KickStarter Vigilantes: neo-noir, turn based tactical RPG

[Kyl Von Kull]

Did you set alight / blow up many enemies with fuel barrels/gas canisters yet?

Hey Timeslip, love what you’re doing here. I got the early-early access from Humble over the summer, is there a way I can transfer that to the actually early access/will it update automatically?

Also, if I focus too much on own gang, will the other two get stronger at their expense, beyond just how they all get stronger over time. PS: really like how you make resting a tough strategic decision because enemies get better, too.

 

[ushas]

I got the early-early access from Humble over the summer, is there a way I can transfer that to the actually early access/will it update automatically?

In case needed before Timeslip gets to you:
Humble download link you've been given at the beginning is updated with each version. And I think the same place also provides a link for the Steam EA key. I suppose Steam then updates automatically?

PS: really like how you make resting a tough strategic decision because enemies get better, too.

^This. Strategic stress is something that gives depth and meaning to all sort of things. Apart mentioned resting, even repair decision makes sense when time is tight.

 

[ushas]

Btw. a bribery option in interrogation [Trade]? Can also be used in some scenarios. But make it very expensive.
Then maybe a secondary feature of some perk would be lowering the cost of successful bribery.

What if player could set stance for ally that is used for surveillance mission?

For example:
"Observe"- Ally just uses surveillance skill to passively increase intel of city district. Low risk, low reward option.
"Agressive" -Take precence check to gain more intel and/or some loot. Change to be injured in case of failure.
"Bribe" - Uses trade skill which determines how much gained intel will cost.
late edit.
Critical success in bribing could also make an enemy or some enemies to run away without a fight in combat.

So you can go for higher risk & reward or save time with money? That would be interesting.

Some thoughts:
If "Observe" gets specific amount based on Surveillance skill, then in "Aggressive" mode it can make a roll to get intel within [-X%,+X%] range around this value. Statistically speaking nothing changes, but you have gambling feel incorporated. Plus it can still make a difficulty roll against the second skill to get additional reward or be harmed. Two rolls supply more outcomes. For example, an ally comes back with twice as much intel but injured.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

For example, an ally comes back with twice as much intel but injured.

You can also add rolls for some loot and/or taking out minor gang member in there.

For bribing I thought that it would take same time, but there would be test against ally's trading skill and player have to use resource (money, let's say 100€/mission) in short supply for it.
For example critical failure would mean that money spent is simply wasted (crooks tell naive money spending idiot outright lies), but you still get some intel from ally's observations of the area.
Normal success could be what NPC would get from observation mission + bonus from trading skill.
Critical success same as above, but enemy gang member becomes bribed and will run away from tactical without giving a fight saying something like: "I think I left my stove on" or "Later, suckers."

There probably should be pop up screen where returning ally reports about mission results
Something along the lines of:
(Ray Case conducted bribing mission at sector XX. Intel +XX, reveal sector wealth/danger level/crime rate if sufficient intel reached, Ganger has been bribed and won't fight against us)

 

[ushas]

For bribing I thought that it would take same time

Yeah, I understood it that way. Just that you may say that both b & c options offer opportunity to save [future] time, when you're getting more intel per unit of time.

For example critical failure would mean that money spent is simply wasted (crooks tell naive money spending idiot outright lies), but you still get some intel from ally's observations of the area.
Normal success could be what NPC would get from observation mission + bonus from trading skill.
Critical success same as above, but enemy gang member becomes bribed and will run away from tactical without giving a fight saying something like: "I think I left my stove on" or "Later, suckers."

Two skills alternative: Presence rolls against difficulty (gang morale?) on the lies <-> bribed axis, as you outlined, and Trade skill determines cost. So if the former is high but the latter low, you have a fair chance to bribe but it's pretty expensive, etc.

Perhaps Timeslip will correct me, IIRC each city district has # of occupants. It may or may not relate to crime rate and/or to number of enemies. What if such strategical bribe removes one occupant from a tile? Tactically, it's probably almost the same as you proposed, but possibly influences the strategical layer right away.

In before Sam goes into politics

There probably should be pop up screen where returning ally reports about mission results
Something along the lines of:
(Ray Case conducted bribing mission at sector XX. Intel +XX, reveal sector wealth/danger level/crime rate if sufficient intel reached, Ganger has been bribed and won't fight against us)

Dunno about pop ups, perhaps the bottom right dialog can work as a past N missions log:

Spoiler

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Perhaps Timeslip will correct me, IIRC each city district has # of occupants. It may or may not relate to crime rate and/or to number of enemies. What if such strategical bribe removes one occupant from a tile? Tactically, it's probably almost the same as you proposed, but possibly influences the strategical layer right away.

In before Sam going into politics

I thought that bribed member of the gang running during tactical mission would give nice feedback of successful bribing.
(Also change to betray the betrayer and loot his corpse)

Besides game doesn't give you direct info about population of city district.

Dunno about pop ups, but the bottom right dialog can work as a past N missions log:

Spoiler

Yeah. Something like that would do nicely.

 

[ushas]

Perhaps Timeslip will correct me, IIRC each city district has # of occupants. It may or may not relate to crime rate and/or to number of enemies. What if such strategical bribe removes one occupant from a tile? Tactically, it's probably almost the same as you proposed, but possibly influences the strategical layer right away.

In before Sam going into politics

I thought that bribed member of the gang running during tactical mission would give nice feedback of successful bribing.

(Also change to betray the betrayer and loot his corpse)

You're right on the feedback feel, betraying the batrayer, hmm. I can imagine either of those, depends. Or... you can have two types of briberies, one strategical via a surveillance mission and one tactical - conducted by the team at the start of a combat mission.

Or a purse item to be added... So during a battle: you approach an enemy in close and use the purse item on him. If Trade vs. Morale successfull he switches to deserter state. Overly complicating, eh? What about the deserter state is the same as fleeing state, except the enemy AI has orders to attack deserters (is it possible?), more or less agressively, depends on a gang.

Edit: I was a bit joking by piling up the options but the deserter state, if possible, could be also used for as-if-enemies-attacking-civilians scenarios...

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Perhaps Timeslip will correct me, IIRC each city district has # of occupants. It may or may not relate to crime rate and/or to number of enemies. What if such strategical bribe removes one occupant from a tile? Tactically, it's probably almost the same as you proposed, but possibly influences the strategical layer right away.

In before Sam going into politics

I thought that bribed member of the gang running during tactical mission would give nice feedback of successful bribing.

(Also change to betray the betrayer and loot his corpse)

You're right on the feedback feel, betraying the batrayer, hmm. I can imagine either of those, depends. Or... you can have two types of briberies, one strategical via a surveillance mission and one tactical - conducted by the team at the start of a combat mission.

Or a purse item to be added... So during a battle: you approach an enemy in close and use the purse item on him. If Trade vs. Morale successfull he switches to deserter state. Overly complicating, eh? What about the deserter state is the same as fleeing state, except the enemy AI has orders to attack deserters (is it possible?), more or less agressively, depends on a gang.

Edit: I was a bit joking by piling up the options but the deserter state, if possible, could be also used for as-if-enemies-attacking-civilians scenarios...

It's probably better to keep it simple and just leave bribery for ally surveillance missions (and perhaps some scripted events.)
Combat as it is still very fast paced and offers little interactions besides beating, shooting and exploding people.
System where ally surveillance missions could affect enemy forces might give player reason to not use ally leadership as obvious dumb stat when one could use it for preparing the battlefield.

Of course if non controllable civilians could be added, that might open whole new possibilities for scenarios.

edit.
One interesting angle is that now that there is code for destructible objects. Such system could be used for things that player should protect or destroy during missions. If AI could target those things.

 

[ushas]

At one point I was thinking that the initial bypass round can be expanded as a sort of choose-your-own-advantage tactical round, where bribery is one of the options an ally can choose from, aside re-positioning. But your points are sound. Yeah, something encouraging more than one Leadership stat on the party... However, it could be still useful if surveillance bribery has some strategical meaning too, in case we won't attack a district.

Of course if non controllable civilians could be added, that might open whole new possibilities for scenarios.

Yeah that was the thinking. 'Deserters' might be used for deserting enemies as well as for a type of civilians, it's just matter of presentation.

One interesting angle is that now that there is code for destructible objects. Such system could be used for things that player should protect or destroy during missions. If AI could target those things.

^Varying objectives. Right now though, they don't target those exploding objects when we are next to it, right? At least it hasn't happened to me yet.

Having no idea how much chance has either of those things.

Edit - regarding Leadership: I've heard that in Elex attributes serve only for unlocking things? Haven't played the game to see for myself, but if stats like Leadership and Utility are prerequisites for some interesting perks, that's also viable incentive.

 

[udm]

Whoop whoop! Can't wait to try the update this weekend!

Did you set alight / blow up many enemies with fuel barrels/gas canisters yet?

Not yet man sorry. Haven't had much time to give it a proper test. Might have to wait till next week

 

[Timeslip]

Btw. a bribery option in interrogation [Trade]? Can also be used in some scenarios. But make it very expensive.
Then maybe a secondary feature of some perk would be lowering the cost of successful bribery.

What if player could set stance for ally that is used for surveillance mission?

For example:
"Observe"- Ally just uses surveillance skill to passively increase intel of city district. Low risk, low reward option.
"Aggressive" -Take presence check to gain more intel and/or some loot. Change to be injured in case of failure.
"Bribe" - Uses trade skill which determines how much gained intel will cost.
late edit.
Critical success in bribing could also make an enemy or some enemies to run away without a fight in combat.

late edit 2.
Critical success on aggressive could also give gang members on target district some negative status effect like "demoralized."

Am keeping an open mind about ally operations. It's not something can look at right away, as there's more fundamental work to do, but interested in ideas.

 

[Timeslip]

I've played current version until 30th day of game time now.

Some thoughts about gameplay changes behind spoilers:

Spoiler

My main character is pretty much the same as in previous version

Spoiler

-Team and all the loadouts are pretty much same too. Only changes being that Emilia wields precision rifle with lower AP requirements and I've given Ray pistol with double tap attack instead of upgraded revolver.
(If build works I'm not usually going to break it.) I've got access to higher tier items dropped by bosses, but those don't quite fit to my play style.
-Had much rougher early game this time with Sam and allies occasionally going down. Had to use more trauma kits too. Probably because I only found Ray on day 9 or so. My other characters were initially kinda squishy.
-Thanks to new overwhelm status and more goons on the battlefield churchers were no longer complete push overs. They also started to field weapons and specialists much sooner.
-More enemies on the field means that I've had more use for crowd control (grenades, shotgun cone and explosive stuff on battlescape) than in previous version. I've also used more smokes to cover my advance to ranged enemies.
-Generally enemy specialists seem now much more common, which is good because more challenge and because intelligence about enemy underbosses and rackets seem to be more common from specialists.
-It's now much easier to get intel about lieutenants and rackets. I've taken out 1 lieutenant of all gangs and same with rackets. Racket fights seem to be no tougher than normal street fights.
-Greater effect of bypass skill on the distance which unit can tactically redeploy gives opportunity for characters with high levels of it to start combat right behind you. I think this is welcome change and fits into the game.
-No game breaking bugs or crashes encountered.
edit.
-I'm still playing on Vigilante difficulty for testing purposes.
-Enemy turn resolution is faster (or I haven't run into that particular situation which causes AI to think over 1 minute again)
-Enemy grenade usage is competent, it will punish player for concentrating troops in one cluster whenever possible

edit.
Stuff added behind spoilers.

The churchers are now less inclined to spend money on economic investments, so they should offer a better challenge. The surrounded mechanic is, as you pointed out, most likely to work in their favour. Was considering giving them a stat buff also, to make them a bit harder hitting and resilient. Do you think they are still notably easier than other faction? If you have the time, would be interested in having a look around your save, to see how the gangs are doing.

A question: do you think the game's getting easier as you progress?

 

[Timeslip]

Well, I bought it. It was the equivalent of almost 3 days of lunch, but meh, who needs to eat anyway? But I want to wait for the full version to play it.

Thanks Drowed : )

 

[Timeslip]

Did you set alight / blow up many enemies with fuel barrels/gas canisters yet?

Hey Timeslip, love what you’re doing here. I got the early-early access from Humble over the summer, is there a way I can transfer that to the actually early access/will it update automatically?

Also, if I focus too much on own gang, will the other two get stronger at their expense, beyond just how they all get stronger over time. PS: really like how you make resting a tough strategic decision because enemies get better, too.

Hey Kyl Von Kull - glad you're liking Vigilantes. If you check your humble package in the store, there should be a Steam key attached - if there isn't, let me know an will sort it out for you. You're right on focusing on one gang - attacking a gang forces them to invest in recruitment, and taking out their rackets hurts them economically - this means they have less money to invest in better equipment and training.

 

[Timeslip]

"I think I left my stove on"

That's going in as a flee bark : )

IIRC each city district has # of occupants. It may or may not relate to crime rate and/or to number of enemies.

Right on that. Danger level is based on number of enemies and primarily effects buffs, crime rate increases over time depending on number of enemies present and determines how many extra enemies you'll face in combat. Will keep bribe idea in mind!

 

[Timeslip]

Edit: I was a bit joking by piling up the options but the deserter state, if possible, could be also used for as-if-enemies-attacking-civilians scenarios...

Open to the possibility of protect civilian missions, but how would they be distinct from missions when you get a temporary ally and have to protect them?

 

[Timeslip]

Combat as it is still very fast paced and offers little interactions besides beating, shooting and exploding people.
System where ally surveillance missions could affect enemy forces might give player reason to not use ally leadership as obvious dumb stat when one could use it for preparing the battlefield.

Leadership will play a bigger role, both for the criminal and player teams in this update.

edit.
One interesting angle is that now that there is code for destructible objects. Such system could be used for things that player should protect or destroy during missions. If AI could target those things.

Any scenarios in mind?

 

[Timeslip]

^Varying objectives. Right now though, they don't target those exploding objects when we are next to it, right? At least it hasn't happened to me yet.

You're right on the enemy not targetting barrels etc, at present. Hope to have more time to work on AI - think this would be one of the simpler additions to make, so there's a fair chance it will happen

 

[Timeslip]

Not yet man sorry. Haven't had much time to give it a proper test. Might have to wait till next week

Know how it is. Have hardly played any games in last two weeks. It will be there for you when you get a chance!

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Timeslip I will send those saves.

A question: do you think the game's getting easier as you progress?

Pretty much yes. There is some feeling of arms race happening (gangs start to field specialists, get level ups, assault rifles) before I outpace them.
I'm still playing on Vigilante difficulty which is a bit on the easy side for me. I also pretty much got rest of the lieutenants located or at least partially on sight.
My build is utility character, that is initially a bit weak on combat. Someone who min maxes his character might have different experience.

The churchers are now less inclined to spend money on economic investments, so they should offer a better challenge. The surrounded mechanic is, as you pointed out, most likely to work in their favour. Was considering giving them a stat buff also, to make them a bit harder hitting and resilient. Do you think they are still notably easier than other faction?

They've gone from completely harmless breather levels to on par with mafia I think.
Churchers can now really overwhelm incautious or skeleton crew running player from early on.

Open to the possibility of protect civilian missions, but how would they be distinct from missions when you get a temporary ally and have to protect them?

I was thinking about something that would be closer to terror missions of X-com.

Any scenarios in mind?

For object protection missions:
Protect storefront scenario.
Sam & pals could intervene with crooks that are going to smash every car on parking lot.
Generally those could be scenarios where gangs do some property destruction to intimidate locals and player seeks to stop them.

I actually have much harder time to come up with item destruction mission since Reiker city isn't quite open warzone.
Closest thing that I could think of is "open safe/lockbox" -type scenario where you must reach an object where your characters will obtain stuff and then do fighting retreat while enemy reinforcements keep coming in. Might require special attack type where player uses bypass skill to open the thing.

*All my suggestions are purely on the realm of speculative and therefore shouldn't be taken in any shape or form indicative of features that final game will have, since I'm not doing any of the work related in it.

 

[Timeslip]

Timeslip I will send those saves.

Thanks, had a look through them. A couple of things am curious about:

1. Have you encountered any rackets yet? They don't seem to have built any so far, and focused on better equipment / training.

2. You've taken out the ambushing gang leader for each faction - did you run away from them at first? How difficult was the fight?

3. Any guess on how many hours you've clocked up? You've got quite a lot of intel on the lieutenants, which is the best measure of progress to completion. Don't want to make the game too long, and overstay its welcome.

Pretty much yes. There is some feeling of arms race happening (gangs start to field specialists, get level ups, assault rifles) before I outpace them.
I'm still playing on Vigilante difficulty which is a bit on the easy side for me. I also pretty much got rest of the lieutenants located or at least partially on sight.
My build is utility character, that is initially a bit weak on combat. Someone who min maxes his character might have different experience.

Have had the same impression, on Vigilante and Hard Boiled difficulty. Will look at doing something about this, thinking of marginally slowing player progress and slightly decreasing the recruitment cost of gang members, so they can replace losses more easily.

They've gone from completely harmless breather levels to on par with mafia I think.
Churchers can now really overwhelm incautious or skeleton crew running player from early on.

Good to know the changes (surrounded & more investment in troops) are having an effect.

I was thinking about something that would be closer to terror missions of X-com.

The gangs aren't generally interested in mass slaughtering civilians, and there's no fog of war - these factors might make this type of mission less viable. The nearest thing have been thinking about is an occasionally recurring mission for the churchers, where they attack an isolated house in a rural area. Have a viable motivation for this. The civilians would likely have to be under player control, but could give them no equipment and much lower stats.

For object protection missions:
Protect storefront scenario.
Sam & pals could intervene with crooks that are going to smash every car on parking lot.
Generally those could be scenarios where gangs do some property destruction to intimidate locals and player seeks to stop them.

I actually have much harder time to come up with item destruction mission since Reiker city isn't quite open warzone.
Closest thing that I could think of is "open safe/lockbox" -type scenario where you must reach an object where your characters will obtain stuff and then do fighting retreat while enemy reinforcements keep coming in. Might require special attack type where player uses bypass skill to open the thing.

*All my suggestions are purely on the realm of speculative and therefore shouldn't be taken in any shape or form indicative of features that final game will have, since I'm not doing any of the work related in it.

Will keep the idea in mind. Agree, it's harder to get ideas for a number of mission types outside a total war scenario. Fire away on suggestions, won't be able to pursue everything, but it's good to have a bigger idea pool to choose from.

 

[ArchAngel]

Stopping a bank heist scenario might be fun. But it would require a bigger indoors map.

Or for those survival nuts, they send their lowest members to rob a gun shop. Most of them start the map with bad weapons but they charge for the best guns instead of fighting you. You need to stop as many of them as you can before they do that or you get a much harder fight now.

Church has a recruitment meeting which is more like obduction event. You need to stop them from taking away X number of people from the crowd

 

[ushas]

Edit: I was a bit joking by piling up the options but the deserter state, if possible, could be also used for as-if-enemies-attacking-civilians scenarios...

Open to the possibility of protect civilian missions, but how would they be distinct from missions when you get a temporary ally and have to protect them?

Very much.

But you'll have better idea whether holds or if worth at all. Can imagine, if enemies are able to attack their own under certain conditions, it opens new possibilities. Perhaps emergent mechanic like deserting, or us [accidentally] causing civilian casualties. Moreover, if AI controlled NPCs have simple behaviours (fleeing variant or other non-violent) -> is it possible to have more units on the battlefield? Allows mentioned terror-like scenarios and others. For example, a variant of the bank robbery where we protect fleeing this time (heh, initially thought the bank building is hospital): with them being AI controlled, can be spawned each turn. Etc.

As over-thinking already, some vague thoughts on distinct civilians below.

Spoiler

First of all, only summing up civilian units tactically/mechanically. Objectives don't need to be always protection, or even tied to them. No idea what fits the game or viable.

1. Joinable NPCs on our side (we control them but can't harm, limited number)
1a. Stats: 1-3 civilians with very low stats (so indeed need protection); versus missions with 1-2 badass NPCs (more like helping our team, or have common goal).
1b. Aggression: can vary across scenarios (enemies go more after NPC or after us), or within a scenario (eg. when nearing the flee zone or otherwise triggered change).
1c. Game mechanic: For example, when friends with police, Emilia has a phone number (active perk). You can call a backup once per battle, spawns a cop to join next turn. Each use lowers their goodwill though, and no backup when drops bellow buddies threshold.


2. Neutral NPCs on enemy side (controlled by AI, we can harm them)
2a. Deserter mechanic: Perhaps the battle starts with some units deserting or they might when motivated (a purse was stupid, let's have a bribery perk...)
2b. Civilian-enemy rank: technically enemy but counts as a civilian. Apart deserter, can have other non-violent behaviours. Or even a situation where a neutral NPC is aggressive and it's up to us what to do - eliminate in self defense or make/let him flee?
2c. Scenarios with up to ~6 civilians having very simple behaviours versus with few but more refined <- that said if simpler AI allows more units at all.
2d. Switching AI behaviour during battle (eg. triggers in # of turns, or they are standing around till an object blocking their exit path isn't eliminated, then switch to running).

3. Fluid NPCs
3a. Alliances to be decided at start: For example, initially it says cops and gangsters are having a chat. Based on what we say and/or on our prior reputation, cops either join us, join enemies, stick around to watch the show or flee... Or because viva la bribery, the scenario may as well be about gangsters trying to bribe a cop and we outbid them.
3b. If possible can switch sides during combat (eg. some trigger like head injury, scripted to betray us in # of turns, or is opportunist - his side is loosing)

4. Map obstructing NPCs (map objects uncontrollable by either side)
4a. More such people around maps, even as a background. City having civilians feel.
4b. Destructible human-objects? (then a human-object next to a fuel barrel-object....)
4c. Can barks be positioned above them? Getting some cheering up. Or the opposite.
Btw. a bug report: they aren't providing half-cover.

 

[ushas]

The gangs aren't generally interested in mass slaughtering civilians, and there's no fog of war - these factors might make this type of mission less viable.

Doesn't need to be mass slaughter.

Something like this

Church has a recruitment meeting which is more like obduction event. You need to stop them from taking away X number of people from the crowd

works well.

Or a demonstration against a law that would help a gang financially. They're trying to harass and scatter the people. Perhaps civilians are more cowards so switch to fleeing after just a scratch. The more of them stay the higher chance of the law not passed or so. Not sure if fits the game though.
Edit: If those NPCs switch into normal withdrawal (not deserter), then gangsters will naturally stop attacking them. That would look like they were just trying to frighten civilians, not harm.

The nearest thing have been thinking about is an occasionally recurring mission for the churchers, where they attack an isolated house in a rural area. Have a viable motivation for this. The civilians would likely have to be under player control, but could give them no equipment and much lower stats.

Sounds interesting. Does it mean it triggers in certain time windows instead by us attacking the district?

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

1. Have you encountered any rackets yet? They don't seem to have built any so far, and focused on better equipment / training.

I've taken out a racket from every gang (chopshop, night club and that training center), besides special maps those didn't seem to be much different from usual street fights.
None of the gangs deployed any specialists into those levels.

2. You've taken out the ambushing gang leader for each faction - did you run away from them at first? How difficult was the fight?

I encountered my first leader when my character was somewhere around level 12-15, got soundly trashed and had to retreat with my 2 surviving team members.
I actually took out Survivalist lieutenant first with level 18-20:ish team. Had to use many trauma kits in that encounter to keep the team in fight.

I don't think that ambushing will work on my semi random pattern on which I attack sectors; besides I never attack same sector twice in a row.

3. Any guess on how many hours you've clocked up? You've got quite a lot of intel on the lieutenants, which is the best measure of progress to completion. Don't want to make the game too long, and overstay its welcome.

About 12 hours on this version.