Game News Wasteland 2 Interview and Official Blog Update

[St. Toxic]

yeah, like...its his theory... nyah, nyah, nyah... because he wrote it on a blog... nyah, nyah, nyah...

Try to successfully complete–oh, say, Fallout 2–by role-playing a scientist. Go ahead. Roll up a new character and put all of her points into the Science skill. No save scumming, now. Or how about a scientist-doctor? Maybe one who loves hiking. Stick all your points in Science, Doctor and Outdoorsman. See how well that works out.

So fail and try for something a bit more adapted to the game's hostile environment. Beat the game, and then try the hiking scientist again now that you know some of the pitfalls and setbacks to your build. I mean, seriously, why should the dev be tasked with the impossible mission of keeping the player from screwing himself over by bad decisions? It's not impossible to beat F2 as a hiking scientist/doctor, but it's naturally a lot harder than as a charismatic gunslinger, and it's harder in a way that you'll notice instantly. If you beat 90% of the game using SCIENCE! and got buttfucked by Horrigan on your way out, I could understand the complaint.

Honestly, I'm not sure I like his proposed "solution" to the "problem", forcing common sense on the player by dividing up skills into "useful" and "flavor" and creating two pools of points from which to level up. For one thing, it means you're forced to waste points on skills which you may have no interest in or simply don't fit your character build. Secondly, you're forced to create characters that are realistically viable, i.e you won't have characters that rely on followers or cheesing the game to win. Thirdly, it undermines the importance of a well-planned and thought out skill distribution, in the same way skill trees or classes do by limiting the nonsense you're able to accomplish as you level up.

I like the idea of people failing because they unwittingly throw everything they got at a less viable skill, all it does is demonstrate, something that should be obvious, that the world into which the player is thrown simply isn't fit for a pure scientist or a toaster repairman, unless, of course, he makes exactly the right decisions. All this amounts to is a safety-net for dumdums at the cost of everybody else's freedom -- i.e the usual decline doctrine.

 

[Apexeon]

You must have choice not balance if your going for gameplay depth (choice allows for many paths).
Balance is one button and a quick time event.

 

[St. Toxic]

And even then, think of moba games or other class/type based competitive multiplayer games. They're balanced, or strive to be, but is every class/character a viable recommendation for a new player? Hell no, it takes a while to familiarize yourself with what's going on before you can fully utilize the unique features of a class/character. Get to know the game, then try your hand at toaster repairman.

 

[hiver]

primary. and complimentary skills.
thats the ticket.
clear presentation - that actually makes sense.
broadens the possibilities.
focuses most game design on primary skills - i.e. paths through the game. means - main core gameplay good.
leaves enough breathing air to add and expand the content with complimentary skills.

- nobody bitches the mean game tricked them.

/

choice-balance-bolocks.
neither choice nor balance can give depth by themselves. not even combined.
depth is in provided gameplay, not just having an option with nothing to do with it.

 

[St. Toxic]

primary. and complimentary skills.
thats the ticket.

But two separate pools of skillpoints? Come on. And the way he dismisses pre-made builds with "Well why not just have a class system lols?!", what a fucking moron. You wouldn't even need to use them, y'know, just take a look at what the pre-mades have set up, know that they sync up well with the gameplay, and work out your own variations on the theme.

broadens the possibilities.

You can't seriously mean that. If it's a split skill-pool, then no, it doesn't broaden the possibilities. If it's just a graphical thing, like tool-tips popping up saying "Hay, did you know Gungfighting is a big part of surviving the post-apocalypse?" then, no, it broadens the possibilities of fuck all.

 

[almondblight]

Honestly, I'm not sure I like his proposed "solution" to the "problem", forcing common sense on the player by dividing up skills into "useful" and "flavor" and creating two pools of points from which to level up. For one thing, it means you're forced to waste points on skills which you may have no interest in or simply don't fit your character build. Secondly, you're forced to create characters that are realistically viable, i.e you won't have characters that rely on followers or cheesing the game to win. Thirdly, it undermines the importance of a well-planned and thought out skill distribution, in the same way skill trees or classes do by limiting the nonsense you're able to accomplish as you level up.

If you want to challenge yourself by not spending character points you (presumably) still can. As for undermining the importance of planning skill distribution, I doubt many gamers were agonizing about whether to put points into energy weapons or gambling. The point is that these skills are less useful.

I like the idea of people failing because they unwittingly throw everything they got at a less viable skill, all it does is demonstrate, something that should be obvious, that the world into which the player is thrown simply isn't fit for a pure scientist or a toaster repairman, unless, of course, he makes exactly the right decisions. All this amounts to is a safety-net for dumdums at the cost of everybody else's freedom -- i.e the usual decline doctrine.

There is an implicit suggestion of usefulness just by including a skill. I mean, Fallout could have made energy weapons useless, because hey, what's the likelihood that a civilization living in shacks is going to be using highly advanced tech? They could have made unarmed useless, because what, you're going to go after a guy who has a gun with your fists? Including a skill called computers, letting you put between 1 to 50 points in it, and then having one single computer skill check that anyone over 10 can pass is just bad design. Likewise, some skills seems like they'd be useful in a PA setting (medical? first aid?), but turn out to be useless.

 

[St. Toxic]

If you want to challenge yourself by not spending character points you (presumably) still can. As for undermining the importance of planning skill distribution, I doubt many gamers were agonizing about whether to put points into energy weapons or gambling. The point is that these skills are less useful.

Right, so nobody ever worried about picking the less useful skill over a more useful one, but the point is that there were less useful skills which is, err, worth worrying about. I see what you're saying. Well, worry no more!

Back in the day, it was apparently easy to determine which skills were useful and which weren't, but there were many that weren't and this caused a problem. The problem was, how to determine which were useful and which weren't. Fortunately, by borrowing from the great ideas of socialism, we've managed to solve the problem.

There you go! Now everyone will be equally viable and useless. Enjoy your stress-free gaming experience.

There is an implicit suggestion of usefulness just by including a skill. I mean, Fallout could have made energy weapons useless, because hey, what's the likelihood that a civilization living in shacks is going to be using highly advanced tech? They could have made unarmed useless, because what, you're going to go after a guy who has a gun with your fists? Including a skill called computers, letting you put between 1 to 50 points in it, and then having one single computer skill check that anyone over 10 can pass is just bad design. Likewise, some skills seems like they'd be useful in a PA setting (medical? first aid?), but turn out to be useless.

Not if you deviate from the standard path and end up in tons of encounters before you reach a trading hub that has stims, you dumbfuck. I understand how skills that are only used in scripted skillchecks once p. game seem relatively useless, but it's still a needed skillcheck to get at the goodies or, well, you don't get em'. Didn't like the reward for 10 levels worth of skillpoints invested in gambling? Tough shit, idiot. For the rest, it's up to you to use them even if they are underpowered compared to other skills. The other option is not to pick them.

 

[almondblight]

Right, so nobody ever worried about picking the less useful skill over a more useful one, but the point is that there were less useful skills which is, err, worth worrying about. I see what you're saying. Well, worry no more!

Back in the day, it was apparently easy to determine which skills were useful and which weren't, but there were many that weren't and this caused a problem. The problem was, how to determine which were useful and which weren't. Fortunately, by borrowing from the great ideas of socialism, we've managed to solve the problem.

There you go! Now everyone will be equally viable and useless. Enjoy your stress-free gaming experience.

Do you have trouble reading? The problem isn't that choosing skills in Fallout is "stressful." The problem is that it's the exact opposite. You don't have to think about what to put points into. Hell, I usually had dozens of unspent skill points saved up because there was no point spending them anywhere. A game with skill balancing actually requires you to think about where to spend your skills; unbalanced games don't.

Not if you deviate from the standard path and end up in tons of encounters before you reach a trading hub that has stims, you dumbfuck.

You can claim that I'm a "dumbfuck" for thinking that medic and first aid is useless. Look up any thread here, or anywhere really, and you'll see that it's the consensus (because, well, they were useless). But maybe everyone but you is a "dumbfuck."

I understand how skills that are only used in scripted skillchecks once p. game seem relatively useless, but it's still a needed skillcheck to get at the goodies or, well, you don't get em'.

Except when the skill check is around 75% and the game gives you enough books to get there.

Didn't like the reward for 10 levels worth of skillpoints invested in gambling? Tough shit, idiot.

So what, it's a flavor skill that only idiots would invest in but it'd ruin the game by having it in a separate flavor category?

For the rest, it's up to you to use them even if they are underpowered compared to other skills. The other option is not to pick them.

Or use just enough to get over the low threshold we need for the few skill checks - something that the designers are only happy to help us out with by throwing around books when we actually need it.

 

[Brayko]

I saw that Brian Fargo is following Mitt Romney on his Twitter page. I hope it's just for LOL purposes or else..

 

[St. Toxic]

Do you have trouble reading? The problem isn't that choosing skills in Fallout is "stressful." The problem is that it's the exact opposite.

Ok, so the problem is that it's too easy to figure out which skills are useful? My friend, if you want us to solve this problem we need to introduce more useless skills and mix them into the common pool + make them sound more useful than they are.

You don't have to think about what to put points into. Hell, I usually had dozens of unspent skill points saved up because there was no point spending them anywhere.

At the start of the game? I'm impressed. After you've compulsively done all the quests when you should have been getting your beauty sleep? I'm appalled.

A game with skill balancing actually requires you to think about where to spend your skills; unbalanced games don't.

That's because a balanced game doesn't have gameplay mechanics that are pure flavor. Even so, unless we're talking about active skills only, which are game-changers by nature, you'll still mainly be stacking skill-points on the single or relative few skills into which you've already invested -- but that's well into the game. At the start of the game, it's the same whether or not the game is balanced: previous gameplay experience and desired character development is what dictates where the skill-points go. Even if it is properly balanced, one may have a negative experience with a skill due to play-style.

You can claim that I'm a "dumbfuck" for thinking that medic and first aid is useless. Look up any thread here, or anywhere really, and you'll see that it's the consensus (because, well, they were useless). But maybe everyone but you is a "dumbfuck."

I looked up your posts on having to redo Shady Sands and Vault 13 over and over in order to progress in Fallout. If that's where consensus is formed, I tip my hat. VD never wrestled rad-scorpions and thinks antidotes are worthless, you think Fallout is linear and never used first aid, and yet we all played the same game and still find things to disagree on. That's just beautiful, man.

Except when the skill check is around 75% and the game gives you enough books to get there.

I just think you're compulsive. A friend of mine beat Fallout several times and never even knew about the Master. I could ask him if he got a lot of skill-points from books.

So what, it's a flavor skill that only idiots would invest in but it'd ruin the game by having it in a separate flavor category?

Well, it wouldn't ruin it more than a tool-tip saying "Hay, grab points in GUNZ bro.", but split pools? Come on.

Or use just enough to get over the low threshold we need for the few skill checks - something that the designers are only happy to help us out with by throwing around books when we actually need it.

Don't confuse world-building with skill-system though.

 

[hoverdog]

I saw that Brian Fargo is following Mitt Romney on his Twitter page.

FretRider and Commissar Draco brofist this.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

FretRider and Commissar Draco can't handle the truth.

 

[almondblight]

Ok, so the problem is that it's too easy to figure out which skills are useful?

No, the problem is that once you understand the system, the choice is between a useful skill and a useless skill. You're solution to that is to make the system more difficult to understand?

After you've compulsively done all the quests...

Oh damn, so that's what I was doing wrong. I was playing the game when I should have been skipping through it.

I looked up your posts on having to redo Shady Sands and Vault 13 over and over in order to progress in Fallout.

If you want to Iron Man without skipping through the game. I already know where everything is, so my options are going to Shady Sands like everyone else including Tim Cain "sheeple", skipping ahead using the knowledge I already know, or trying to pretend I don't know where I'm going when I explore even though I do (I guess by closing my eyes and randomly clicking on the map?).

you think Fallout is linear and never used first aid

Yeah. Maybe it's not linear, and the path I took when I first played it just happened to be the path the games creator recommended and just happened to be the path taken by 90% of the people that first played it. It happens to follow where the game tells you to go. Damn coincidences man! First aid and medic are probably really useful. The creator of the games didn't have them as recommended skills to take, and people here didn't find them useful, but hey, that's us sheeple man.

I just think you're compulsive.

"Need to repair that power armor? Here's a book on repair." Yeah, it sure takes a compulsive person to use the books that are given to you. I guess I was compulsive when I used power armor? Or, eh...played the game?

A friend of mine beat Fallout several times and never even knew about the Master.

You think that's something? I have a friend that played several times and never even knew about the water chip!

Well, it wouldn't ruin it more than a tool-tip saying "Hay, grab points in GUNZ bro.", but split pools? Come on.

So what the hell is the point of the skill to you? To troll new players?

Don't confuse world-building with skill-system though.

They're inseparable. If there was no one to talk to in the game, speech would be useless. If half of the game took place in casinos and had gambling checks, gambling would be useful.

 

[St. Toxic]

No, the problem is that once you understand the system, the choice is between a useful skill and a useless skill. You're solution to that is to make the system more difficult to understand?

No, my solution is that there is no problem. If you understand the system and know what you want to do with it, then anything that the system incorporates that is irrelevant to your goals is, well, irrelevant.

In the article I was originally addressing, however, that was the core complaint. What you're complaining about, I've yet to figure out.

Oh damn, so that's what I was doing wrong. I was playing the game when I should have been skipping through it.

You know that there's actually content that didn't make it into the game? It's in the dat files, you can unpack them and check it out for the "complete" experience.

If you want to Iron Man without skipping through the game. I already know where everything is, so my options are going to Shady Sands like everyone else including Tim Cain "sheeple", skipping ahead using the knowledge I already know, or trying to pretend I don't know where I'm going when I explore even though I do (I guess by closing my eyes and randomly clicking on the map?).

So, you're complaining that you've already played the game? Tough shit, moran. Guess you'll have to do every quest in the same order over and over forever. *shrug*

Yeah. Maybe it's not linear, and the path I took when I first played it just happened to be the path the games creator recommended and just happened to be the path taken by 90% of the people that first played it. It happens to follow where the game tells you to go. Damn coincidences man! First aid and medic are probably really useful. The creator of the games didn't have them as recommended skills to take, and people here didn't find them useful, but hey, that's us sheeple man.

You're right, it's not just linear, it's on rails -- all the way down to character creation. Well, as you say, for sheeple.

"Need to repair that power armor? Here's a book on repair." Yeah, it sure takes a compulsive person to use the books that are given to you. I guess I was compulsive when I used power armor? Or, eh...played the game?

Wait, you could repair power-armor?

You think that's something? I have a friend that played several times and never even knew about the water chip!

So what the hell is the point of the skill to you? To troll new players?

As a representation of character ability? I mean, shit, juggling. You could have juggling as a skill, with 2 specific in game uses where you juggle your way out of a problem and no more, and that would be valid. VD would probably say "No. If you can't beat the game by juggling, it shouldn't be in there.", I think that's lazy. As you say, it's obviously not going to be a bread-and-butter skill, so you'd have to be pretty thick to invest heavily into it, but I say it still creates a very specific scenario available only to the select few that figured juggling was a worthwhile investment adding another unique possibility into the game.

They're inseparable. If there was no one to talk to in the game, speech would be useless. If half of the game took place in casinos and had gambling checks, gambling would be useful.

Right, but if a random encounter includes a barrel of Smooth-talking for Dummies books, or if every slot-machine in the game only takes 5% gambling to win the jackpot, that's the game broken on the world-building end of the spectrum, not the skill-system. Your complaint about Fallout having too many books (like 30?) is not addressed by a split-pool system or any restructuring of the skill system.

EDIT: And here's an addendum:

Your reply to,

For the rest (that is, non-scripted check skills such as First Aid), it's up to you to use them even if they are underpowered compared to other skills. The other option is not to pick them.

was,

Or use just enough to get over the low threshold we need for the few skill checks - something that the designers are only happy to help us out with by throwing around books when we actually need it.

off the mark. You don't read up Throwing. If you invest in it, better stock up on rocks, nades, flares and the like, or redo your character.

 

[hiver]

primary. and complimentary skills.
thats the ticket.

But two separate pools of skillpoints? Come on. And the way he dismisses pre-made builds with "Well why not just have a class system lols?!", what a fucking moron. You wouldn't even need to use them, y'know, just take a look at what the pre-mades have set up, know that they sync up well with the gameplay, and work out your own variations on the theme.

Ahh,.. i see whats the problem.
Primary and secondary skills is my idea, not that guy that wrote that blog post.
He "invented" some other name for them, which is totally not nearly as cool as mine.
:conspiracy:

So, i wasnt really considering anything of the specifics that guy added. There are some lulzy moments in there, yeah.

broadens the possibilities.

You can't seriously mean that.

I so can!

If it's a split skill-pool, then no, it doesn't broaden the possibilities.

its not a split pool in my idea.
Which is better.

 

[St. Toxic]

its not a split pool in my idea.
Which is better.

It's certainly better than a split pool, but then a split pool is completely retarded. What are the technical details behind your idea? Are we just talking about categories here? And why not just a tool-tip at the start of character creation that says flat out which skills are more likely to be viable? What's the difference? Should games come with a basic game-guide attachment?

 

[almondblight]

In the article I was originally addressing, however, that was the core complaint. What you're complaining about, I've yet to figure out.

I'm suggesting that perhaps there was a better way to handle skills like gambling and first aid. Dividing it up would hopefully also mean giving the player less skill points for the useful skills.

You know that there's actually content that didn't make it into the game? It's in the dat files, you can unpack them and check it out for the "complete" experience.

Yep. Doing all the quests in the game = unpacking all the content in the dat files. Gotcha.

So, you're complaining that you've already played the game? Tough shit, moran. Guess you'll have to do every quest in the same order over and over forever. *shrug*

I was talking about why I wouldn't want to Iron Man Fallout. I don't have that issue when I replay Fallout normally, even though I've already played the game several times. "You can just meta it dumbass!" doesn't really move me, because I don't want to meta it.

As a representation of character ability? I mean, shit, juggling. You could have juggling as a skill, with 2 specific in game uses where you juggle your way out of a problem and no more, and that would be valid. VD would probably say "No. If you can't beat the game by juggling, it shouldn't be in there.", I think that's lazy. As you say, it's obviously not going to be a bread-and-butter skill, so you'd have to be pretty thick to invest heavily into it, but I say it still creates a very specific scenario available only to the select few that figured juggling was a worthwhile investment adding another unique possibility into the game.

Eh. Sounds somewhat larptastic to me. You want to play a plumber in a PA game - half the skills will be useless, but half the skills of a plumber would be, no? Still, you can get those few skill checks that make you feel like a plumber. Or, whatever. That's one design mentality. The other is, what does this actually do in the game? And what is the actual affect of it on the player? Like I said, better balanced skills lead to more difficult choices. I spent much more time thinking about how I'd spend my skill points in Deus Ex and Geneforge than in Fallout.

Right, but if a random encounter includes a barrel of Smooth-talking for Dummies books, or if every slot-machine in the game only takes 5% gambling to win the jackpot, that's the game broken on the world-building end of the spectrum, not the skill-system. Your complaint about Fallout having too many books (like 30?) is not addressed by a split-pool system or any restructuring of the skill system.

Again, they go together. No skill is useful/useless on its own. Skills can't really exist without world building.

...off the mark. You don't read up Throwing. If you invest in it, better stock up on rocks, nades, flares and the like, or redo your character.

I read:

I understand how skills that are only used in scripted skillchecks once p. game seem relatively useless, but it's still a needed skillcheck to get at the goodies or, well, you don't get em'. Didn't like the reward for 10 levels worth of skillpoints invested in gambling? Tough shit, idiot. For the rest, it's up to you to use them even if they are underpowered compared to other skills. The other option is not to pick them.

...as "For the rest of the scripted skills...".

 

[hiver]

This is clearer. More elegant. Plus it clearly turns attention to the fact that these other complimentary skills have a role. It allows for a greater number of these complimentary skills.
While primaries would be the ones you would expect usually.
In full range.

Generally speaking:
Weapons,
Melee,
Unarmerd combat,
Sneaking and relevant skills,(lockpicking, pickpocketing, etc)
Medicine skill (fused "paramedic" and doctor - first youre basic field paramedic then later, much later, you become a "doctor" and gain specific doctor abilities - only after you pass high skill threshold)
Engineer and relevant skills, (repair, demolition, electrics, etc)
Science (based more on practical appliance of chemistry, biology, and physics - synergy through gameplay, with medicine and engineer skills or any crafting. for example a scientist could distill chemicals that a paramedic could use, concoct explosives an engineer could craft into mines or bombs with timers, help with crafting of armor etc. )
Outdorsman (important for: setting camps, laying traps, finding tracks, foraging for food, sensing ambushes, avoiding or getting and advantage in random encounters, enhances sneaking in natural zones and locations... and i could think of some more too)
Dialogue skills. (with other skills synergy influence on it by giving extra lines, of course)

- should give good enough range for the team -


And complimentary skills, where you throw in all those toaster repairs and other crazy ideas for which you can spatter some uses over the whole game.
You can also add personality traits here, dialogue modifiers... additional sub skills for any of the major primary ones... lots of stuff.

Gives writers something solid to play with too.
I think of these as almost something as perks, really, only more focused and direct.

 

[St. Toxic]

I'm suggesting that perhaps there was a better way to handle skills like gambling and first aid. Dividing it up would hopefully also mean giving the player less skill points for the useful skills.

To quote the article, why not just have classes if you're going to impose a structure on what specific skills each build can consist of?

Yep. Doing all the quests in the game = unpacking all the content in the dat files. Gotcha.

To you it doesn't matter if the game offers 100 different paths or 1, because apparently you end up doing all of them. Might as well catalog all the different assets while you're at it.

I was talking about why I wouldn't want to Iron Man Fallout. I don't have that issue when I replay Fallout normally, even though I've already played the game several times. "You can just meta it dumbass!" doesn't really move me, because I don't want to meta it.

And not going to Shady Sands or V13 every time you play is meta?

Eh. Sounds somewhat larptastic to me. You want to play a plumber in a PA game - half the skills will be useless, but half the skills of a plumber would be, no? Still, you can get those few skill checks that make you feel like a plumber. Or, whatever. That's one design mentality. The other is, what does this actually do in the game? And what is the actual affect of it on the player? Like I said, better balanced skills lead to more difficult choices. I spent much more time thinking about how I'd spend my skill points in Deus Ex and Geneforge than in Fallout.

But you already explained why that is. You don't utilize any of the flavor skills, get every book in the game and solve all the quests, hit the lvl cap (or go past it) and have tons of skill-points to spare at the end of the ordeal. What exactly do you expect? And on top of that, you complain about not having anything to spend the skill-points on, but if they were to put Plumbing in there you'd probably complain it wasn't useful enough to spend the useless points on. I guess congratulations are in order, at least you don't meta. How about you do a run doing only the main quest bits?

Again, they go together. No skill is useful/useless on its own. Skills can't really exist without world building.

No, and without a world you don't have a game either. But crying about there being too many opportunities to raise a skill outside of leveling up still has nothing to do with the skill-system in use.

I read:


...as "For the rest of the scripted skills...".

Fair enough.

Gives writers something solid to play with too.
I think of these as almost something as perks, really, only more focused and direct.

The way I understand it, you're talking about something like skill-trees within skill-subgroups, that get unlocked as you increase the skill? That's a class system. We've got something like it in the new popamole x-com, with 4 specific combat classes and taggable specializations as these classes level up. The difference is, as you can still invest over all the skill-categories (at least, I assume you can?) you're allowing for multi-classing.

I don't know. Re-reading it, I'm not sure if I understood your idea correctly.

 

[almondblight]

To quote the article, why not just have classes if you're going to impose a structure on what specific skills each build can consist of?

You don't see the difference between dividing things into two skill groups and having classes?

Let's pretend for a minute that all of Fallout's skills were great. Wonderful. But we wanted to add more flavor to the characters and the world. We want to be able to make the character humorous, or good at juggling, or a great dance, or a rock climber, etc. But we don't have the time to really give them much impact in the game, they'll only be used once or twice, just to add a couple of interesting things. We could leave them out entirely (since we can't fully develop them), include them with other skills (the more the merrier! skills don't even have to have any in game use), or add them as separate, flavor skills. The last option will mean that they'll get more use, and be used as they were intended.

To you it doesn't matter if the game offers 100 different paths or 1, because apparently you end up doing all of them.

No. In EVN, there are six main story lines, and you can only go through one on each play. Geneforge has something like...five different endings? With three different servile factions you can decide to join (or not), two different outsider factions, and two different main villains. They have different paths, not paths you can choose to not take. There's a difference. A rather huge difference, that I hope you are able to comprehend.

And not going to Shady Sands or V13 every time you play is meta?

Again:

I already know where everything is, so my options are going to Shady Sands like everyone else including Tim Cain "sheeple", skipping ahead using the knowledge I already know, or trying to pretend I don't know where I'm going when I explore even though I do (I guess by closing my eyes and randomly clicking on the map?).

But you already explained why that is. You don't utilize any of the flavor skills, get every book in the game and solve all the quests, hit the lvl cap (or go past it) and have tons of skill-points to spare at the end of the ordeal. What exactly do you expect?

Hit the level cap? No, this happens during a normal play through. Again, read the walkthrough made by the games designer. I did more or less the same thing, so I'm pretty confident I wasn't just doing it wrong (by, you know, talking to people and doing quests).

And on top of that, you complain about not having anything to spend the skill-points on

Umm...no.

How about you do a run doing only the main quest bits?

Game not balanced? It's not the games fault. You just need to skip large portions of it. It's your fault for wanting to play the damn thing, you greedy player. Oh, wait, that's the way the game's designer - and most people - play the game? It's still your fault!

But crying about there being too many opportunities to raise a skill outside of leveling up still has nothing to do with the skill-system in use.

Fine, it's a problem with the game involving the skills that leads to less incentive to invest in a particular skill, leading to even less skills that people find important. But not a problem with the skill system. Happy?

 

[hiver]

Gives writers something solid to play with too.
I think of these as almost something as perks, really, only more focused and direct.

The way I understand it, you're talking about something like skill-trees within skill-subgroups, that get unlocked as you increase the skill? That's a class system. We've got something like it in the new popamole x-com, with 4 specific combat classes and taggable specializations as these classes level up. The difference is, as you can still invest over all the skill-categories (at least, I assume you can?) you're allowing for multi-classing.

I don't know. Re-reading it, I'm not sure if I understood your idea correctly.

Nah, i just put them like that so i dont need to write down every single one. I was too lAZY.
Expand add or move to complimentary skill section as you see fit.
I would only add a doctor threshold in the medicine skill - so first aid and doctor go into one skill - as they should be, but to prevent the player of getting to be a full doctor abilities too early.

Other than that, its really simple.
Everything is the same as usual.
You get enough skill points to develop two-three skills to higher levels per one game, per ranger...
Or diversify as you see fit.
Same as Fallout.

Here, you just have this extra pool with even more skills - that are clearly - complimentary.
You just generally decide which ones you will improve and off you go.
When you earn skill points you can decide to spend some there. On one, two...more - your choice.

 

[Jasede]

30 skills when designers are unable to balance 10?

I love having a crapload of mostly useless skills.

Because then I can make 100% crippled characters like this:

And see if I can still win the game. Plus, it really forces you to find an alternative means of doing everything else. Which is its own fun.

Why are people brofisting this?
Linguist is the most brokenly powerful custom class in Daggerfall because you're free to grind your skills, willingly or inadvertantly, to high levels without actually ever levelling up, thus keeping encounters easy and unchallenging while becoming extremely powerful early.

Even if you go out of your way not to artificially grind linguists with 0.3X multiplier beat every other conceivable class short of some cheesy perks combos.

So either the fisters don't understand how Daggerfall works or they are congratulating Wyrmlord's sarcasm.

 

[shihonage]

I saw that Brian Fargo is following Mitt Romney on his Twitter page. I hope it's just for LOL purposes or else..

I wouldn't expect any reasonably sane businessman to support Barack Obamovich Lenin. Respect for Fargo++

 

[Excidium]

There will be over 30 different skills that the player uses to customize themselves with.

I had no doubt a CRPG would have shit for system design but WHOA.

 

[Brother None]

I wouldn't expect any reasonably sane businessman to support Barack Obamovich Lenin. Respect for Fargo++

He had a picture up on facebook a while back of him and his family posing with the First Lady. We talked politics a bit when I had him on the phone a while back, he seems pretty staunchly Democrat. Probama.

It's certainly better than a split pool, but then a split pool is completely retarded. What are the technical details behind your idea? Are we just talking about categories here? And why not just a tool-tip at the start of character creation that says flat out which skills are more likely to be viable? What's the difference? Should games come with a basic game-guide attachment?

I don't like split pools, but I'll note the newest edition of TDE/Das Schwarze Auge runs things this way, with weighted skills, and I do have a soft spot for that concept. Combat skills being harder to upgrade than hobby skills, it costing two more points to upgrade swords than to upgrade, say, flute playing. It doesn't make logical sense, if you want logical skill weights then it's simply about more complex vs easier-to-learn, but as a game balance concept it's not too bad, as long as you don't overdo it. I once posted an RPG system draft-up when I was considering doing a project of my own that I posted either here or on ITS that contained skill-weights. It has disadvantages, but it's definitely better than skill pools, which I really don't like.

I had no doubt a CRPG would have shit for system design but WHOA.

? Is it really that shockingly high a number in a game with four PCs to spread skills over and NPCs with unique skills?