Warren Spector's Soapbox Thread

[Alienman]

#virtualpeoplelivesmatter

 

[LESS T_T]

That initial tweet was very Warren Spector, on steroid. I respect him for striving interesting non-combat/violence gameplay, and hope him succeed at it, but I don't think that would be achieved by shaming other developers on Twitter. Especially when talking about that White House's propaganda video.

Show your way, Warren.

 

[ciox]

Can't promise, but I don't think I'll ever make another game where you can kill virtual people at all.

SS1 had you killing barely human cyborgs and mutant zombies, SS2 had just hybrids as zombie-like barely human enemies, I can see SS3 respecting that motto without cucking out too badly.

Meanwhile, Prey lets you gun down innocent people without a care and doesn't afraid of anything.

 

[Outlander]

He's gone full retard.

 

[Ash]

See. told y'all: System Shock 3 confirmed for walking sim! ...with disclaimers of "could still have good deep non-traditional gameplay, though I doubt it".

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Your own games can be cut with such a mindset -pressed into the same service of highlighting depictions of violence to undermine art and expression. Such depictions are sometimes necessary if art is going to be useful to our species. Have you not read Shakespeare? The bible?

Warren… this was a dishonestly cut hit reel - strategically out of context shots assembled by a propagandist mindset. That the tactic can have such an impact on a mind as disciplined and sophisticated as yours is disheartening.

I realize the violent game video provided no context, but that doesn't change the fact that the images are in shockingly bad taste. That they could be cut together at all is the problem. Again, I'm just talking about bad taste, not violence in videogames.

This is the point where you can see Spector's brain oozed out of his ears a long time ago and you've been talking to a very convincing animatronic. You can cut anything together, that's the entire point of this tactic. The vast majority of games are either nonviolent or use cartoonish/stylized violence and they have existed since forever.

You could easily cobble up some goreporn violent deaths in movies (especially if you get a bunch of Saw scenes like this highlight reel used like three or four CoD moments) but nobody would think of saying it reflects bad on all film fans. I wunder why.

 

[Ash]

Basically a more primitive version of the virtual murdering of the young girl in the out of context propaganda video.

In Deus Ex's defense it's an option because it's meant to be a convincing immersive simulation, player agency is key etc and invincible NPCs runs counter to that, but pretty much all of the games in that video have just as valid reasoning e.g the Call of Duty knife throw it's...war. Bad guy needs to be stopped. It's the climax to the story. Fallout 4: again simulation (+immersion and agency), same as Deus Ex. Wolfenstien...it's standard industry lethal takedowns. He condemns this he condemns Deus Ex, Dishonored, the decapitations in Arx Fatalis and Dark Messiah.
About the only game in the vid I can confirm to be glorified murder porn is Sniper Elite, but...it's kinda a cool gimmick? Can he not comprehend that it's pure entertainment and doesn't need to be anything more?

Disclaimer: I hate nearly all the games in that video that I've played. It's just he's attacking them for the wrong reasons. Even Manhunt was tastefully done snuff film production simulation on some level. Felt like playing a very unique, very immersive horror movie. But I guess all horror and action movies, or other genres with the occasional violent scene are the bane of the film industry?

Remember gents, the man is a legend. He probably just has strong moral principles for pacifism and is letting that get in the way of his mindset on game design, industry practices etc. What's sick is the systematic selling out by developers and publisher, the lack of gameplay design integrity, the shady as hell business practices etc. But I don't think he cares too much about that stuff.

 

[LESS T_T]

Interview unrelated to the recent shenanigans, with some minefield questions...: https://www.gaming-universe.de/warren-spector-im-exklusiven-gu-interview/2/

Gaming-Universe: Can you name the last (new) game you enjoyed and what you liked about it?

Warren Spector: The new Zelda – Breath of Wild – is pretty impressive. It’s nice to see developers offering players the chance to solve problems the way they want rather than solving puzzles the way the designer wanted them to. I’m not crazy about open world, go wherever you want games, but I’m always psyched about games that fall into the “immersive simulation” category, where you really feel like you’re in an alternate world and can play with a simulation and, ultimately, create your own unique experience. Breath of Wild is validation that the immersive sim style can appeal to a really large audience. That’s totally cool.

GU: You’ve developed games in various genres for many different platforms. The gaming industry has changed and equally to the music industry the “older” generation often states that “things used to be much better in the old days” – do you agree or disagree?

WS: I agree AND disagree. On the one hand, I miss small teams and standalone singleplayer games (oh, wait, that’s what I’m working on now!) But you know what I mean, today it’s multiplayer… competitive… free to play or loot boxes… long tails and DLC… people watching other people play… All that stuff does, I admit, seem weird to me. Not bad, but weird. But at the same time, we’re in an age where anyone with an idea can make a game and reach an audience with it – that wasn’t true even ten years ago, let alone in the “olden days.” How cool is it that a woman in a garage can grab a free game engine, make a game and distribute it digitally. The variety of games and game styles is astonishing now. Hard to look at that and say this is anything but a great time for games. No matter how old you are!

GU: What is your impression of the current state of the gaming industry? How has it changed over the last decade?

WS: Well, I think I already answered that to some extent, but here you go. The gaming industry – the mainstream, triple-A games, tend to be kind of uninteresting (and I have just ensured I will never work again…). Too many games with a number after their names… too many sequels and reboots… But there are also thousands of indies out there making whatever the hell they want and not worrying about Generating Maximum Revenue or ensuring that their games are “sticky” enough that, for years at a time, players won’t go playing some other game. The state of mainstream is “meh.” The state of the medium is pretty solid.

GU: There are people on social media platforms who actually hate people like Anita Sarkeesian (Founder of Feminist Frequency) because of her criticism of the portrayals of women in video games. Sean Murray (No Man’s Sky) also got death threats and there are many more examples. It seems that video games have become serious business, I mean really serious?! What’s to do about it? Did you have similar experience due to the development of your games?

WS: Well, thankfully, I’ve never received death threats, but I’ve certainly gotten my fair share of negative feedback! I think what you’re seeing is that games reflect cultural change and trends, which is to say that Western culture is becoming more coarse, I think, and gamers aren’t immune from that. That coarseness is, obviously, reflected in online communication styles. Perhaps I’m complicit in allowing the problem to continue, but I try to stay focused on making the games I want to make with the full knowledge that some people are going to not like what I do and will overreact to that.

GU: Exaggerated: 25 years ago, 10 people could create a game which is still known today. Nowadays over 100 people create games, of which most are forgotten two weeks after release. What do you think about this development? Do you believe that there will be a rethinking inside the gaming industry during the next couple of years? Or is money always right?

WS: I think what you’re seeing is a very healthy split in the way games are made. Yes, in the mainstream of triple-A development, teams are large (and getting larger), but there’s an equally healthy indie movement that allows us to go back and make games for less money with much smaller teams. At its peak my last studio, Junction Point, had about 200 people, all working on a single game (and to that you can add a LOT of contractors and outside partners). At OtherSide, on System Shock 3, my hope is to stay somewhere around 25 people, internally, with a much smaller number of outside resources helping out. So, basically, I think the model from 25 years ago is still valid.

GU: How do you explain the unbelievable boom of “social games” (especially F2P-games)? Is this maybe the bill the gaming industry has to pay for its innovative poverty? Is the new generation of player bred to actually like these games?

WS: I think social games are booming because people just naturally like interacting with other people. Look at games over the years – and by years, I mean millenia. Games – well, with the exception of solitaire – were always created to bring people together to compete or cooperate. Games were social until the advent of digital games introduced the concept of the “single-player game.” What you see today is games getting back to their natural state. As far as F2P goes, I will go to my grave not understanding the appeal! If I ruled the world, we’d make something, sell it and move on to the next one! But that isn’t the way of the world anymore. You have to adapt and the audience is never wrong.

GU: How do you see the chances for young creators in the current gaming business? With all these free Dev-Kits and platforms (Browser-Games, iPhone, iPad, Indie-XBLA) – do you think it has become easier to make a name for yourself and actually fulfil your projects?

WS: It’s a real mixed bag for young developers these days. On the one hand, there are so many free tools available, and so many distribution outlets… That means anyone with an idea can make that idea a reality and reach an audience with it. But that’s also the problem. Anyone can make a game now. And that means that getting people to notice your game is incredibly hard. There’s just so much competition, so much noise. Standing out is key and that isn’t easy to do. But if you do it, you can make a name for yourself more easily than you could in the past. It doesn’t hurt that people seem more interested in the personalities behind the games than they used to be. Time was, no one cared who made a game. Nowadays, people like you interview people like me!

GU: What kind of advice would you give to young creative brains trying to get into the business or standing at the beginning of a possible career?

WS: Man, there’s a book to be written about this and I don’t think you have space for me to go on quite so long. First, make sure you love games – if you don’t the grindingly hard work of making them will crush you like a bug. It isn’t all fun and games, making games! Second, make games. Competition for positions is fierce so find a way to stand apart. Your application should include games you’ve made on your own, to prove you know what you’re doing and that you can finish something. Third, know thyself. Know what you want to be and do and be great at it. Remember, competition is fierce. Be a great programmer, a great artist, a great designer. And be able to articulate what sort of programmer, artist or designer you are – are you an environment artist or an animator? A systems designer or a level designer? And so on. Fourth, don’t come in touting all your great ideas. Ideas are easy and the people already making games have more than they will ever be able to make in their entire career. Finally, get a broad-based education. Don’t come to me saying you love games and that’s all you do. Talk to me about movies and books and history and psychology and economics… If all you know is games, all you’ll do is imitate other games. I’m not interested in that. Okay, I’ll stop there. Like I said, you could write a book about breaking into game development (and people have…).

GU: Do you have any idea what would have become of you if you hadn’t fallen for the gaming business? Would you do it again?

WS: It’s funny you should say “fallen.” That’s exactly what happened. I was just an amateur (and fanatical) gamer when I fell into a job at Steve Jackson Games, a small tabletop game company in Austin, Texas, where I live. I never planned on that. I figured I’d be a teacher – a university professor – teaching film history, theory and criticism. I wanted nothing more than to be a film historian, watching movies, writing books, that sort of thing. That’s probably what I would have done. Would I live my life the same way if I had it to do over again? Absolutely. Game development has been very good to me. It’s been a great career. I’ve worked with some of the best, most creative, smartest people you can imagine. I got into game dev early enough that I got to watch the medium mature from an infant to, well, not an adult – we’re not there yet – but from infant to teenager. It isn’t every day you get to see a medium of expression born and, maybe, play a little role in its development. Also, I’m not really qualified to do anything other than make games so of course I’d do it again if I had a do-over!

GU: Can you tell us something about your current projects?

WS: Sadly, it’s too early to talk about System Shock 3, the project I’m working on these days. Talk to me later…

GU: Is there anything else that you always wanted to say but never had the chance to?

WS: I think I’ve said enough over the years that I’m amazed anyone wants to hear anything else from me, so I’ll politely decline to say any more here. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to answer your questions.

 

[ciox]

GU: Can you tell us something about your current projects?
WS: Sadly, it’s too early to talk about System Shock 3, the project I’m working on these days. Talk to me later…

System Shock 3 was formerly announced through a teaser site on December 8th, 2015, displaying a 5 days countdown.

 

[toro]

GU: Can you tell us something about your current projects?
WS: Sadly, it’s too early to talk about System Shock 3, the project I’m working on these days. Talk to me later…

System Shock 3 was formerly announced through a teaser site on December 8th, 2015, displaying a 5 days countdown.

With WS at the helm SS3 will probably never be released. It's like 50/50. Maybe for the better.

 

[Infinitron]

OtherSide take it slow. I think Spector only started working full-time on SS3 in mid-2016. Founded a new studio in Austin and worked with a small team for a long time to develop a pitch for Starbreeze and get funding. I think the real preproduction probably only started mid-2017.

 

[Cael]

Given his expy's rants in Ultima 7:2 and Ultima Underworld 2, I doubt any Spector game would be worth the pixels it uses. Would be glad to be proven wrong, but when he is already crying about class warfare in the 1990s, I hold no hope for the guy in the slightest.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Dragon Magazine #123, July 1987 , though Warren Spector wasn't at TSR long before he jumped ship to Origin.

 

[LESS T_T]

Talk on story in games at 2013 GDC:



It's unfortunately hasted, but very usual Warren Spector talk. No dice rolls, more simulation; what to and not to learn from other media (ex: do not learn cuts from films, learn interaction from oral storytelling); how game is about repetition of activities and context around that is important etc.

Also unfortunate choice of thumbnail from GDC Youtube, considering that he calls Walking Dead an interactive movie and it's not he is striving for (despite he enjoyed it and Heavy Rain as they are.)

 

[LESS T_T]

Have a great weekend guys.

Spoiler

(Apparently the guy thinks he works with Blizzard, and probably triggered by Blizzcon news. [Warren's program was co-led by ex-Blizzard COO]

Also the guy mentioning is not the Warren's account.)

 

[Nekot-The-Brave]

How can you post so much shit in such a small amount of time?

 

[Nekot-The-Brave]

Given his expy's rants in Ultima 7:2 and Ultima Underworld 2, I doubt any Spector game would be worth the pixels it uses. Would be glad to be proven wrong, but when he is already crying about class warfare in the 1990s, I hold no hope for the guy in the slightest.

Did you play Deus Ex?

 

[Cael]

Given his expy's rants in Ultima 7:2 and Ultima Underworld 2, I doubt any Spector game would be worth the pixels it uses. Would be glad to be proven wrong, but when he is already crying about class warfare in the 1990s, I hold no hope for the guy in the slightest.

Did you play Deus Ex?

No. Did I dodge a bullet?

 

[LESS T_T]

https://www.pcgamesn.com/underworld-ascendant/warren-spector

We got the creator of Deus Ex to review Dishonored, Zelda, and Fallout 4
The godfather of the immersive sim returns with another this month - but what does he think of the rest?

Many game developers are obsessed with iteration, making and remaking their work until it’s as close to perfect as can be. It’s an attitude that has shaped the whole medium – mechanics are passed on to sequels and spiritual sequels, while the studios that refine ideas are often more celebrated than those who originated them.

There are a handful of developers still working today, however, who helped usher their chosen genre into being. Warren Spector is one of them. Spector had a front row seat to the creation of the immersive sim genre as a producer on Ultima Underworld and System Shock. He later directed Deus Ex, a defining monument in the kind of first-person games that present their worlds as problems to be solved however the player sees fit.

After a couple of fascinating creative detours through the House of Mouse, Spector has rejoining old Looking Glass colleagues at OtherSide Entertainment – the studio that is now readying Underworld Ascendant for release. The game is a callback to those very first immersive sims, but takes on the lessons of a genre that has been altered and iterated on over decades.

It felt like the perfect time to ask Spector to reflect on some of the games his work has inspired. We didn’t ask him to give scores, though – that would have been rude.

DISHONORED
“As far as immersive simulations go, Arkane is right up there among the best practitioners of it. Dishonored is a fairly traditional immersive sim, which is to say that they’re about empowering players. They were clearly inspired by Thief and Deus Ex, which is really cool, and I think they do a great job with empowering players, so no beef there. Their introduction of the way they do magic is also really cool.

“Harvey Smith is over there, who was my lead designer on Deus Ex and the game director on Invisible War. Great pedigree. So it’s no big surprise the that they would make a game that’s closest in spirit and in play to what we do. I’ve got nothing but great things to say about the Dishonored series.”

BIOSHOCK
“A lot of people describe BioShock as an immersive sim and as the spiritual successor to games like System Shock. I describe it as more like – there’s an expression – kissing cousins. It’s similar in some ways to a System Shock game, or a Deus Ex, or an Underworld. Ken Levine is one of the most talented people in this business, and one of the best writers. But if you boil it down, I think he’s more interested in telling his story than we are. We’re much more into the player telling his or her own story. Whereas BioShock is is very much Ken’s story, and it’s a great one. But it’s fairly different than what we do.”

GONE HOME
“You could see the inspiration. There’s less of the systemic stuff, less gameplay frankly, but by design. There’s obviously some inspiration there but it’s very different. BioShock and Gone Home are trying for a little bit of a different thing with clearly an undercurrent of inspiration. I think that’s the way I’d put it.”

FALLOUT 4
“Emil Pagliarulo works on the Fallout games and he’s an old Looking Glass guy. Bethesda games in general are clearly cousins of the immersive sim. But the way I’ve always described that, and I’m probably gonna get myself in trouble here, but in the Bethesda games their simulations are an inch deep and miles wide.

Their whole thing is creating huge expansive worlds that you could explore fully and live in. My games and, I think I can speak for [game director] Joe Fielder and the Underworld Ascendant team as well, they’re an inch wide and miles deep, if you see the distinction. They’re definitely related, but I’d say a little bit distantly related.”

THIEF 4
“Honestly, I never played it so I can’t comment. I should have I guess, but the word on the street kind of put me off.”

THE LEGEND OF ZELDA: BREATH OF THE WILD
“I don’t want to say there’s influence, you know, that would be presumptuous of me in the extreme. But clearly they’re empowering players pretty dramatically and maybe it’s the best of the Bethesda games and our games. It’s a pretty impressive accomplishment in terms of empowering players, and it’s fun.”

DEUS EX: HUMAN REVOLUTION
“Honestly, I didn’t play Mankind Divided. I started and got distracted, but it wasn’t a quality thing. When you start making games you find that your time to play other people’s games goes way down. But I did play Human Revolution, and while there were three or four things where I yelled at the screen in frustration, when I got to the end of the game I sat back and took stock and said to myself, ‘I really had a Deus Ex experience’. That’s pretty cool. It felt like the original game, and they honoured what made the franchise interesting. For me, being a little egocentric, they honoured what made the game wonderful. I was very happy with Human Revolution.”

 

[LESS T_T]

nuEscapist will host interview with Warren inside some virtual world thing-y thing. It will be also streamed via Twitch: https://www.escapistmagazine.com/v2...nd-escapist-host-an-hour-with-warren-spector/

We’re teaming up with Sinespace as a media partner for a live interview with a gaming legend. Warren Spector — developer of Ultima Underworld, Deus Ex, and many other titles — appears in avatar form to discuss his new game Underworld Ascendant and the future of game design. He’ll also offer aspiring developers advice on how to getting started making their own games and developing in Unity 3D. We will exclusively stream the event right here on Escapist as it happens. On top of that: 75 attendees will get exclusive access to attend in avatar form, in-VR-person. Russ Pitts, our editor in chief, will interview Warren alongside Wagner James Au of New World Notes.

When: Saturday, 17th November 15:00 (PST)

Create a free Sinespace account and download the game here.

For anyone unfamiliar, Underworld Ascendant (OtherSide Entertainment) brings together Spector and many of the creators behind Ultima Underworld. Sinespace is a Unity-based social VR/sandbox MMO creation platform. Think of it like Second Life, but specifically built for VR. It’s available in beta on Windows, Mac, Linux, web browsers, Oculus, Vive, and Windows Mixed Reality.

Probably gonna be the first interview after Otherside releasing UA.

 

[Gerrard]

The shit I see on my TL because "Warren Spector liked"

 

[LESS T_T]

So what actually he didn't liked about DX:HR?: https://www.vg247.com/2018/11/12/deus-ex-3-warren-spector/

Warren Spector would make another Deus Ex in a heartbeat – “I screamed in frustration throughout much of Human Revolution”

Warren Spector is one of the minds behind the immersive sim genre – a collection of games that value simulated worlds, consistent rules, and the first-person perspective over all else.

Think of brilliant games such as Dishonored, Thief, and System Shock – they all share the same design ethos.

In the late ‘90s, Doom creator John Romero offered Spector a job at Ion Storm, along with the chance to create is dream game. That game was the original Deus Ex.

Some of you may be more familiar with the modern Deus Ex series – Human Revolution and Mankind Divided – which had nothing to do with Spector, however. I recently got a chance to talk to the legendary game designer and asked him how he feels about the direction the series took in his absence.

“If you ask my wife, she’d tell you that I screamed in frustration throughout much of Human Revolution,” Spector says. “There were three or four things that I would have done differently and those three or four things kind of bug me.”

So, what are those things?

“They had a modal cover system that I’m not crazy about – just let the player hide and make the AI smart enough to know,” he explains. “They didn’t give you a free [cost] weapon, so even kicking someone took energy. The AI didn’t time out effectively, which meant that once you failed a stealth attempt, you were in a shooter experience for the rest of the mission. Oh, and the boss battles. They trained you that there were multiple ways to solve problems, and then they give you a boss battle where you just have to kill the thing.

“Here’s the deal, the real bottom line. When I got to the end, I felt like I had had a Deus Ex experience. The team up there was really respectful of what we wanted to do in the original game and I think they did a really good job, with the exception of just a handful of things that frustrated me.”

The boss battles were addressed in a Director’s Cut, but the rest of those issues are at the very core of the game’s design. Still, the game was solid and it did well enough that a sequel was soon greenlit: Mankind Divided. Mankind Divided ends on a cliffhanger, suggesting another Deus Ex game was also planned, but the series has since been put on hold due to disappointing sales.

“We’ll see,” Spector says. “It has a way of coming back to life. You never know.”

Currently, Spector and the team at Otherside Entertainment are working on Underworld Ascendant, a dungeon crawling take on the immersive sim that launches this week. They’re also working on System Shock 3, a game nobody ever expected to be made. Since the games industry is so unpredictable, does that mean there’s a chance we’ll ever see Spector return to Deus Ex?

“Uhh, we’ll see,” Spector says. “I’d make another game in a heartbeat. I love that world. I love gameplay, [but] don’t hold your breath.”

The thing is, Square Enix owns the IP. Square Enix also has an initiative in which it licenses out old IPs it isn’t using, which is how we got an RTS take on Fear Effect with Fear Effect: Sedna.

So, where do I sign the petition?

Also he screams in frustration at the out-of-context, sensationalist headline:



And some tidbits about the Command & Conquer RPG he worked on before forming Ion Storm Austin: https://www.vg247.com/2018/11/12/command-and-conquer-rpg-warren-spector/

Some details on Warren Spector’s first-person Command and Conquer RPG

At one point, Deus Ex creator Warren Spector was going to make an RPG set in the Command and Conquer universe.

The game, which was cancelled by EA, would share the DNA of Spector’s other games.

“It was going to look a lot like Deus Ex,” Spector tells me. “I knew what kind of game I wanted to make. I had a lot of the gameplay and the vision was there. It was going to be set in a very different world.

“That choice and consequence and recovery style where you could see a problem, pause, make a plan, execute, see the result, make a plan, execute… all that stuff that made Deus Ex Deus Ex, and the deep narrative. It was just going to be set in the Command and Conquer universe.”

Like Spector’s other games, Epic Mickey aside, it was also going to be a first-person experience.

“I don’t know that I have any interest in doing anything else unless it’s Mickey Mouse, in which case third-person was required,” Spector says.

Command and Conquer is an interesting choice for an immersive sim-style RPG, but I can kinda see it working as a spy penetrating and disrupting an enemy base from the inside. At this point, I’d play anything that offered this style of game experience.

Spector and the team at Otherside are currently working on Underworld Ascendant, a first-person dungeon crawler that’s out on November 15.

 

[Tito Anic]

Well the rest of my sentence was that at the end of the day I had a real Deus Ex experience and the team really respected the franchise.

But how? I tried DX:HR and it was nothing like original. I couldnt stand it more than 2h.

 

[unfairlight]

It was different but to say it had nothing in common is going a bit too far, the gameplay was still similar with how you could choose what way you want to accomplish your objectives. I think that HR and MD are both overall quite good/great games.

 

[ZeniBot]

Command and Conquer style Deus Ex game would've been interesting, but would be better if it wasn't a mainline C&C title. I prefer it as an RTS. But using that universe would be a good starting point for a Deus Ex like game.
I do however keep getting the feeling that Warren doesn't have the zeal he once had for game design and we really saw that with Epic Mickey. I would love SS3 to be a huge improvement on SS2 but I'm doubtful. The fact that he says Dishonored and Bioshock are "different" from what he does is some what cool to hear because I don't want SS3 to be anything like either of those, I want it to be a natural progression from SS2, though biggest incline would be if we see some features from SS1 returned like the hacking system. I also think that SS3 should take some NPC interaction from Deus Ex because I do feel like Audio-Logs aren't in fashion anymore and from how Warren speaks he wants his games to be very interactive and character driven which System Shock just wasn't but Deus Ex was. A mash up of the two could be cool.

I still respect him a lot more than I do Todd.