What makes great encounters in RPGs?

[Delterius]

Something needs to be said about weaker encounters here.

While it's generally true that challenging foes are the most memorable, all encounters regardless of their strength have the potential to stand out when it comes to how well they fit within the particular milieu, how they integrate with the story and make sense in why and where they're placed, and their ability to make an impression on the player once dealt with.

If there's anything I hate it's meaningless trash encounters. They're invariably on the weaker side, usually placed simply to slow you down, soak up your time and/or resources and generally be annoying.

These are however the best opportunities for a developer to put more thought into encounter design as a whole. It's easy to place ultra-powerful creatures around every corner and laugh maniacally knowing the player is going to soon hopelessly crush his forehead against his desk out of desperation. But a few well thought-out, sensible encounters with creatures who can easily be dispatched, but that may make the player reflect on his decisions to do so, or even just to admire how far he's come in his progress, add a whole new meaning to playing the game itself.

Dragonlings that have to be killed for the safety of the town. Orc tribe pups who've all been diseased. Predatory birds that are otherwise harmless interfering with the livelihood of a fishing village.

These are examples of encounters that can impact the player's impression of a game just as much as the Foozle at the end.

This is a good point. That demonstrative weak encounters remain on the table for the player to actually appreciate his capacity. In my opinion, this is best done the Sozzy way. SoZ gave you the OPTION of actually engaging them and being able to avoid them based on your skills. A party leader with good survival skills (Move silent/hide/survival/listen/spot) would be able to avoid them or even lay traps for them! I don't like trash mobs being forced on the player as something necessary. But for the flavor of feeling invincible they are always there if you feel like cheesing.

Something else should be said about how encounters should make sense, including their power level. Someone presented as a threat should be a threat, but not everything is. Therefore, good encounter design isn't always challenging. Key is how much time you'll invest in non-challenging encounters before you are squandering the player's time.

 

[octavius]

There should be a reason for the encounter. "MONSTERS ATTACK!" get old real fast.

Also, both you and the enemies should have a wealth of options, the AI be able to use them, and the same rules should apply to monsters as for the player.

Regarding height advantage and such, which pure CRPGs includes that?
Only games I can think of using this that I've played is the Age of Wonders games, which is one of the reasons I love them.

 

[laclongquan]

There's only onething necessary: Destructible terrain with variable opponents.

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

There's only onething necessary: Destructible terrain with variable opponents.

Throwing force spells on buildings and watching them collapse on top of the heathens?



Were there any games that actually did that?

 

[Gozma]

X-Com: Apocalypse, Dwarf Fortress

Maybe a Minecraft clone or something I haven't heard of has done it

 

[Dorateen]

In terms of general encounter design, a favourite of mine has always been facing enemy parties. A rival group of adventurers as opponents who could have been rolled up just like any other PC. Monsters with classes. Not just random orcs, but an Orc Ranger, Orc Assassin, Orc Shaman, and so on.

The BG series excelled at this. But I was also fond of the encounter with the Lost Six in Icewind Dale 2.

 

[Erebus]

There should be a reason for the encounter. "MONSTERS ATTACK!" get old real fast.

I agree. Too many fights in CRPGs happen for no reason. And when there is a reason, it often doesn't hold water (why would bandits motivated by pure greed attack the party instead of much easier preys ?).

That's one thing Mysteries of Westgate did really well. I don't think there's a single gratuitous fight in the whole game.

In terms of general encounter design, a favourite of mine has always been facing enemy parties. A rival group of adventurers as opponents who could have been rolled up just like any other PC. Monsters with classes. Not just random orcs, but an Orc Ranger, Orc Assassin, Orc Shaman, and so on.

Also yes. Having a group of enemies just as diverse as the party is great fun : it gives the impression your foes are real individual instead of mindless drones and it makes designing your tactics much more entertaining. The fights against evil adventurers are one of the things I like most about the BG series.

 

[laclongquan]

There's only onething necessary: Destructible terrain with variable opponents.

Throwing force spells on buildings and watching them collapse on top of the heathens?



Were there any games that actually did that?

As far as I know, not a one. SF and realistic settings got a few, but fantasy has zip.

 

[Lilura]

a favourite of mine has always been facing enemy parties. A rival group of adventurers as opponents who could have been rolled up just like any other PC.

The BG series excelled at this. But I was also fond of the encounter with the Lost Six in Icewind Dale 2.

So much this.
Facing off against other adventuring parties was a highlight of IE combat. And Lost Followers in IWD2 was an epic example in Heart of Fury mode.

 

[DraQ]

I'd like to draw attention to positioning again. It's a subset of tactics, but it's the kind of tactics that can be applied a priori, and thus doesn't rely on AIs performance that much.

It's easy to make an encounter that's "challenging" through inflated stats, special abilities and overpowered items on part of the opposition.

Such an encounter won't be interesting to play, though, and will probably be easily cheeseable.
OTOH, encounter involving even weak foes, but placed in a way exploiting terrain and environmental opportunities will generally prove more interesting to play and more resistant to cheese, forcing player to exploit the environment too and possibly use what would otherwise be considered cheese tactics just to stay on even ground and counteract cheese used by enemies.

It's Tucker's kobolds VS Tarrasque approach.
I've probably seen a dozen or so ways of cheesing Tarrasque in the internets, whereas Tucker's kobolds cheesed the players instead.

 

[sea]

Goddamnit Sea. This is NOT about the mechanics of the game!

Good encounter design is all mechanics. You said it yourself. Therefore I don't know if there is anything else worth discussing that is generic to all games.

Does Diablo have "encounter design" for example, because you have more than 1 enemy that fights you at once? Since all enemies rush you when a fight starts anyway, wouldn't any positioning immediately become moot?

Is it right to say an encounter is automatically good if it has variety, challenge, etc.? Heck, you use a random encounter with trash mobs as an example of a good hand-built encounter! How is that good encounter design?

 

[DraQ]

Does Diablo have "encounter design" for example, because you have more than 1 enemy that fights you at once? Since all enemies rush you when a fight starts anyway, wouldn't any positioning immediately become moot?

That's untrue.

most ranged attackers smarter than skeleton archers run away and maintain distance, some enemies have charge attacks, some enemies open doors, while others can't, different enemies have different pathfinding capabilities and there are chokepoints and obstacles that can't be crossed, but can be seen and fired through.

Even in Diablo positioning is important.

 

[DraQ]

Even in Diablo positioning is important.

I would even say it is crucial, since in Diablo 1 there is not run option. Every creature, including player character moves in steps. As said by DraQ, you have certain tactical elements, like barrels, which often decide between life and death, when 30 demon spawns charge to tear your body into bloody pieces.

Ah, yes. In D2 you could just afterburner to safety if you were having your ass handed to you.

In D1 you were thoroughly fucked if you went in over your head without plan B.

 

[Sensuki]

A good 'normal' encounter in BG: TotSC was in Durlag's Tower - one of the levels had some of those Helmed Skeleton Archers ... not a foe to be feared on their own, but they were on platforms covered with Sleeping Cloud traps, I reckon most people on their first playthrough woulda lost a party member or two in that encounter if they didn't detect the traps.

 

[sea]

That's untrue.

most ranged attackers smarter than skeleton archers run away and maintain distance, some enemies have charge attacks, some enemies open doors, while others can't, different enemies have different pathfinding capabilities and there are chokepoints and obstacles that can't be crossed, but can be seen and fired through.

Even in Diablo positioning is important.

Okay, that's fair. I was referring more to Diablo II/III and Torchlight models though.

 

[Psquit]

A good 'normal' encounter in BG: TotSC was in Durlag's Tower - one of the levels had some of those Helmed Skeleton Archers ... not a foe to be feared on their own, but they were on platforms covered with Sleeping Cloud traps, I reckon most people on their first playthrough woulda lost a party member or two in that encounter if they didn't detect the traps.

thast why i always send my thief first.

 

[Sensuki]

Durlag's Tower. The cause of many-a-RPG player's paranoia towards traps.