. So you can look at the store page now to compare it to the updated version.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1292410/Golden_Fall_2/

Your screenshots are blurry. Is the whole game blurry?

One of your trailers starts with 10 seconds of nothing and then shows the logo. Just delete that trailer. If you want to make people see the logo put it as the still image before the trailer plays.

Your description:
"Golden Fall 2 is a static balanced Rogue Like Dungeon Crawler. Golden Fall 2 plays as a rogue like, but the levels are not random generated. This is not a drawback, as the hand tailored level provide a very interesting challenge."

Wordsmithed:
"Gold Fall 2 is a roguelike dungeon crawler with hand-made levels designed to create an interesting challenge."

 

[PompiPompi]

Well, different people are different.
Steam has all sort of gamers.
Not everyone like the same things.
I can't obviously appeal to everyone the same way.

However, my game has a Demo.
Now, depending if you are even willing to try out the Demo, might affect a lot if you are going to wish list it.
You can't buy it yet, there is only a Demo.

I think, that people like me at least, and maybe like you too, are way more harder to please.
I am not sure I am even able to enjoy most games nowadays, I just don't have the time to invest in games.
So recently I mostly buy a game, play it for maybe an hour, then never play it again.

Some people don't have very demanding hobbies or jobs, like we do.

From what I am seeing, people DO wish list my game. My assumption is that they download the Demo, enjoy playing the Demo, and then wishlist it.

I think I have lost the mindset of a gamer, because if the game is not the absolute perfection, I am likely to stop play it. Because I rather spend my time deving my game, than playing a game that is not better than anything I have played before.

So, your theories might be incorrect, because the big difference is the Demo that might might have a high conversion rate, assuming people even try it.

 

[DraQ]

Fun little exercise:

Think of a game you really like and consider really good (preferably RPG in this case).
Imagine a person who has never heard of this game.
Now, in about one, not too long sentence try to sell this particular game to this person.
As a supplementary material you can have one blurry screenshot of your choice to wave around
(ok, if your game has multiple very different gameplay phases, you can have one per each, provided they look and control completely different).
You can replace screenshot with single, several seconds long animated gif if you so desire.

Now try the same with your game.
If you don't have a single unique thing about your game to make it worth buying, then maybe it isn't.

However, my game has a Demo.

Now, that's good in my book, however:

Now, depending if you are even willing to try out the Demo, might affect a lot if you are going to wish list it.

What if I'm not?

It's your job to
a) convince me to try your demo
b) make this demo interesting enough for me to want the whole thing

Demo potentially lowers the barrier of entry for someone already marginally interested in your game, but risk averse.
However it doesn't do anything in order to make someone interested.

 

[PompiPompi]

I had someone in RPG Codex translate my Demo to German.
He also wrote a more compelling game description.
He also made the English version.
I thought I already replaced the store's description with his version, but I have might missed it.
Tell me if this description look a lot more compelling:



"Golden Fall 2 is a single character dungeon crawl RPG focused on exploration of a vast and engaging world.

Combat follows a simultanous turn-based system inspired by roguelikes, but the game's environments are lovingly hand-crafted to provide interesting challenges and rewarding exploration to the player.

A deep character system allows players to become mighty warriors, powerful wizards or balanced hybrids, with dozens of weapons, armors, skills and magic spells to choose from.

In Golden Fall 2, you play as a young man thrown into ancient sewers. Initially finding yourself without a weapon, you must delve deeper and explore the depths for treasure and experience before you can return to the surface."

 

[DraQ]

Now, you might think you have said this:

I had someone in RPG Codex translate my Demo to German.
He also wrote a more compelling game description.
He also made the English version.
I thought I already replaced the store's description with his version, but I have might missed it.
Tell me if this description look a lot more compelling:



"Golden Fall 2 is a single character dungeon crawl RPG focused on exploration of a vast and engaging world.

Combat follows a simultanous turn-based system inspired by roguelikes, but the game's environments are lovingly hand-crafted to provide interesting challenges and rewarding exploration to the player.

A deep character system allows players to become mighty warriors, powerful wizards or balanced hybrids, with dozens of weapons, armors, skills and magic spells to choose from.

In Golden Fall 2, you play as a young man thrown into ancient sewers. Initially finding yourself without a weapon, you must delve deeper and explore the depths for treasure and experience before you can return to the surface."

But to my highly sophisticated veteran gamer ear it sounds like this:

*generic gamedev noises*

(granted, plus some bare technical information)

Protip:
This is how you should make your description/elevator pitch:

• Throw away anything that is already adequately conveyed by category, tags or screenshots
• Throw away generic wishful shit like "vast and engaging world", yeah, that's not for you to say and everyone says that despite it not being true more often than not.
• Throw away any part you can think of that also describes any other game, unless your unique selling point is specifically combining preexisting elements in a unique, novel way - then describe this way.
• Throw away story/setting shit unless you're adamant it's both rock solid AND you can convince anyone that it is.

What's left is not your entire description, but it is the important part.
Nothing left? Then your game has no business existing.

 

[GarrisonFjord]

Imo: "What the public wants" is a recipe for disaster.
+ You can never predict what will sell & what won't.
What you want to do and/or can do, should be important.
(But it's not my neck at risk, so why would you care.)

I rather spend my time deving my game, than playing a game

Seems obvious to me. Playing games is trivial. Developing anything is immeasurably better for the brain.
Afaik Game developers don't really play games. Lack of time. Lack of interest.
(I say) Gaming itself is lowbrow. Maybe good as a gateway to other things.
The creative process behind it, is the only thing of worth about gaming.

Also: Good Luck.

 

[DraQ]

Imo: "What the public wants" is a recipe for disaster.
+ You can never predict what will sell & what won't.
What you want to do and/or can do, should be important.
(But it's not my neck at risk, so why would you care.)

I rather spend my time deving my game, than playing a game

Seems obvious to me. Playing games is trivial. Developing anything is immeasurably better for the brain.
Afaik Game developers don't really play games. Lack of time. Lack of interest.
(I say) Gaming itself is lowbrow. Maybe good as a gateway to other things.
The creative process behind it, is the only thing of worth about gaming.

That would explain why so many games are so full of so obviously awful design ideas it's not even funny and why, on the other hand, good design ideas are so rarely picked up to be copied and expanded upon even if they should be no-brainers.

Bottom line is that there is nothing edifying about wallowing in shit if you could instead be standing on the shoulders of, well, maybe not always giants but every little bit helps.

 

[PompiPompi]

Well, playing games is also good for your brain.
It can cheer you up, it can make you engaged in something.
Playing games can be really fun.
But they can also be time consuming.

That's why I kind of abandon games that seem to have a steep learning curve, or require a lot of time invested in them.

I used to enjoy it in the past. The reason I avoid it now, is because I feel like... I don't have that much time to spare.
Maybe when I have more free time and less work, I won't feel so much regret spending time on games that are long.

I like playing CS:GO for instance. Because you can start a game quick, and play a lot or a little. The time you invest in this game, it doesn't need to be very long.
While there is a lot of skill and intelligence in CS, it's pretty easy to get most of the gameplay pretty quick.

But then, I might get bored playing dust II for so many times lol.

Another point, I also don't trust other developers for not wasting my time with fillers and games that are only meant to make a sale but not really have enough hand made content.
I am more familiar with the tricks developers do to inflate their game or make a sale.

This is important. There is a different between a good game, and game that is good in making a sale.

Visuals are definitely important to make a sale.
The trailer, the screenshots, the consumer doesn't even need to understand what the game is about, it just need to make him hyped about the game to make a sale.
I think a good indication if a game sells well but is not a good game, is if the Demo deters people from buying the game.
That's why many games who want to make sales, don't put a Demo, because the game becomes repetitive after a single hour, so the Demo will probably make people realize the game is not that fun as it looks.

Another thing is... sometimes developer have blogs and stream, and they have so many rabid fans, that it doesn't matter if they put shit for sale, their rabid fans will inflate their store's presence. And they will make lots of money selling shit.

In short, yea... I should probably listen to advice, but eventually think for myself.

 

[GarrisonFjord]

DraQ
I think I agree, to some extent. To clarify a bit more:

I don't think being an active player is a prerequisite for making games.
Trying many games to see how they work, yes. But games are very repetitive.
There is little insight to be gained from pouring too much time on any single game.
(^ That's where my "playing games is lowbrow" comment comes from.)

I remember a funny moment from some GDC talk:
(Question to panel) What makes a successful card game?
(Answer from panel) Richard Garfield.

And a not so funny moment:
Where one game designer described how he would wring his brain for game ideas all day.
E.g. Taping himself while driving. All just to stay financially afloat (no big hits).

 

[PompiPompi]

Your screenshots are blurry. Is the whole game blurry?

One of your trailers starts with 10 seconds of nothing and then shows the logo. Just delete that trailer. If you want to make people see the logo put it as the still image before the trailer plays.

Your description:
"Golden Fall 2 is a static balanced Rogue Like Dungeon Crawler. Golden Fall 2 plays as a rogue like, but the levels are not random generated. This is not a drawback, as the hand tailored level provide a very interesting challenge."

Wordsmithed:
"Gold Fall 2 is a roguelike dungeon crawler with hand-made levels designed to create an interesting challenge."

You are right, the game looks blurry.
I have now made it pixel sharp. Do you think it looks better?
(GUI still not sharp and shadow needs more work)

Spoiler

 

[RobotSquirrel]

I don't think being an active player is a prerequisite for making games.
Trying many games to see how they work, yes. But games are very repetitive.
There is little insight to be gained from pouring too much time on any single game.
(^ That's where my "playing games is lowbrow" comment comes from.)

From my personal experience. I've played so many games over the past 3.5 decades that I feel like I've seen it all at this point.
I only ever play games now when I end up in an enforced downtime because something has happened that prevents me from working. At the moment that's my obligations to unemployment so as such I do end up with a lot of downtime. On the bad side it means development is slower but on the positive the first year thus far of development has been free so its worth it even if my brain right now is about to explode. The strategy I use is that if I have a forced downtime due to obligation I will opt for playing games within the same style or genre of game I'm making and avoid at all costs anything new as newer games will distract you and push you into featurecreep. The idea is to look at the games you're using as a foundation and play them as a form of affirmation of what you're making.

As such I have a limited number of games I try to play plus generally I'm intolerant of a lot of games because some are just so poorly put together. Its best not to waste your time with them.
One game I can keep going back to over and over is Deus Ex. Mods allow me to replay it over and over.

 

[GarrisonFjord]

RobotSquirrel
Can not disagree.
I do espouse the "whatever works for me/you" ideology.

For me, work usually is to the exclusion of everything else.
As in: won't even care about anything else, much less games.
Eventually I'll switch gears, try something else, and so on.

For games specifically: have stopped being an active player.
Usually may check game mechanics, via the best LPers I find.
Or falling back to retro game LPers, as a mental stabilizer.
(^=> Completely understand it, if you fall back on Deus Ex.)

 

[RobotSquirrel]

“Sometimes I work with people that get obsessed with having a twist,” Avellone says. “They're just like, ‘I gotta have it, where's the twist? Where do we surprise the player?’ I'm sick of twists. If you have to force a twist, just don't do it.”

Excomunicator doesn't believe he said it. This is the actual quote. Its from his IGN interview. I will not be linking it for sake of not giving IGN traffic Lol. That's my revenge for them buying Humble.

 

[Excommunicator]

“Sometimes I work with people that get obsessed with having a twist,” Avellone says. “They're just like, ‘I gotta have it, where's the twist? Where do we surprise the player?’ I'm sick of twists. If you have to force a twist, just don't do it.”

Excomunicator doesn't believe he said it. This is the actual quote. Its from his IGN interview. I will not be linking it for sake of not giving IGN traffic Lol. That's my revenge for them buying Humble.

I was simply asking for the specific quote.

I interpret Chris's quote not as "I hate twists" as such but more "twists are overrated" which I think is true. A good twist can be really fun though.

 

[DraQ]

“Sometimes I work with people that get obsessed with having a twist,” Avellone says. “They're just like, ‘I gotta have it, where's the twist? Where do we surprise the player?’ I'm sick of twists. If you have to force a twist, just don't do it.”

Excomunicator doesn't believe he said it. This is the actual quote. Its from his IGN interview. I will not be linking it for sake of not giving IGN traffic Lol. That's my revenge for them buying Humble.

I was simply asking for the specific quote.

I interpret Chris's quote not as "I hate twists" as such but more "twists are overrated" which I think is true. A good twist can be really fun though.

Is unexpected lack of a twist a twist in itself?

 

[Mortmal]

PompiPompi
Anyway, unless you are a big studio developing a sequel to a well established series that gets the players so pumped they might not even notice the game now sucks until about three installments in,
you need to think in an elevator pitch terms.

Potential player may spend about a minute on your store page if you're lucky. If you are extremely lucky, they might click the trailer. If you are humongously, unreasonably lucky, they won't quit watching about 10s in. Then depending on what you've said on the store page AND shown in the trailer/screenshots player may actually entertain buying your game, but only if you have managed to successfully convince them that they want it *specifically*.

Your task is to maximize that luck by telling prospective player as fast as possible why the fuck are they wasting their time on your store page.

For me it was maybe 15s and went like this:

• I swiped the screenshot scrollbar
• glanced at the description
  
• closed the tab thinking "wtf another pointless generic indie turd".

5 sec for me , there's better alternatives like stone soup, crawl , elona etc , for free . Hope its a trolling attempt and you are not genuinely believing in it.

 

[PompiPompi]

Well, the video about Steam marketing that was linked here was GOLDEN.
I watched it all, and going to implement.
It explains very well what's going on, in the consumer mind and how they browse Steam and see your game.

 

[Citizen]

If you spend more time brainstorming the marketing campaign for your game than making the actual game, your game is probably shit. That's the mindset of the suits who killed AAA videogame industry. Just make a good product, then if it's actually worthwhile enjoy the newfound cult classic status. See Pierre Begue, the man probably doesn't even know the meaning of the word "advertisement", yet every codexer would gladly throw money at him if he just asks

 

[Citizen]

I mean imma be fair with you pompi, it's great that you're working on your hobby project and I hope you'll make good games in a future, but this game in its current state is the most generic rogue-lite ever. There are literally dozens of games like this across steam and google play store, all of them with nothing unique to offer that would make people choose them over some other, more interesting rogue-lite. It has the most basic gameplay and looks like your typical RPG-maker game #89271. Honestly, this is a great student project to try your gamedev skillz on, but don't ever bother marketing it. First make a game people would really be interested in

 

[J_C]

If you spend more time brainstorming the marketing campaign for your game than making the actual game, your game is probably shit. That's the mindset of the suits who killed AAA videogame industry. Just make a good product, then if it's actually worthwhile enjoy the newfound cult classic status. See Pierre Begue, the man probably doesn't even know the meaning of the word "advertisement", yet every codexer would gladly throw money at him if he just asks

You can follow this ^ advice and hope that you have that one in a million game which will be successful based on word of mouth alone.

If he aims to get some money from that game, he has to think hard about the marketing. Sad, but that is the state of Steam.

My 2 cents:
- the music int he trailer doesn't fit the artstlye and the feel of the game at all. It's some generic cinematic music, while the artstyle is just the opposite. Also there are some transitions in the video, which I assume you found somewhere and used here, because it is also looks too cinematic and professional compared to the rest of the video.
- the introduction text which you can read at the top right corner of the page still has that bad text which is grammatically incorrect and sounds bad in general.
- the general artstyle is decent, we have seen worse looking games becoming successful. The UI however looks like placeholder, and you should try to improve it.
- don't worry about spoiling too much in the trailer. Just show the core mechanics: combat, using the skills, showing enemies, big battles, showing inventory management. Maybe some story beats, but this shouldn't be a priority.

That said...
As someone who also just a hobby gamedev and learning to make and market a game, just don't be too focused on success. Make the game you want to make, make it as good as you are able. But don't stress about it, since it will probably be a failure. But if you are sticking to game development, maybe you will have that game which will be successfull. Just be consistent.

 

[Terra]

Visibility is a real problem nowadays, a recent example being the recent success Among Us, albeit over 2 years after its initial release. It's crazy, an indie game dev could have released game(s), they've failed commercially, maybe they've shut up shop and/or changed careers, then there's a sudden windfall because some dude played their game and streamed it. Fact of the matter is, you can make a fucking awesome game and it can go completely under the radar, even if you do everything in your power "right". Such is the state of things right now.

 

[PompiPompi]

I mean imma be fair with you pompi, it's great that you're working on your hobby project and I hope you'll make good games in a future, but this game in its current state is the most generic rogue-lite ever. There are literally dozens of games like this across steam and google play store, all of them with nothing unique to offer that would make people choose them over some other, more interesting rogue-lite. It has the most basic gameplay and looks like your typical RPG-maker game #89271. Honestly, this is a great student project to try your gamedev skillz on, but don't ever bother marketing it. First make a game people would really be interested in

You didn't watch the video, didn't you?

You can follow this ^ advice and hope that you have that one in a million game which will be successful based on word of mouth alone.

If he aims to get some money from that game, he has to think hard about the marketing. Sad, but that is the state of Steam.

My 2 cents:
- the music int he trailer doesn't fit the artstlye and the feel of the game at all. It's some generic cinematic music, while the artstyle is just the opposite. Also there are some transitions in the video, which I assume you found somewhere and used here, because it is also looks too cinematic and professional compared to the rest of the video.
- the introduction text which you can read at the top right corner of the page still has that bad text which is grammatically incorrect and sounds bad in general.
- the general artstyle is decent, we have seen worse looking games becoming successful. The UI however looks like placeholder, and you should try to improve it.
- don't worry about spoiling too much in the trailer. Just show the core mechanics: combat, using the skills, showing enemies, big battles, showing inventory management. Maybe some story beats, but this shouldn't be a priority.

That said...
As someone who also just a hobby gamedev and learning to make and market a game, just don't be too focused on success. Make the game you want to make, make it as good as you are able. But don't stress about it, since it will probably be a failure. But if you are sticking to game development, maybe you will have that game which will be successfull. Just be consistent.

This isn't really a whole ton of marketing that the video suggest.
He doesn't suggest some elaborate campaign or marketing budget, or social media propaganda.

He just show you how people approach buying games on steam, and that word of mouth is actually the best marketing tool you have in case of Steam.

What he basically says, people want to know what is your game about, a big problem with devs is that they don't communicate what is the game, what genre how it plays.
Most people have certain kind of games they like, and they want to see how your game is familiar with the kind of games they like.

You are not going to convert a find the hidden object player into a CS:GO player, if she doesn't like those kind of games.
So basically, don't try to convert the people who don't like the genre and like the game, and just make it easy for people who already like the kind of games that you make to know that this game is for them.

A good example is that some developers think they should hide the GUI to make the screenshots more appealing. But the GUI can tell the consumer what is your game genre or how it plays, really quick.

So many of your points of showing gameplay and how the game plays are spot on.

 

[Citizen]

You didn't watch the video, didn't you?

An hour long marketing bullshit ted-talk? Didn't intent to, I've other plans for tonight. I don't think marketing inside steam store is even that important tho, the recent years showed that twitch and youtube content creators are much more impactful

 

[Citizen]

Whenever I find something interesting on steam I don't even watch steam videos/screenshots. 90% of the time they are just cinematic trailers and promotional images, many games don't feature actual gameplay videos or even actual in-game screenshots with visible UI, there no reason to read steam store page except for reviews. I instantly alt-tab into youtube and search for raw gameplay video of a game.

 

[J_C]

I don't think marketing inside steam store is even that important tho, the recent years showed that twitch and youtube content creators are much more impactful

Twitch and youtube creators are part of marketing, just sayin'.