Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[imweasel]

If the cost for moving into any square is the same then it's shit compared to hexes in tactical movement. If you make the workaround of diagonal movement costing more it's shit compared to hexes in ease of use.

Verdict: square grid is shit.

A hex grid is more accurate, true, but it isn't perfect either.

It's irrelevant if it's perfect or not, use of a movement grid is already a compromise.

We're discussing which solution is better.

Yes. Both aren't perfect, but they do have their postive and negative effects. And it's up to Inxile what they think is better for their game IMO.

 

[Excidium]

The only negative effect of hex grid so far is visual bullshit.

 

[Gord]

Well, obviously we can't say for sure until we have seen the final implementation in the game, however, imweasel's idea is not totally without merit.
The question is how the grid is implemented.
E.g. movement could be free and distance-based, with the circle indicating the max range you can go (per fixed AP cost). If the center of a square (or hex-grid) is within the circle, you can move there. If it's outside, you can't. The grid itself will determine starting position and end position. Quite simple. The actual movement can then take place along the squares or diagonally, or even freely, as long as the grid you move over is not occupied. Attacks could work similarly.

 

[tuluse]

Why would you do a grid at all with free movement? Just have it work like Warhammer.

 

[Darkzone]

@Inifinitron,
"celebrities" referes to a certain reputation, famous or infamous?

HiddenX,
nice one, but there are even more elegant solutions, and theoretically you don't need to go through the center of the hex, you can approximate to the points with movement function (polynomes of 2, 3, 4 degree or B-splines). This would really look smooth and the best thing is you could also derivative the movement speed from this functions. This way the "running around the corner" would look more realistic.

@inweasel
you cannot simply cut edges off, there are many problems concering such behavior. Sorry that i answered not in the required manner, but at training today i got a black eye and have lost my calmness for today. Hexes are have also their problems, like the distortion from the circular segment hight, but still they are better under most conditions. In an isometric prespective, where you have 120° the hexes for 60° are extrem good.

 

[Lady_Error]

I have lost my calmness. It would not happend if it was not about math

That's funny.

I think hexes and grids are both fine...

 

[Ninjerk]

@Inifinitron,
"celebrities" referes to a certain reputation, famous or infamous?

HiddenX,
nice one, but there are even more elegant solutions, and theoretically you don't need to go through the center of the hex, you can approximate to the points with movement function (polynomes of 2, 3, 4 degree or B-splines). This would really look smooth and the best thing is you could also derivative the movement speed from this functions. This way the "running around the corner" would look more realistic.

@inweasel
you cannot simply cut edges off, there are many problems concering such behavior. Sorry that i answered not in the required manner, but at training today i got a black eye and have lost my calmness for today. Hexes are have also their problems, like the distortion from the circular segment hight, but still they are better under most conditions. In an isometric prespective, where you have 120° the hexes for 60° are extrem good.

I think everyone's a little disappointed that you didn't respond more harshly.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

I am no mathemagician technomancer... but hexes seem superior to squares (except amount of coding for its implementation). So what excuse can inXile offer besides funding shortage?

 

[Darkzone]

I think everyone's a little disappointed that you didn't respond more harshly.

Ahhh.. phhuu It is difficult to live up to some expectations. But to my excuse, i had on the one side of the libra, bring my daughter to bed, discust with a friend what should we have on this weekend for barbecue, sex with my wife and the other side there was to bash at a swiss chees system. What should a man choose?
If inweasel knew something about planar movement, obstacle avoidance, path planning algorithms like A* and its heuristic cost, he would never propose this cheese. This is not his profession, so he may be forgiven in his naivety.

I am no mathemagician technomancer... but hexes seem superior to squares (except amount of coding for its implementation). So what excuse can inXile offer besides funding shortage?

Hmm there may be some reasons, but "except amount of coding for its implementation" is not correct, because there are the plug-ins or assets in Unity, that solve this problems. Funkding shortage is also no reason, i think 45$ pro computer is in the cashbox.
I will wait for the explanation before i evaluate it's validity.

 

[Excidium]

I am no mathemagician technomancer... but hexes seem superior to squares (except amount of coding for its implementation). So what excuse can inXile offer besides funding shortage?

Graphical stuff, like aligning objects and shit is easier with squares. Remember they already had hex grid implemented.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Graphical stuff, like aligning objects and shit is easier with squares. Remember they already had hex grid implemented.

Lol yeah. i should be glad WL2 isn't FO3.

 

[imweasel]

you cannot simply cut edges off, there are many problems concering such behavior.

I didn't cut anything off. If you are talking about the circle, it represents free (ideal) movement in a straight line along the plane where the grid resides. To be clear, this means movement in a straight line, in an arbitrary direction, from the center of the grid (where the cross is), to one of the infinite points on the circle. This ellipse was chosen by me merely for demonstrational purposes, i.e. it can be larger or smaller.

But okay, this is problematic. So, what are these problems that you keep on bitching about then?

Sorry that i answered not in the required manner, but at training today i got a black eye and have lost my calmness for today. Hexes are have also their problems, like the distortion from the circular segment hight, but still they are better under most conditions. In an isometric prespective, where you have 120° the hexes for 60° are extrem good.

Great. Except that Wasteland 2 does not have a static camera.

If inweasel knew something about planar movement, obstacle avoidance, path planning algorithms like A* and its heuristic cost, he would never propose this cheese. This is not his profession, so he may be forgiven in his naivety.

So what is your profession then? Professional CRPG grid designer?

Please, tell me why I know absolutely nothing about planar movement because I think square grids are absolutely fine.

 

[Darkzone]

Good imweasel, then let us begin at the basics.
Do you know what obstacle avoidence is? Do you know what greedy algorithems are and do? Do you know what are heuristic cost are? Do you know the working of A* ? Or any other path planning algorithm?

If you can answer this questions honestly with yes, and show that you understand the problems concerning this things, then we have a basis for a talk about it.
And believe me i know that you cannot answer correctly, at least 4 of the 5 questions, looking only at your example.

Your current display works only and not even good for a small radius from the center, and without obstacle.

So what is your profession then? Professional CRPG grid designer?

To my specialisation or profession: Intelligent Systems. this includes (Graphic, Robotics and AI). Roboics inclusive Roboter Navigation. Roboter Navigation includes Mapping, Localisation and Path Planning.
So in a certain form or way you may call me a grid designer. At least i have made many grids for this tasks.

But if you insist on been beaten, i have already begun to write it down. But to make it short and spare me fruitless work: Look at A* how does it work, what does it mean for A* if the transition costs for diagonal movement is the same like that of the transitions at the sides and on the problem concerning obstacles with all transition cost being the same. And always remember that in your system a vector as a radius makes not a circle but a square (the max movement border can be negected for understanding of the problem).

 

[shihonage]

There are a number of games using squares just fine, and this square vs. hex war is not a predictor of the game's overall quality or even the quality of its combat system. This exchange has become a way for some people to exercise their trigonometry skills while the rest wait for the subject to switch to something interesting.

 

[imweasel]

So obstacles can't be avoided if you use a square grid? You heard it hear folks, every game ever made with a square grid is unplayble according to Darkzone.

To my specialisation or profession: Intelligent Systems. this includes (Graphic, Robotics and AI). Roboics inclusive Roboter Navigation. Roboter Navigation includes Mapping, Localisation and Path Planning.
So in a certain form or way you may call me a grid designer. At least i have made many grids for this tasks.

So you can't get your robots to move from one tile to another if they aren't hex or what? Not even if you rasterize the transveral plane using a smaller grid?

Don't ever apply for a job at NASA. Or anywhere else for that matter.

There are a number of games using squares just fine, and this square vs. hex war is not a predictor of the game's overall quality or even the quality of its combat system. This exchange has become a way for some people to exercise their trigonometry skills while the rest wait for the subject to switch to something interesting.

This.

Been saying that all along though.

 

[HiddenX]

I find internal game mechanics, like pathfinding, very interesting:

 

[imweasel]

And always remember that in your system a vector as a radius makes not a circle but a square (the max movement border can be negected for understanding of the problem).

Jesus. How often do I have to repeat myself?

For the umpteenth time, the circle represents ideal movement, i.e. transversal plane movement similar to that in the real world (or do you walk on a fucking grid unlike the rest of us?). It is used to help calculate the AP. I chose the size of the grid and the ellipse (remember now, the ellipse only represents ideal movement) simply for demonstrational purposes.

The smaller the grid, the more accurrate movement is too. Google rasterizing.

 

[FeelTheRads]

For the umpteenth time, the circle represents ideal movement, i.e. transversal plane movement similar to that in the real world (or do you walk on a fucking grid unlike the rest of us?).

The fuck? What the fuck does this have to do with a game based on AP? A game with AP and grid based movement doesn't have anything to do with how real people move. Who the fuck cares. Your example is retarded, just give it up already.

 

[imweasel]

For the umpteenth time, the circle represents ideal movement, i.e. transversal plane movement similar to that in the real world (or do you walk on a fucking grid unlike the rest of us?).

The fuck? What the fuck does this have to do with a game based on AP? A game with AP and grid based movement doesn't have anything to do with how real people move. Who the fuck cares. Your example is retarded, just give it up already.

FFS, you god damn retard.

Did you even realize that half of the bitching is about the fact that diagonal movement on square grid is a longer distance (by a factor of about 1.41) than horizontal or vertical movement? So yes, it actually does have something to do with how people move in the real fucking world, people don't move a longer distance by simply "walking diagonally". FYI games usually simulate the real world as close as feasible in case you haven't figured this out yet.

(And for the record, it isn't perfect with a hex grid either.)

 

[tuluse]

FFS, you god damn retard.

Did you even realize that half of the bitching is about the fact that diagonal movement on square grid is a longer distance (by a factor of about 1.41) than horizontal or vertical movement? So yes, it actually does have something to do with how people move in the real fucking world, i.e the distance they move. Which is obvious, because these games simulate the real world as close as feasible.

And for the record, it isn't perfect with a hex grid either.

Have you ever played a game where a circle was overlayed on a square grid and you could move to any square in the circle?

No, you haven't because it's retarded.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

imweasel is there going to be some point where you explain how your "real" movement works with AP's?

 

[FeelTheRads]

FYI games usually simulate the real world as close as feasible

No, they don't, especially not AP and grid-based games. Which is what W2 is. Again, completely retarded example and with nothing whatsoever to do with this game, even if anyone here gave a fucking shit about "real" movement.
And you realize that because it's grid based, in your example you wouldn't move exactly the same distance in all direction, right? In diagonal you will stop at the next square. Even if the circle gets past that square.

So much for circle. Retard.

 

[imweasel]

FFS, you god damn retard.

Did you even realize that half of the bitching is about the fact that diagonal movement on square grid is a longer distance (by a factor of about 1.41) than horizontal or vertical movement? So yes, it actually does have something to do with how people move in the real fucking world, i.e the distance they move. Which is obvious, because these games simulate the real world as close as feasible.

And for the record, it isn't perfect with a hex grid either.

Have you ever played a game where a circle was overlayed on a square grid and you could move to any square in the circle?

No, you haven't because it's retarded.

Have I ever said that the circle should show up in the game? What makes you think that? It doesn't and shouldn't show up in the game.

It is just a distance (dependant on the size of the tiles in the grid), and ideally the total distance moved in any direction on the grid should be close to this. Otherwise movement might look awkward. In my example it was for 2 moves (AP).

That is all it means, nothing else. It doesn't have to be perfect, but the grid should represent movement in the real world as close as possible/feasible. It looks strange if you can move a lot farther by just walking diagonally.

imweasel is there going to be some point where you explain how your "real" movement works with AP's?

See above.

FYI games usually simulate the real world as close as feasible

No, they don't, especially not AP and grid-based games. Which is what W2 is. Again, completely retarded example and with nothing whatsoever to do with this game, even if anyone here gave a fucking shit about "real" movement.
And you realize that because it's grid based, in your example you wouldn't move exactly the same distance in all direction, right? In diagonal you will stop at the next square. Even if the circle gets past that square.

So much for circle. Retard.

You have 10 AP. So being able to movie 10 meters horizontally/vertically and 15 Meters diagonally with this AP on a square grid looks perfectly fine.

For a retard.

 

[FeelTheRads]

You have 10 AP. So being able to movie 10 meters horizontally/vertically and 15 Meters diagonally with this AP on a square grid looks perfectly fine.

For a retard.

What now?

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

FFS, you god damn retard.

Did you even realize that half of the bitching is about the fact that diagonal movement on square grid is a longer distance (by a factor of about 1.41) than horizontal or vertical movement? So yes, it actually does have something to do with how people move in the real fucking world, i.e the distance they move. Which is obvious, because these games simulate the real world as close as feasible.

And for the record, it isn't perfect with a hex grid either.

Have you ever played a game where a circle was overlayed on a square grid and you could move to any square in the circle?

No, you haven't because it's retarded.

I seem to recall some jRPG on the PS2 had a circular movement range (Dragon Quarter maybe?) but it didn't have grids. I mean if circle radius free movement is implemented...why fucking bother with grids at all?