What is the most NERFED class on P&P adaptations?

[Cryomancer]

Do people actully bitch about that? I thought Kingmaker handeled it's resting really well, by allowing you to rest as much as you like but giving you incentive to not abuse it. Granted some people will bitch about any rest system ever, it's part of the reason why the abomination ,that is deadfire casters, exists.

The deadfire casters with casts per encounter exists by a reason. On PoE 1, wizards are EXTREMELY weak. One thing is to have 3 casts per rest of stop time, wail of the banshee or a fireball that can end a lv 5 encounter. Other thing is when enemies has extremely high amount of hit points and you need like 10 spells to kill a enemy... On PoE 1, they was so weak that they had to change it into casts per encounter.

 

[BarbequeMasta]

Do people actully bitch about that? I thought Kingmaker handeled it's resting really well, by allowing you to rest as much as you like but giving you incentive to not abuse it. Granted some people will bitch about any rest system ever, it's part of the reason why the abomination ,that is deadfire casters, exists.

The deadfire casters with casts per encounter exists by a reason. On PoE 1, wizards are EXTREMELY weak. One thing is to have 3 casts per rest of stop time, wail of the banshee or a fireball that can end a lv 5 encounter. Other thing is when enemies has extremely high amount of hit points and you need like 10 spells to kill a enemy... On PoE 1, they was so weak that they had to change it into casts per encounter.

Deadfire casters are still far weaker than POE1 though, precisely because they have 2 (or 3 with empower) casts per encounter of dogshit even more nerfed spells that take 10 years to cast.
Wizards and Priests damaging spells might leave things to be desired in POE1, but they still excelled in other areas, Self buffing battle wizards in particular has a fairly good claim for being the strongest class in the game, not to mention CC and protections. In deadfire they're just trash all around.
Also 3 spells per encounter is a strict downgrade power wise than 4 per rest when it comes to major enocunters.

 

[Piotrovitz]

On PoE 1, wizards are EXTREMELY weak.
...
Other thing is when enemies has extremely high amount of hit points and you need like 10 spells to kill a enemy... On PoE 1, they was so weak that they had to change it into casts per encounter.

Wizards in most of crpgs, especially PoE1, are all about AoE CC, and every kid who played the game on anything more difficult than story mode knows that.

The fact that you judge mage's usefulness by his DPS is rather sad.

 

[Max Damage]

Seconding wizards being unmatched when it comes to CC. PoE's wizards can also dish out lots of pain when needed, I've found them to be one of the best classes to stack because of how powerful and versatile they are.

 

[Cryomancer]

Wizards in most of crpgs, especially PoE1, are all about AoE CC,

Not true. On BG2, for example, i as a lv 20 sorcerer can unleash 60d6 MAGICAL damage in a single instant by casting a sequencer + 3 skull traps. I can also cast Black Blade of Disaster, Stone Skin, improved Haste, and tenser transformation and have like -13 THAC0, 5 attacks per round each one with a +5 weapon dealing 20 damage(avg) per attack or 100 if all hit, healing my caster and making the enemy do a save vs death 5 times per round or be dead; Can also OHK enemies with finger of death and wail of the banshee. Not mentioning all powerful summons that i can have...

On Dark Sun - Shattered Lands, without domination(tier 5), i would't be able to finish the ridiculous tough final battle.

On Might & Magic VI, Sharpmetal at CQB can end even dragons and titans quickly

On ToEE, i ended some encounters with a single fireball.

And i don't judge mages only on DPS. If the game wanna be a spiritual successor to BG, i expect to be able to make a evoker wizard nuking enemies, or a necromancer wizard. And guess what : Conjurerers are very popular on BG1/2 with 20% of votes on the best specialization ( https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/3640/favourite-mage-specialisation-bg-series )

And i found psicionics far better even on controlling enemies on PoE1 since i have no limit on resting and being able to take control over enemies turning a 4x6 into a 6x4 in few rounds...

 

[Syme]

I'd say Clerics, to a degree. They're by no means a bad class, you can still easily build a frontliner or zen archer or healbot, but they're simply not the powerhouse they are in PnP.

They only gain 2-3 spells instead of 9 from each domain, meaning they're losing out on important spells like Time Stop or Mind Blank. They also don't get a bonus domain spell slot for each spell level. NWN also changed some of the domain abilities for the worse, like Travel giving you a useless 10% faster movement instead of the much more useful Freedom of Movement for 1 round per level, or the Magic Domain giving you some Wizard spells instead of letting you use scrolls and wands as if you were a Wizard of half your level.

Like Wizards mentioned earlier in the thread, their spell list is severely limited compared to PnP, but while Wizards would need to learn their spells from scrolls and spell books, Clerics simply ask their god for any spell they want. So with every splatbook that was released, Clerics automatically added more spells to their ever-growing spell list.

The lackluster Create Undead spell was already mentioned, but Clerics are also hurt by the shitty implementation of one of their exclusive Cleric spells: Planar Ally. Instead of being able to chose from any outsider that matches your alignment, you get to summon a Succubus, a Sylph, or a fucking bear. There is also no Greater Planar Ally spell and at higher levels you're likely not gonna waste a sixth level spell slot that could be filled with Heal or Greater Dispel.

They also lack one of the most no-brainer PnP feats: Divine Metamagic, which lets you spend Turn Undead attempts to spontaneously apply any known Metamagic feat to any spell without using a higher level spell slot.

NWN also lacks Nightsticks, which are a type of rod that lets you Turn Undead 4 more times every day per stick. Nightsticks/Divine Metamagic are a well-known combo, but even without that feat they'd still be useful for extra Divine Might/Shield per day.

 

[Mastermind]

And one summon limit is a arbitrary rule.

That's just as well, there's a severe xp penalty with every extra party member you have in nwn1 (including summons). made the mistake of playing through SoU with a druid, which meant companion + animal + summon and i didn't get level 3 spells until near the end of the game.

 

[Cryomancer]

They only gain 2-3 spells instead of 9 from each domain, meaning they're losing out on important spells like Time Stop or Mind Blank. They also don't get a bonus domain spell slot for each spell level. NWN also changed some of the domain abilities for the worse, like Travel giving you a useless 10% faster movement instead of the much more useful Freedom of Movement for 1 round per level, or the Magic Domain giving you some Wizard spells instead of letting you use scrolls and wands as if you were a Wizard of half your level.

Yep. On 3.5e P&P, Clerics can do everything that a Wizard can do, in armor, with 2x hit dice, better saves, healing capabilities, etc.

But there are any game besides BG2 that allow a wizard to throw 60d8 damage in a instant?

 

[Max Damage]

3.5e nerfed blasters big time, spells do same damage as AD&D, but enemies have bigger health pools, and spells allow save for half damage, AND do 0 damage when Evasion happens. I ban Evocation every time I pick specialized wizard in ToEE, the spells are pathetic compared to everything else you can cast.

 

[The Avatar]

To be fair, most monsters don't have evasion, not all blasting spells require a saving throw, and you can always increase the damage with empower/maximize. The AOE damage can be significant in terms of total damage dealt if you can get enough creatures in the blast. I'd say a more likely reason why blasters aren't that great is because they run out of blasts too quickly while your machine gun archer friend can keep on going as long as there are arrows.

 

[Cryomancer]

3.5e nerfed blasters big time, spells do same damage as AD&D, but enemies have bigger health pools

Yep. Players also has bigger health pools. Past lv 10 on BG2 you gain almost no HP.

But even on 3.5e, blasters can be quite strong. And on 2e, the best spells are necromancy ones

• Wail of the Banshee >>> Meteor Swarm
• Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting is literally the highest damage per round in the game and has no friendly fire.
• Finger of Death >>> Delayed blast fireball
• Skull trap >>> Fireball

Take nizidramanii'yt for eg. Before talking to the dragon, i've stopped the time and casted a lot of lower resistance on him. Then my chain contingency casted the rest, lowering his resistance by about 150%. My sequencer casted 3 Greater Malison on him, meaning that he has a 12 penalty on saves and then, i casted stop time again, putted 3 skull traps in a sequences and ended his life in a fraction of a minute.

 

[The Avatar]

Take nizidramanii'yt for eg. Before talking to the dragon, i've stopped the time and casted a lot of lower resistance on him. Then my chain contingency casted the rest, lowering his resistance by about 150%. My sequencer casted 3 Greater Malison on him, meaning that he has a 12 penalty on saves and then, i casted stop time again, putted 3 skull traps in a sequences and ended his life in a fraction of a minute.

See folks, this is what playing a Wizard is all about.

 

[Cryomancer]

See folks, this is what playing a Wizard is all about.

Sorcerer in reality. But arcane magic is one thing that Pillars of Eternity FAILS miserably in being a "spiritual baldur's gate successor". Mostly due the "balance cult"... From a lv 1 charm to a lv 9 stop time, each spell on BG fells powerful and good. PoE 1 in other hands, they fell weak like in a wow clone mmo...

 

[The Avatar]

Really? Each spell in BG feels powerful and good? Even the first level Infravision?

 

[Cryomancer]

Really? Each spell in BG feels powerful and good? Even the first level Infravision?

IS probably the most situational among the first one. But you got the idea. You can do a lot of things with arcane casters on BG that you can't on "spiritual successors".

I an not saying that PoE1 is bad, but honestly, everything that PoE1 did, NWN2 did better. Including the crossroad keep vs the completely dissociated keep on poe1. And with mods to remove the nerfs that Obsidian did to certain classes(wlk, pale masters, etc), NWN2 become much better. Lets see if Larian will not do the same. Necromancers are the most butchered specialization/"class" on most TTRPG adaptations since BG2(last TT adaptation with decent necromancy that i know)... I asked Larian if they will ruin necromancer by limiting you to one summon on reddit ama but they din't answered. So i an assuming the worst.

 

[Cryomancer]

Sorry for bumping but since a lot of people has information about NWN2, Did NWN2 devs said why they nerfed so much a lot of spells? I an re playing NWN2 with Dread necromancer mod. To have a notion about how nerfed things are on NWN2,

Cloudkill duration on NWN2 = 6 seconds / 2 levels ( https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Cloudkill )
3.5e SRD = Duration: 1 min./level ( https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Cloudkill )

On P&P, cloudkill IGNORES SPELL RESISTANCE AND DOESN'T ALLOW saves(on enemies with more than 6 hit dices)... But looking only the duration. A lv 20 wizard on NWN2 casts a cloudkill with the same duration of a lv 1 wizard with a scroll... On P&P the spell also moves forward, meaning that if for example enemies are invading your fortification, broke the walls, this spell alone can slay an entire army of low level invaders(if you trap then). If i remember correctly, Strahd uses this spell on a novel and the effect was pretty impressive.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I second and third the comments here about BG2 wizards, the changes from 2E to 3.5E, and the pitiful abortion that PoE wizards are. Sorcerers in BG are fine and all, but I prefer the varied spellbook of a mage. Especially when it's a wild mage. Now THAT was power. Suddenly at around Level 15, your 1st level spell slots become the most important in your book. Nothing beats the rush of throwing around Nahal's Wild Dweomer, provoking all manner of surges. Made me feel like a manic emperor Palpatine shrieking, "UNLIMITED POWER! MWA HAHAHAHA!" It's baffling how no game has yet brought this glory back to CRPGs.

 

[Cryomancer]

and the pitiful abortion that PoE wizards are

Not counting kotor 2, there are ANY Obsidian game with good sorceries/wizardries(and yes, force lightning can be considered sorcery IMO)? I had the impression that Obsidian assumed that the PC will play always as a human fighter on NWN2. Not only due the ludicrous nerfs that they made to most arcane spells but also due the writing and the fact that most bosses require that you start the fight at CQB with the MC exposed to the enemies.. BTW, obsidian did a AMAZING job with firearms on new vegas, i wish that outer worlds firearms had the same treatment.

Back to nwn2. When i played without spell fixes, my MC was being completely useless. My Paladin with a tier 1 spell could add +2d6(bless weapon) or any Druidic buff in a weapon that deals +d10 elemental damage was doing more non physical damage per round than a evoker wizard... And he din't needed to care about invasion/improved invsaion. And against undead, he was even better. While my OHK spells(unique good thing) worth nothing.

 

[Parabalus]

3.5e nerfed blasters big time, spells do same damage as AD&D, but enemies have bigger health pools

Yep. Players also has bigger health pools. Past lv 10 on BG2 you gain almost no HP.

But even on 3.5e, blasters can be quite strong. And on 2e, the best spells are necromancy ones

• Wail of the Banshee >>> Meteor Swarm
• Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting is literally the highest damage per round in the game and has no friendly fire.
• Finger of Death >>> Delayed blast fireball
• Skull trap >>> Fireball

Take nizidramanii'yt for eg. Before talking to the dragon, i've stopped the time and casted a lot of lower resistance on him. Then my chain contingency casted the rest, lowering his resistance by about 150%. My sequencer casted 3 Greater Malison on him, meaning that he has a 12 penalty on saves and then, i casted stop time again, putted 3 skull traps in a sequences and ended his life in a fraction of a minute.

This is precisely why wizards got gutted and rightfully so.

When it's easier to solo the game with wizards than keeping a full party alive there's a big issue.

 

[Silly Germans]

3.5e nerfed blasters big time, spells do same damage as AD&D, but enemies have bigger health pools

Yep. Players also has bigger health pools. Past lv 10 on BG2 you gain almost no HP.

But even on 3.5e, blasters can be quite strong. And on 2e, the best spells are necromancy ones

• Wail of the Banshee >>> Meteor Swarm
• Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting is literally the highest damage per round in the game and has no friendly fire.
• Finger of Death >>> Delayed blast fireball
• Skull trap >>> Fireball

Take nizidramanii'yt for eg. Before talking to the dragon, i've stopped the time and casted a lot of lower resistance on him. Then my chain contingency casted the rest, lowering his resistance by about 150%. My sequencer casted 3 Greater Malison on him, meaning that he has a 12 penalty on saves and then, i casted stop time again, putted 3 skull traps in a sequences and ended his life in a fraction of a minute.

Does Greater Malison stack ? I thought it doesn't. Or are you using mods ?

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

3.5e nerfed blasters big time, spells do same damage as AD&D, but enemies have bigger health pools

Yep. Players also has bigger health pools. Past lv 10 on BG2 you gain almost no HP.

But even on 3.5e, blasters can be quite strong. And on 2e, the best spells are necromancy ones

• Wail of the Banshee >>> Meteor Swarm
• Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting is literally the highest damage per round in the game and has no friendly fire.
• Finger of Death >>> Delayed blast fireball
• Skull trap >>> Fireball

Take nizidramanii'yt for eg. Before talking to the dragon, i've stopped the time and casted a lot of lower resistance on him. Then my chain contingency casted the rest, lowering his resistance by about 150%. My sequencer casted 3 Greater Malison on him, meaning that he has a 12 penalty on saves and then, i casted stop time again, putted 3 skull traps in a sequences and ended his life in a fraction of a minute.

How the hell you get skull trap to do 94 damage? :D

 

[Daidre]

3.5e nerfed blasters big time, spells do same damage as AD&D, but enemies have bigger health pools

Yep. Players also has bigger health pools. Past lv 10 on BG2 you gain almost no HP.

But even on 3.5e, blasters can be quite strong. And on 2e, the best spells are necromancy ones

• Wail of the Banshee >>> Meteor Swarm
• Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting is literally the highest damage per round in the game and has no friendly fire.
• Finger of Death >>> Delayed blast fireball
• Skull trap >>> Fireball

Take nizidramanii'yt for eg. Before talking to the dragon, i've stopped the time and casted a lot of lower resistance on him. Then my chain contingency casted the rest, lowering his resistance by about 150%. My sequencer casted 3 Greater Malison on him, meaning that he has a 12 penalty on saves and then, i casted stop time again, putted 3 skull traps in a sequences and ended his life in a fraction of a minute.

How the hell you get skull trap to do 94 damage? :D

Scull Trap was uncapped 1d6/level in original BGs. But lot of the tweakpacks, fixpacks and other mods like SCS were fixing it though, limiting damage to 12d6. Iirc some of them even embedded into EEs.

 

[Cryomancer]

Does Greater Malison stack ? I thought it doesn't. Or are you using mods ?

Strange, for me always stacked. A video bellow

Scull Trap was uncapped 1d6/level in original BGs. But lot of the tweakpacks, fixpacks and other mods like SCS were fixing it though, limiting damage to 12d6. Iirc some of them even embedded into EEs.

Is capped at lv 20 not 10 like a fireball

"About one fifth smaller blast range than Fireball, but scales up to level 20 instead of 10, and dishes out magical damage, not the more commonly resisted fire type. If a high level mage stock up three Skull Traps in one Spell Sequencer, the max damage potential would be as high as 3 x 20 x 1d6. Do notice the delay before the explosion though, and place the traps accordingly." https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Skull_Trap

On Icewind dale, they has no caster level cap. "Skull Traps can be very deadly, capable of doing up to three times the 30d6 magic damage (which is a maximum of 540) for a level 30 caster – to all creatures in the area of effect." https://icewinddale.fandom.com/wiki/Skull_Trap

This is precisely why wizards got gutted and rightfully so.

When it's easier to solo the game with wizards than keeping a full party alive there's a big issue.

Wrong. The most powerful classes to solo the game are multiclass.

IMO the best edition on D&D for martial combat is 2e, for magical warfare is 3.5e. For streamlined combat 5e.

 

[Absinthe]

Yep. But this is a technology limitation. Nobody expect spells like this or raise Island to be in a video game. But i expect that a greater invocation casted by a maxed epic warlock would be useful in grappling a enemy with 25 AC... And spoiler, a lv 11 WLK on P&P is stronger than a lv 30 WLK on nwn2(at least on casting the most iconic greater invocation)

In Populous: The Beginning, you can use the Volcano spell to raise an island wherever you want. You usually use it to screw over enemy bases, or to obtain high elevation terrain, but you can also cast it on water to get land once the lava cools and then settle it. That's an RTS though.

 

[Cryomancer]

In Populous: The Beginning, you can use the Volcano spell to raise an island wherever you want. You usually use it to screw over enemy bases, or to obtain high elevation terrain, but you can also cast it on water to get land once the lava cools and then settle it. That's an RTS though.

Strategy games generally do sorcery and necromancy better than RPG's... I mean, i love M&M VI, but HoMM3 has way cooler spells.