Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[felipepepe]

Hell, even the new screenshot of the overland map screen looks a lot like the one from Fallout.

Which screen are you referring to? The actual overland looks more like post-apoc Storm of Zehir than anything else.

The 2D map won't have fog of war in the actual game: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2/posts/633697#comments
http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/383591159
Thomas Beekers about 14 hours ago
@Josh Moody We "fog of war"-ed it so that we could avoid spoilers for our backers.

Boooooooooooo!

 

[Infinitron]

felipepepe What's wrong? You'll still have to discover new locations you don't know about. You just know the geography. The Rangers already surveyed it in Wasteland 1, after all.

 

[felipepepe]

felipepepe What's wrong? You'll still have to discover new locations you don't know about. You just know the geography. The Rangers already surveyed it in Wasteland 1, after all.

Placing lore ahead of gameplay is not a clever move... besides, fog of war doesn't mean only that you don't know the terrain or geography of an area, but that you're not aware of all the enemy forces, actions and changes to that environment.

I agree that a black fog of war like the one in the image would make no sense since they charted the wasteland, but it should at least have a light layer, like in Fallout 1 & 2, revealing the terrain but not the locations unless they had directions to it. Fog of war gives a nice sense of mystery and helps track where you've been already, it motivates exploration.

Also, the 3D view of the wasteland is a bit meh; there's no sense in having only parts of a highway in the middle of nowhere, and all those random terrain formations.... they should map it as a real city/state and then "post-apoc" it, not just lay down stuff that looks cool and fits their needs.

 

[Infinitron]

I agree that a black fog of war like the one in the image would make no sense since they charted they wasteland, but it should at least have a light layer, like in Fallout 1 & 2, revealing the terrain but not the locations unless they had directions to it. Fog of war gives a nice sense of mystery and helps track where you've been already, it motivates exploration.

The update says:

Primary exploration occurs in a 3D map that shows your immediate surrounding environment with representative scale and geographic features of the region. Significant locations, settlements and sites reveal themselves as you scout around. The 3D exploration is in the same style and pattern as Mount & Blade and Neverwinter Nights 2: Storm of Zehir.

While in the 3D world map, you can press “M” to bring up a 2D map displaying the entire region. This 2D regional map automatically updates with locations you have either explored yourself, or have been informed of by another Wastelander. The regional map has been handed down from ranger to ranger over the previous century, each adding their own details to what was originally an old-fashioned roadmap from the 1990s.

As you discover radiation zones they are marked on your map In Arizona, locations generally match their canonical layout from Wasteland 1. The map is filled with key locations you will discover through regular playthroughs; but significant sections of the map are side exploration opportunities. There is plenty of space to wander around, discover hidden resources based on your character’s build, fight random encounters and discover minor sites that may be explored in normal game mode.

Exploration

As you explore the region, you’ll discover three primary things on the world map: settlements, sites and resources. Settlements are major locations, such as Ranger Citadel and the Ag Center. Sites are minor locations such as an abandoned mine or a highway roadblock. Resources include oases where you can refill your canteen and hidden caches where previous Wastelanders have stored ammunition, weapons or other goods.

I guess you really like the "map painting" thing from the IE games? Okay.

 

[Brother None]

Fog of war gives a nice sense of mystery and helps track where you've been already, it motivates exploration.

Did you seriously wander the entire world map just to remove all the black blocks? That seems like...not fun.

The basic 2D map really just tells you the terrain. You still have to explore and learn locations, not just major ones but smaller encounters, caches and "Cops maps" (see last update for mention of those). So, like Arcanum. The way that's displayed can vary, but black fog of war doesn't really work for us. There's still different options open for us though.

Also, the 3D view of the wasteland is a bit meh; there's no sense in having only parts of a highway in the middle of nowhere, and all those random terrain formations.... they should map it as a real city/state and then "post-apoc" it, not just lay down stuff that looks cool and fits their needs.

...what? City? This is in Arizona. Assets that noticeably "pop out" tend to be important locations, y'know, like Mount & Blade. It's an abstract, not a realistic representation.

 

[FeelTheRads]

just to remove all the black blocks? That seems like...not fun.

Careful there, you're heading into Sawyer territory. You wouldn't want a Roguey on your back now, would you?

 

[felipepepe]

Did you seriously wander the entire world map just to remove all the black blocks? That seems like...not fun.

That depends on you guys actually. If you put interesting stuff in hard to get places, exploration would become fun. Or else, it will be removing all the black block... not fun.

Exactly. Exploring the map is only boring if the map itself is boring.

Assets that noticeably "pop out" tend to be important locations, y'know, like Mount & Blade. It's an abstract, not a realistic representation.

Not a approach that I'm found of, but I'll respect. On the other hand, Mount & Blade would certainly benefit from visible roads on the map, for example...

 

[Brother None]

Did you seriously wander the entire world map just to remove all the black blocks? That seems like...not fun.

That depends on you guys actually. If you put interesting stuff in hard to get places, exploration would become fun. Or else, it will be removing all the black block... not fun.

Well, I was talking about Fallout 1, which really didn't offer far-away set locations you wouldn't discover otherwise. Arcanum did more of that, IIRC. And yes, Wasteland 2's world map has minor locations (Cops maps), random encounters, caches to find. There's reasons to explore.

 

[Lhynn]

Placing lore ahead of gameplay is not a clever move...

I heartily disagree, gameplay should never come before lore. If your game makes sense and its world is consistent with itself the game will feel better to anyone but the dumbest motherfuckers out there. What is a clever move is to find ways for gameplay not to suffer because of the lore of the place/world/etc, rather have one reinforce the other and you will get a lot more than the sum of its parts.

 

[Saduj]

The thing is, we do not need arbitrarily large number of skills. We just need large Enough number of skills so that the party characters can have sufficiently distinct game play. Adding skills just for the sake for adding skill may not really improve the experience. In fact it would make creating content in the game that uses all these skills harder. Look at NWN2 for example. In the OC most of the skills have pitifully little use within the campaign. SoZ on the other hand creates content or implements mechanics for them and makes them feel useful.

I would think that the current number of skills are already around the same number as NWN2 OC. Managing them itself would be a nice resource allocation exercise even without engaging in the tedious 'collect the pixels to block the inventory' kind of exercise.

For example, the entire water carrying can be abstracted with survival skill checks of the party member in a given area. If the party survival skills are less than the target number, the game gives you a penalty.

This reinforces the quintessential character skill driven nature of such a game liek W2.

Anything can be abstracted with skill checks. Where we seem to disagree is whether or not water management could add to the overall quality of the game.

 

[hiver]

Dont forget that there are secret locations that become visible only if you have high enough Outdoorsman skill. So its not like you just "walk" around and things pop up.

- also, in Fallouts you could just go in random direction on the map and discover a location or settlement even if nobody told you about it.
While only some were invisible until someone pointed you to them.

 

[felipepepe]

I heartily disagree, gameplay should never come before lore. If your game makes sense and its world is consistent with itself the game will feel better to anyone but the dumbest motherfuckers out there. What is a clever move is to find ways for gameplay not to suffer because of the lore of the place/world/etc, rather have one reinforce the other and you will get a lot more than the sum of its parts.

Lore is but a part of world consistency bro, and unless you're talking about stuff that's very characteristic or vital to the world, it's the easiest thing to adapt. You could simply add a line like "Oh, don't trust the map blindly, a lot might have changed since we last surveyed the area" and presto, everyone's happy.

 

[toro]

Fog of war gives a nice sense of mystery and helps track where you've been already, it motivates exploration.

Did you seriously wander the entire world map just to remove all the black blocks? That seems like...not fun.

But is good for the peace of mind. I always check every corner possible, it's not always fun but in the end it helps saving time. I don't have time for replays therefore if I have to go though all the shit once at least I intend to do it properly. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Lhynn]

Lore is but a part of world consistency bro, and unless you're talking about stuff that's very characteristic or vital to the world, it's the easiest thing to adapt. You could simply add a line like "Oh, don't trust the map blindly, a lot might have changed since we last surveyed the area" and presto, everyone's happy.

You say it like there wasnt a stupid amount of handwaving for stuff in games today, see FO3.

 

[felipepepe]

Using F3 as example is retarded, one could use it to "prove" that all RPGs suck.

 

[Lhynn]

Using F3 as example is retarded, one could use it to "prove" that all RPGs suck.

I find that extremes are good examples, they work to illustrate a point and help you translate the example to your own experience. Prof of that is that you did, and probably thought of a lot of examples equally suitable.

 

[Brother None]

Using F3 as example is retarded, one could use it to "prove" that all RPGs suck.

This is RPGCodex. All RPGs do suck.

 

[felipepepe]

Using F3 as example is retarded, one could use it to "prove" that all RPGs suck.

This is RPGCodex. All RPGs do suck.

All RPGs suck, but some RPGs suck more than others.

 

[Infinitron]

RPS faps to Wasteland 2 update: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/10/21/the-kindness-of-rangers-wasteland-2/

Tell me, Brother None, MLMarkland, will the random encounters just "pop up" a-la Final Fantasy, or will the enemies appear in the world and chase you like in SoZ?

 

[Lhynn]

RPS faps to Wasteland 2 update: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/10/21/the-kindness-of-rangers-wasteland-2/

Tell me, Brother None, MLMarkland, will the random encounters just "pop up" a-la Final Fantasy, or will the enemies appear in the world and chase you like in SoZ?

Theyll be fallout-like with a window telling you you encountered some rats fighting off some super-mutants and if youd like to engage (if your survival is high enough).

 

[hiver]

Using F3 as example is retarded, one could use it to "prove" that all RPGs suck.

This is RPGCodex. All RPGs do suck.

All RPGs suck, but some RPGs suck more than others.

I would add that it all also depends on what exactly they are sucking.

 

[MLMarkland]

RPS faps to Wasteland 2 update: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/10/21/the-kindness-of-rangers-wasteland-2/

Tell me, Brother None, MLMarkland, will the random encounters just "pop up" a-la Final Fantasy, or will the enemies appear in the world and chase you like in SoZ?

Pretty much as Lhynn said.

Definitely interested in hearing folks' thoughts on random encounter mix, frequency, etc.

 

[Captain Shrek]

RPS faps to Wasteland 2 update: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/10/21/the-kindness-of-rangers-wasteland-2/

Tell me, Brother None, MLMarkland, will the random encounters just "pop up" a-la Final Fantasy, or will the enemies appear in the world and chase you like in SoZ?

Pretty much as Lhynn said.

Definitely interested in hearing folks' thoughts on random encounter mix, frequency, etc.

Is there a possibility that the random encounter can be seen roaming on the map? Or it trying to chase us or run away from us?

 

[Kem0sabe]

How will special random encounters be handled? A short description of the unusual situation, the inability to avoid it (Fallout Tactic for example) or will the player simply have to engage the random encounter to see if its just a combat encounter or a "special" encounter.

 

[Roguey]

Definitely interested in hearing folks' thoughts on random encounter mix, frequency, etc.

Obviously too frequent is a bad thing. Fallout 2 with default fan patch settings? Too much. Without on modern machines? Too little.