What determines the immersion of a RPG?

[Cosmic]

It's all about the music. An RPG can have a believable, nicely crafted world but feel off because of a sub-par choice of music. A good soundtrack, ambiance, sound effects or their lack thereof are the foundation of making an immersive game.

 

[Disciple]

Immersion in video games is a bit of a buzzword, but I'd be careful not to equate it with addictiveness. A video game can be very addictive while disregarding immersion.

Secondly, I'd also try to delimit what video game features are susceptible of having their degree of immersiveness scrutinized. Is CRPG immersion only about 'cinematic' and storytelling aspects? Or can different approaches to CRPG design (those that affect facets such as exploration, combat, or NPC interaction) result in varied gameplay elements, some of which may be more immersive than others?

I don't think immersion is the be-all and end-all of RPGs, anyway. After all, they descend from TTRPGs, which are highly abstract schemes themselves. A radical interpretation of immersion would eventually lead to the questioning of RPG staples such as turn based combat or hit points, and it'd conceive a game more in tune with what we call simulators.

 

[Bigg Boss]

I don't know about immersion but if the log or journal looks like a retard designed it I wanna ask a random NPC in town where the place is like a normal person would, but they aren't programmed to tell me where it is.

 

[anvi]

There are games that can grab 100% of your attention to the point that you tune out the real world and are completely focused on the game. I think of that as being absorbed more than being immersed, but it is still amazing and takes you away from real life for a while. It can happen with games that aren't even immersive, like card games and Civilization, or books, movies, chess, etc.

But with immersion you feel like you are really in the game. And I think you can be absorbed too, or not absorbed at all, yet still feel immersed. I've had it happen with third person games and things, but it is mostly first person view that does it for me. And I still think EQ is the benchmark for lots of things in gaming including this. To get really immersed it needs clever sound design and things all working in harmony with the graphics to feel like you are there. Some games are better than others at it and graphical fidelity doesn't seem to be that important, because some old games can still immerse me more than Skyrim or Crysis or whatever. I don't really know what makes the difference, but I remember friends in real life talking about EQ and saying it didn't feel like a game, it felt like another world inside your screen you could get completely absorbed into for hours. And I felt it too. I felt it in 'blobbers' earlier, I think when stuff gets right up close to you and fills your screen, maybe that feels more immersive. That was something I was always surprised by in EQ, stuff seemed really close when you are fighting.

 

[laclongquan]

Fallout 1/2: you can really pretend to be VD or Chosen One and can play the game in your own narration.
Fallout NV: you can really pretend to be a thematic personality (cowboy, ex-soldier, mercenary...) and play the game that way. Combo with TTW you can also pretend to be V101 Wanderer that provide a different perspective on Mojave's events.

Funnily enough, I can never pretend to be a bhaalspawn. At all. The immersion factor in BG1/2 is not as high~

 

[Funposter]

Verisimilitude is the word we want to be discussing. So usually that means a coherent art design/direction, logical writing and character motivations, imagined worlds with an actual history and not just a sense or "feeling" of it. This applies to all games and not just RPGs, it's just that "immersion" is a buzzword for RPGs because you spend so much more time playing them. There are also secondary factors such as sound design (music + ambience) and gameplay considerations such as hunger/survival mechanics and the like, but clunky implementation can often lead to the feeling of being less immersed, and things like this will never work properly if the world itself isn't up to par. It's why Skyrim doesn't really "immerse" the player even with 200 mods relating to immersion, because no amount of ambience, survival gameplay or realistic damage can cut through the stupid setting, dialogue and characters. The shortlist would probably be:

Morrowind (setting, history, worldbuilding)
VTMB (characters, dialogue)
Fallout and FNV (setting, characters, worldbuilding, dialogue)

Stepping outside of the realm of RPGs, Middle-earth would be the go-to for something that you feel "immersed" in when reading Tolkine's books, since it feels like a real place. Lots of nerds like Warhammer 40,000 because of the ridiculous amount of lore and writing, primarily surrounding the Horus Heresy, which make the setting feel like a real place with a real history, even if the aesthetic is completely over-the-top. On the flip side, something like Forgotten Realms I can never get into, because it just feels like an artificial, fantasy soup setting. Pathfinder is even worse. The positive then, for a game like Pathfinder: KM or WOTR, is that the writing can suck and I don't really care because I'm playing it for the mechanics, not the setting or the story.

Edit: In an open-world RPG, the setting is the story.

 

[curds]

I've said it before but I think immersion has less to do with FPP and baking bread and more to with engrossing mechanics.

For example I found x-com: ufo defense immersive but not skyrim.

Apologies if somebody already said that, I didn't read the thread.

 

[EldarEldrad]

But what determines the RPG itself?

 

[naleth]

I think that the game to be immersive should have at least one of:

• I need to want to know more about the world in which game takes place. I'm not talking specifically about main plot, but more about game world itself and side quests that tell the story about it. The best examples of it for me are PST, FT:NV and to some extent W2 DC.
• Some games have mechanics that make me think all the time about optimal way to achieve some goal and I keep thinking about it forgetting about the world around. From RPG games I had something like that in IWD and currently in PF:KM, but there are great examples of it in non-RPG games, for example Factorio and Kerbal Space Program.
• Sound and Music. Sometimes I think I didn't really like BG & BGII that much but I played them so much mainly because of excellent music. In more recent games I think Expeditions: Viking had great soundtrack. This is much more important for me that graphics.

I do not really understand the hype around immersion of first-person games. When I read a book I may feel that I am main character but still I imagine everything as distant observer and I am fully immersed in it. The same is with games - 3rd person camera or isometric view add to immersion, not remove from it.

 

[fantadomat]

But what determines the RPG itself?

 

[octavius]

You know a game is immersive when you suddenly notice your apartment is filled with smoke from the charred remains of the pizza you forgot in the oven.

 

[Hag]

But what "immersion" means in the first place ? How is it different from "flow" or "suspension of disbelief" ?

I'd say flow state is easily triggered by sensory feedback. Well-timed music or visual effect or repetition make you enter a fully concentrated state of mind. For a good example see Unreal Tournament or other good'ol MP shooters where you dive 100% in the game, making one with the systems to be the best player. For bad example see League of Legend or Candy-Crush - modern trash that use an overabundance of eye-candy and quick rewards.

Suspension of disbelief is all about consistency and managing player's sensibility. It allows the player to appropriate himself the environment and therefore creating a familiarity with it, generating interest and renewed curiosity. The longer the player forget he is playing a game, the more he will get involved with it, and come back to it. Leveled creatures are an example of something that gets you out of a game's mood. Too artificial. Contrary to flow, this is wildly dependent on personality and culture.

So, what about immersion ? I'd say it would be akin cultural immersion. Not attention-grabbing (flow) or well-crafted environment (suspension of disbelief), but something that tickle the curiosity, makes you want to know more, to stay a little longer. Not immediately engrossing, but with enough depth and coherency you can have brief moments of "being there". Maybe not for long, but for real. Campfires in Stalker. A well-timed sunset in TES games. Closing the shop late at night in My Summer Car. Some emotional moments in Planetscape : Torment. It is all very personal.
Maybe it is about the power to create those memories, to close the gap between fiction and reality.

 

[KateMicucci]

One of the top things that takes me out of a fantasy game is women casually working as town guards or in traditionally male positions of authority. Especially when they only appear female but could be genderswapped with no change in the writing and it would actually work better.

Red Sonyas and Britomarts are fine but they should be the exception not the rule as they are in many recent RPGs. Even lots of female warriors like Sisters of Battle are fine, but a female commissar or techpriest is weird.

 

[gurugeorge]

But what "immersion" means in the first place ? How is it different from "flow" or "suspension of disbelief" ?

Flow is different, that's more to do with gameplay (I call it "engagement" in a post above).

Immersion is pretty close to suspension of disbelief, but it's heightened because in a game you are the character (you're not just observing the character and empathizing with them, as in a suspension of disbelief scenario in a play or movie). It is the feeling of "being there" in the gameworld, the feeling that you are that character, in that world. A typical example everyone probably remembers is cresting a hill to a sunrise/sunset view for the first time in Oblivion, or something like that - for a magical moment you feel like you're in the virtual world. It's not always there, but when it's there it's quite strong, and when it's really strong it's called "presence." (I've had the presence state on only a few occasions in games, it's very striking and unusual.)

If I were to venture a general, vague sort of explanation, it's when the brain starts interpreting the sensory inputs from the game as present sensory inputs from the world (i.e. the world the brain exists in: "Oh I'm in this place," type of thing). If the brain is mildly fooled, you feel immersed, if it's really fooled, you get presence.

The blend of gameplay flow state and immersion is the USP of videogames, it's what potentially makes them a unique and brilliant art form.

 

[laclongquan]

One of the top things that takes me out of a fantasy game is women casually working as town guards or in traditionally male positions of authority. Especially when they only appear female but could be genderswapped with no change in the writing and it would actually work better.

Red Sonyas and Britomarts are fine but they should be the exception not the rule as they are in many recent RPGs. Even lots of female warriors like Sisters of Battle are fine, but a female commissar or techpriest is weird.

The one thing prevent females in such career is mostly power of arms. Aka they really need to use their own martial prowess to beat submissions into their subs.

In fantasy games, they have magic and goddesses to rely on. So it's totally possible.

 

[KateMicucci]

One of the top things that takes me out of a fantasy game is women casually working as town guards or in traditionally male positions of authority. Especially when they only appear female but could be genderswapped with no change in the writing and it would actually work better.

Red Sonyas and Britomarts are fine but they should be the exception not the rule as they are in many recent RPGs. Even lots of female warriors like Sisters of Battle are fine, but a female commissar or techpriest is weird.

The one thing prevent females in such career is mostly power of arms. Aka they really need to use their own martial prowess to beat submissions into their subs.

In fantasy games, they have magic and goddesses to rely on. So it's totally possible.

A sorceress queen or priestess, sure no problem. Even a rare ladyknight, fine, as long as its not a throwaway character. That sort of thing has a long pedigree in literature and its fine.

But just genderswapping half the town guard, making the generals of the army female, it's cringe. Especially when the genderswapped characters are written as men. For example Verse in Tyranny talking about how she wants to go visit a brothel. I don't know who that kind of thing is trying to please.

 

[Shaki]

But what determines the RPG itself?

Was answered long time ago

 

[Harthwain]

But just genderswapping half the town guard, making the generals of the army female, it's cringe. Especially when the genderswapped characters are written as men. For example Verse in Tyranny talking about how she wants to go visit a brothel. I don't know who that kind of thing is trying to please.

Verse wasn't "genderswapped". She was purposefully written to be an extremely aggressive woman, because that's what it took to survive in the environment she was in. This is very different from the sex-interchangeable NPCs, who exist solely to provide "gender variety" (and opposed to Arcanum or Fallout, where character's sex has more meaning besides what model is displayed on screen).

 

[KateMicucci]

Verse wasn't "genderswapped". She was purposefully written to be an extremely aggressive woman, because that's what it took to survive in the environment she was in. This is very different from the sex-interchangeable NPCs, who exist solely to provide "gender variety" (and opposed to Arcanum or Fallout, where character's sex has more meaning besides what model is displayed on screen).

If you changed Verse's portrait, name and pronouns, there's nothing to indicate that she's female except for a throwaway line about childbirth. Call him Tenor, purposefully written to be an extremely aggressive man, because that's what it took to survive in the environment he was in.

 

[0wca]

Honestly, it's the whole package, but the music is definitely a big part for me. I have a musical background so I'm probably very biased on that front, but a mediocre soundtrack in an otherwise great game won't push it to mastepiece level for me.

Obviously all the other stuff matters like gameplay and presentation but I'd say the second thing that makes it immersive for me is the setting and the writing coupled with a great soundtrack. If the dialogues are poor quality it keeps breaking my immersion. But that being said, the music is what pulls me in and stays with me when I finish it, if it was a great soundtrack.

Too bad most RPG soundtracks today rely on generic horn sections and try to be too bombastic while achieving the exact opposite in the end - everything is blowing up and so, nothing is. There are a few exceptions; Underrail had a great, immersive soundtrack for instance. And of course in old-school terms, PS:T's soundtrack still makes my hair stand on end when I hear it, but that's probably also nostalgia.

 

[Rincewind]

Honestly, it's the whole package, but the music is definitely a big part for me. I have a musical background so I'm probably very biased on that front, but a mediocre soundtrack in an otherwise great game won't push it to mastepiece level for me.

I'm the same and I really like the soundtrack of the Gothic games. The music of Björn Pankratz has an umistakable mood and character that just pushes the right buttons for me. Although, after a while I tend to turn the soundtrack off and just listen to the environmental sounds.

Similarly, I liked to music of Banner Saga and Witcher 1 a lot; for me those tracks were at least 40% of the whole experience.

But we have to realise that not all people are that musical like you and me, and some people might not just care about the music at all. So, it's quite personal.

 

[Zlaja]

First person perspective

Almost stopped reading here.

Music breaks immersion for me, at least in first person view games

Wait, your immersion was broken by the music in games like Deus Ex (original), Ultima Underworld and Morrowind? Really?

Nothing,it is game and you are aware of it. Especially rpgs,they are impossible to immerse in to.

Dude, there's a difference between immersion and "living your life inside a videogame, because I'm a massive loser". Also, for the love of God, put a space after comma.

I do get immersed in blobbers

It's that old graphics. It just more immersive, for some reason, then the photo realistic bore they strive for these days.

If M&M VII had Diablo 3 cartoonish graphics and mechanics, I would't get immersed on it.

As much as I like MM 6 & 7, it's kind of hard getting immersed in those, when the games and the combat encounters are so over the top. More rogue like blobbers tend to be more down to earth.

Also agree with the points about the Gothic games (and let's not forget about ELEX).

NEVER forget about Elex!

-Leveled loot - this instantly pulls be out of any game

Yeah, and don't forget constanly respawning loot. Pisses me off. This only works in games like D2.

Ever tried playing games like Diablo 1, Vampires BLoodlines or Silent Hill 2 with your headphones jacked in, and some beverage at hand at night

No, 'cause I was too much of a pussy when SH2 was originally released, so I only played it during the day. Shamefur dispray, I know.

characters telling you their life stories after meeting you for the first time

Hey, some types do that shit in real life. Especially grumpy old men and feminists with a very punchable face.

 

[BruceVC]

One of the top things that takes me out of a fantasy game is women casually working as town guards or in traditionally male positions of authority. Especially when they only appear female but could be genderswapped with no change in the writing and it would actually work better.

Red Sonyas and Britomarts are fine but they should be the exception not the rule as they are in many recent RPGs. Even lots of female warriors like Sisters of Battle are fine, but a female commissar or techpriest is weird.

Yes this can seen as historically inaccurate but if they wearing chainmail bikini armor then we should be fine with it in the interests of aesthetics and artistic license which is definitely acceptable with most fantasy RPG

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Just compare Tolkien's works to works that are less believable to understand what makes them believable. A lot of it comes down to recognizing things that exist in our world and shouldn't in another, and those that can't exist in our world but may in another. This should be extended much further in e.g., more fantastical worlds.

Anachronisms are a big one, obviously. Even Lord of the Rings isn't free from them. Some of them are on purpose(LotR's framing device is that it's a book translated into English; therefore the translator would use modern words), some are probably accidents. The framing device itself, Tolkien picked it on purpose of course. A lot of effort is spent establishing the framing device in the story itself.
Attention to details: Middle Earth doesn't use our calendar of course, that would be silly. There's even multiple calendars used by each of the races. And this extends to minor details: the phases of the moon are described in detail and tend to match up perfectly with the days that pass throughout the books.

Christopher Tolkien actually got rid of a lot of inconsistencies in later editions of the published books

I cannot see anything but advantage in getting rid of inconsistencies of this nature which puzzle observant readers and diminish the very credibility that my father was so anxious to maintain. Of course if he had noticed this inconsistency himself or had it pointed out to him he would have altered it without a second thought

FYI, some errors are actually on purpose -- again, due to the framing device. Translation errors, unreliable narrator, etc., The additional notes Tolkien makes(writing as the fictitious Tolkien) help make the works believable.

 

[Harthwain]

Verse wasn't "genderswapped". She was purposefully written to be an extremely aggressive woman, because that's what it took to survive in the environment she was in. This is very different from the sex-interchangeable NPCs, who exist solely to provide "gender variety" (and opposed to Arcanum or Fallout, where character's sex has more meaning besides what model is displayed on screen).

If you changed Verse's portrait, name and pronouns, there's nothing to indicate that she's female except for a throwaway line about childbirth. Call him Tenor, purposefully written to be an extremely aggressive man, because that's what it took to survive in the environment he was in.

Um, sure, but that's "if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle" type of situation and can be applied to almost any character.