Grand Strategy Victoria 3

[Reina]

You act as though a good GSG doesn't exist. If Paradox took, for example, the Winter King mod from CK2 and added proper, solid mechanics to it instead of the scripts the modders are using for the lack of better tools, I'd praise Paradox to high heavens. Hell, if they took the fantasy mods like Elder Kings or Geheimnisnacht and implemented them with the full budget of Paradox studios, I'd happily pay a hundred dollars a pop. Because they're good, fun mods that are only ever held back by the base game. If they remade EU4 to be simulationist like MEIOU, I'd be ecstatic.

Okay, I get it. But here's my problem: those modded games are good PRECISELY because they are mods, not base games. Proper MEIOU-like game is a wet dream of all history enthusiasts who are also veterans of Paradox GSGs - but only theirs. Imagine normal (but interested in GSGs) player having a go at MEIOU without first getting accustomed with EU4 systems with vanilla - even I can get a little overwhelmed by large mods like this, and I've been playing (mostly heavily modded) Paradox GSGs since I was ten.
Same with Gehemnisnacht/Elder Kings/whatever total conversion mod you can name. I remember a few mods that f.e. ported mechanics from GOT mod into vanilla. They were shit, because those mechanics didn't fit without general systems that work only in GoT setting.
Many of those mods heavily rely on flavour (unique events/storylines/decisions), but here's the thing: making flavour is relatively easy BUT extremely labour-intensive. I know that firsthand because at some point I did dip in seriously modding various Paradox titles. It's possible for modders who have all the time in their world, but not Paradox. Their singular team counts what, 20 people? If we consider other needs (like, making the actual game work), that's not much, not enough to delegate folks to write tons of funky stuff.

In particular, I remember debate around release of EU3: Divine Wind. In that expansion, Japan ended up being divided between completely unhistorical factions, with largely bland, ahistorical events and decisions. As it turned out, they could only delegate 2 (IIRC) people to do the research AND writing (in just a few months!) for the entire thing, lest it would be financially unviable. Plus, modders have all their time in the world and unlimited developement span, while production studio has to say 'stop' at certain point. Sure, CK2 with Gehemnisnacht is tons of fun now, but was it fun when Gehemnisnacht was just ~year into development? I remember it was total mess of a mod for a long time, and large parts (like Skaven) had to be cut off by submods for it to even work.

So yes, I think what you want is unattainable, unless you seriously expect for Paradox to work pro publico bono.

 

[Fedora Master]

Achieving the same quality as they did in the past is already too much to ask of PDX.

 

[Reina]

Achieving the same quality as they did in the past is already too much to ask of PDX.

I once thought the same, but upon pondering, it made me realize that I mostly (but not always - for example Imperator, after Johan was put aside, ended up more fun to me than EU:Rome) disliked their new approach to the games, not the results. They only 'remade' their game without completely shaking up the philosophy two times: with Crusader Kings 2 and Victoria 2, and both times the sequel ended up vastly superior to the original (after few initial problems were ironed out in case of Vic2). I, for example, strongly dislike HoI4 with its simplicity and "arcadeness", but I wouldn't say it's exactly lower quality than, let's say HoI2, which I played a lot as a teenager - it's just... different.

 

[None]

it will probably also be added via DLC to CK3

Not at the rate the current team has been going.

 

[thesecret1]

Chinese Empire was the 13th DLC for CK2, and came out 5+ years after its release.

But before that happened, we had 12 meaty DLCs with lots of features. What does CK3 have?

The CK3 platform is better than the CK2 platform.

It would be, if the promised DLCs actually materialized and were as good as CK2 ones. As of right now, it is not.

Mods and expansions come over time, as they did for CK2.

Except CK2 had plenty of them two years after release. CK3 does not.

Go play CK2 vanilla, you might be shocked at how much you misremember it.

I know it is lacking, it's why I never play it. But it still beats CK3's, and provides lots of systems for mods.

Proper MEIOU-like game is a wet dream of all history enthusiasts who are also veterans of Paradox GSGs - but only theirs. Imagine normal (but interested in GSGs) player having a go at MEIOU without first getting accustomed with EU4 systems with vanilla - even I can get a little overwhelmed by large mods like this, and I've been playing (mostly heavily modded) Paradox GSGs since I was ten.

None of the CK2 mods I listed are particularly complicated. Hell, even MEIOU isn't that complicated once you get past the dogshit UI and realize you don't need to care about 90% of the numbers they put there. Something a studio like Paradox could easily fix.

making flavour is relatively easy BUT extremely labour-intensive. I know that firsthand because at some point I did dip in seriously modding various Paradox titles. It's possible for modders who have all the time in their world, but not Paradox. Their singular team counts what, 20 people? If we consider other needs (like, making the actual game work), that's not much, not enough to delegate folks to write tons of funky stuff.

Modders don't work 8 hours a day and often have smaller teams. A dedicated person working on the game for years (as paradox does) could easily cram the game chock-full of flavor. Plus, it's not like Paradox cannot afford larger teams - they could easily triple the amount of people if they felt they were lacking in manpower. The reason why paradox doesn't do flavour is because it doesn't want to, not because it can't

In particular, I remember debate around release of EU3: Divine Wind. In that expansion, Japan ended up being divided between completely unhistorical factions, with largely bland, ahistorical events and decisions. As it turned out, they could only delegate 2 (IIRC) people to do the research AND writing (in just a few months!) for the entire thing, lest it would be financially unviable.

That was old Paradox a long time ago, when the whole genre was niche as fuck. This is no longer the case. Paradox is a large publisher now and the GSG audience grew massively since then. Not to mention the amount of revenue Paradox milks with its DLC model.

 

[Reina]

Hell, even MEIOU isn't that complicated once you get past the dogshit UI and realize you don't need to care about 90% of the numbers they put there. Something a studio like Paradox could easily fix.

You may think that, but I think sales/interest in of modder-made games (Like AoD/DH/FoG or infamous Magna Mundi) prove that's not the case. Funnily, DH was least advertised of them all and had most milquetoast rcepetion of all modder-made Paradox games, and got it's beloved status thanks to sheer stroke of luck (they got... mod-propelled by Kaiserreich) and the fact that one-two of its devs continued working on it long after Paradox stopped paying them for it (last patch was released, IIRC, seven years after release of the game).

Modders don't work 8 hours a day and often have smaller teams

You'd be surprised. And their teams might be smaller (but not all - largest mods are often amalgamation of smaller mods after all), but they also don't have to care much for technical/graphical/sound aspect of the product. Even relatively mid-sized mod like Lux Invicta for CK2 had, after the initial developer quit (burned out) to be just maintained by 4 people.

The reason why paradox doesn't do flavour is because it doesn't want to, not because it can't

I didn't check it recently, but around 2013-2015 Paradox was basically willing to hire anyone with aptitude, and could not fill its ranks with valuable labour. Game developers who are willing to work for that salary AND relocate to Stockholm AND have interest in history AND ability to do research on their own, are scarce.

 

[thesecret1]

and got it's beloved status thanks to sheer stroke of luck (they got... mod-propelled by Kaiserreich)

That's simply not true. DH was popular even without Kaiserreich (which itself is like junk food. There are a lot better mods that play to the strengths of the game).

You'd be surprised. And their teams might be smaller (but not all - largest mods are often amalgamation of smaller mods after all), but they also don't have to care much for technical/graphical/sound aspect of the product. Even relatively mid-sized mod like Lux Invicta for CK2 had, after the initial developer quit (burned out) to be just maintained by 4 people.

And yet, despite not caring about those things, and working for free, they deliver a superior product by an order of magnitude

I didn't check it recently, but around 2013-2015 Paradox was basically willing to hire anyone with aptitude, and could not fill its ranks with valuable labour. Game developers who are willing to work for that salary AND relocate to Stockholm AND have interest in history AND ability to do research on their own, are scarce.

You don't need a game developer for flavour, you can do with an 18yo script kiddie that likes history. Because that's what half the modders are. Plus, why even relocate? This in particular can easily be done remotely.

 

[None]

You may think that, but I think sales/interest in of modder-made games (Like AoD/DH/FoG or infamous Magna Mundi) prove that's not the case. Funnily, DH was least advertised of them all and had most milquetoast rcepetion of all modder-made Paradox games, and got it's beloved status thanks to sheer stroke of luck (they got... mod-propelled by Kaiserreich) and the fact that one-two of its devs continued working on it long after Paradox stopped paying them for it (last patch was released, IIRC, seven years after release of the game).

That wasn't luck, it was a deliberate decision. DH was explicitly designed as a modder's HOI2. Just look at the credits and contributions and you'll see basically every major HOI2 mod dev had a hand in developing the game. KRDH itself was being worked on before DH was released, with most work done by Matej von Jakubco. Devs like AC also worked on KR. Maybe they "got lucky" that there happened to be a huge modding community, but that'd be the same as saying Henry Ford was lucky people wanted to buy his products.

Also, the last patch was actually released this year, 11 years after release. Albeit a minor one, with a major one supposedly in the works.

 

[Reina]

That wasn't luck, it was a deliberate decision. DH was explicitly designed as a modder's HOI2.

So was Arsenal of Democracy - in fact, it had maybe even more improvements over the original HoI2 - yet the fanbase chose DH. I remember the release of DH very vividly, and at first, everyone was very sceptical of the game (it was basically regarded as an inferior AoD, which was very warmly received, then quickly fizzled out). People stuck with it only because Kaiserreich team chose DH as their platform, and other major mods followed later, after it became clear that AoD is kaput and Iron Cross turned out ot be a total dud.

And yet, despite not caring about those things, and working for free, they deliver a superior product by an order of magnitude

They also don't have to worry about deadlines, marketing and sales figures. Again, if you want to compare modded games with vanilla offerings, compare them at the same stage of development. Is CK3 worse than Gehemnisacht/Winter King were shortly following their initial release? WK was basically a map mod (with some parts cut from other popular mods) during the first year, and Gehemnisnacht was a buggy mess. If CK3 is a content desert after 5-6 years then I'll agree with you, but so far, Paradox has managed to "engooden" all major titles they stuck on with (and even ones they abandoned, like Imperator, ended up much better than initial releases).

You don't need a game developer for flavour, you can do with an 18yo script kiddie that likes history. Because that's what half the modders are. Plus, why even relocate? This in particular can easily be done remotely.

Maybe in theory. In practice, you need to consider workflow, corporate culture, team cohesion and, last but not least, salaries. People have been proposing this brilliant idea to Paradox since aforementioned Divine Wind, and they always said it's simply impossible for practical reason.

 

[thesecret1]

Is CK3 worse than Gehemnisacht/Winter King were shortly following their initial release?

Shortly? IT'S BEEN TWO FUCKING YEARS!

 

[Reina]

Shortly? IT'S BEEN TWO FUCKING YEARS!

And how long it took Gehmnisnacht alone to become somewhat playable? Four, IIRC, though of course one's definition of 'playable' may vary. And it's not like Gehmnisnacht devs (team of 24 people - probably way more than work on CK3 ATM) had to worry about, I don't know, entire engine or audiovisual side.

 

[whydoibother]

Is CK3 worse than Gehemnisacht/Winter King were shortly following their initial release?

Shortly? IT'S BEEN TWO FUCKING YEARS!

Name 1 Paradox game that was good 2 years after release. Nostalgia goggles off.

 

[HeroMarine]

Is CK3 worse than Gehemnisacht/Winter King were shortly following their initial release?

Shortly? IT'S BEEN TWO FUCKING YEARS!

Name 1 Paradox game that was good 2 years after release. Nostalgia goggles off.

CK2

 

[thesecret1]

Name 1 Paradox game that was good 2 years after release. Nostalgia goggles off.

Two years after release, ck2 had Sword of Islam, Legacy of Rome, Sunset Invasion (shit), The Republic, The Old Gods, and Sons of Abraham released. And yes, by the time of Sons of Abraham, CK2 was a very solid platform for mods and had travelled a long way since release. While CK3 has... what, exactly?

 

[HeroMarine]

CK2 was great on release. I was there, these people are retards.

 

[Reina]

While CK3 has... what, exactly?

CK2 base systems+
Sword of Islam content - yes, aside from stupid decadence mechanic
Legacy of Rome content - systems yes, flavour no
The Republic content - no (republics in CK2 with this expansions were dogshit anyway, and deserve some new ideas)
Sons of Abraham content - partially
However CK3 also has
- Bulk of Conclave systems but better
- Basically entire Old Gods expansion content + more
- Refined Way of Life mechanics
- Some aspects of Holy Fury

So yes, CK3 ATM (or even at release) is content wise way more heavy than CK2 was after two years. I was actually positively surprised how much DLC stuff they crammed into the sequel, considering their history.

The problem with CK3 isn't really that there's isn't enough to do, it's that the systems and their balancing is somewhat off, and I think Paradox can't find the right vibe with them. When the game finds it's focus, it can definitely end up much better than CK2.

 

[JamesDixon]

Shortly? IT'S BEEN TWO FUCKING YEARS!

And how long it took Gehmnisnacht alone to become somewhat playable? Four, IIRC, though of course one's definition of 'playable' may vary. And it's not like Gehmnisnacht devs (team of 24 people - probably way more than work on CK3 ATM) had to worry about, I don't know, entire engine or audiovisual side.

This is a shit argument since the modders aren't paid and are doing it in their spare time. Meanwhile, Pdox is getting paid and they're a bunch lazy no good SJWs that don't know how to make a good game. You call them out on it and they ban you from their forums.

 

[thesheeep]

You call them out on it and they ban you from their forums.

As they should.
No dev should tolerate whiny asshats insulting them on their own forum.

You got places like this or Twitter for the insults.

 

[JamesDixon]

You call them out on it and they ban you from their forums.

As they should.
No dev should tolerate whiny asshats insulting them on their own forum.

You got places like this or Twitter for the insults.

Speaking of whining like an asshat...

Oh so nobody should buy their shitty games then if they don't want to hear the feedback. If you think giving constructive feedback is whining then you're a moron.

If the children that work at Pdox need a safe space from their customers then they need to leave the job and let an adult take over.

You need a Safe Space tag.

Are you retarded by choice or were you born that way?

 

[thesheeep]

Speaking of whining like an asshat...

Oh so nobody should buy their shitty games then if they don't want to hear the feedback. If you think giving constructive feedback is whining then you're a moron.

If the children that work at Pdox need a safe space from their customers then they need to leave the job and let an adult take over.

You need a Safe Space tag.

Are you retarded by choice or were you born that way?

Considering this is how you write, using just non-stop insults, why do I have a tiny amount of doubt that whatever got you banned from their forum was in fact not "giving constructive feedback"?

I'll bet you 20 bucks it was probably the exact kind of attitude you are showing here, just being an insufferable twat that any community is better off without.

I sure don't need a safe space tag, I don't give a fuck what childish insults you throw at me in this cesspool. It's to be expected.
But if we were "at my place" (not that I have one, but anyway), then yeah, you'd be addressing people with a modicum of decency or you wouldn't be addressing anyone at all.

 

[JamesDixon]

Considering this is how you write, using just non-stop insults, why do I have a tiny amount of doubt that whatever got you banned from their forum was in fact not "giving constructive feedback"?

You know nothing about what I wrote to them. I got banned off of their forums for stating that I was done with a conversation and they deemed that to be trolling. Are you usually this dense?

As for being banned on their Steam CK3 forums I wrote simply that they wouldn't do anything except ban those people that were critical of them. They only reaffirmed my statement by banning me for being critical of how they handled things.

I'll bet you 20 bucks it was probably the exact kind of attitude you are showing here, just being an insufferable twat that any community is better off without.

Pay up since I didn't have any sort of attitude. Speaking of being an insufferable twat, that's you projecting. See you attacked me moron and I replied in kind. It's a self fulfilling prophecy with you isn't it?

I sure don't need a safe space tag, I don't give a fuck what childish insults you throw at me in this cesspool. It's to be expected.

Sure you do otherwise you wouldn't have insulted me and defended the children that work for Pdox saying they needed a safe space.

If it's such a cesspool then why are you here? Oh right you're just another sewer dweller that goes around giving what you accuse others of. Hypocrisy is your name and game.

ut if we were "at my place" (not that I have one, but anyway), then yeah, you'd be addressing people with a modicum of decency or you wouldn't be addressing anyone at all.

You mean like you didn't address me with the modicum of decency?

 

[Fedora Master]

Since the game is garbo, let's talk about HPM instead.

Im not familiar with Vicky 2 but I've been playing it out of curiosity. But how do you properly westernize as an Unciv in HPM? I've seen crazy stuff like Westernized Persia in 1850 but for me it always takes ages and nothing happens.

I know about the literacy stuff and getting to 2% Intellectuals asap. Any other way to speed it up?

 

[thesheeep]

I got banned off of their forums for stating that I was done with a conversation and they deemed that to be trolling.

Is that what you are telling yourself?
Sure, I'm convinced what you wrote was not at all aggressive, very friendly and they just banned you cause they couldn't handle your "constructive criticism".

As for being banned on their Steam CK3 forums I wrote simply that they wouldn't do anything except ban those people that were critical of them. They only reaffirmed my statement by banning me for being critical of how they handled things.

In other words, you directly asked them for a ban with a statement like that - and no doubt a posting history of other niceties - and you got your ban.
I don't see the problem here.

Dear lord, you are delusional if you think you get banned on multiple forums but it's totally not your fault at all.
It's always the others' fault, isn't it?

But hey, by all means, show me your statements and I'll gladly give you a little early Christmas present if I'm wrong.
You into hentai games?

You mean like you didn't address me with the modicum of decency?

When in Rome...

If it's such a cesspool then why are you here?

In the vain hope that those who actually contribute something to the site (as in, not just post crap, but also take their wallets out or spend their time moderating) will wisen up one day, throw the trash out, close the GD bollocks and all the political stuff and turn this into an actual gaming forum as it used to be, hell, maybe even get more than a handful of devs here.
It's fine, I've got little hope, a lot of time and am mildly masochistic.

 

[JamesDixon]

I'm an idiot because I keep my imagination running wild while being the very thing I accuse others of. I'm also extremely butthurt. I need my mommy to give me my blanket, pacifier, coloring books, and bottles filled with her breast milk.

You don't say...

 

[AwesomeButton]

All Reina is saying is you should have known it's gonna be shit.