Grand Strategy Victoria 3

[Agame]

No westernization mechanic, complete borefest. And I'm not even talking about African niggers in 19th century Europe working as engineers and machinists.

Yep, its 'Baby's First Progressive Simulator' which is exactly what it was always going to be. Much like in the current build of EU4 where every country by 1800s, including places in the middle of Bum Fuck Nowhere Africa are all at tech parity, perfectly leading into Vicky 3: everyone should have the opportunity to invent all the stuff white guys invented, "muh equality". Basically Africans would have been creating lazer guns and flying cars by the 1900s if those pesky Westerners had not shown up with their Colonising and Imperialisims...

Funny to see people bringing this stuff up on the official/steam forums and getting howled down by a screaming mob as 'mustache man sympathizers'.

Game at the moment is: everything Left/Progressive = Good, everything Right/Traditional = Bad. And lets remove the idealogy and political screeching from the equation, the real problem is it just makes for a boring game. If every single country run is just inevitably go Full Liberal mode to win what is the fun of playing, where is the strategy, where is the DIVERSITY?

Why could slavery not be a legit option to use in game, balancing the tradeoffs of economy with social issues. Instead for some reason slavery is bad for your economy AND society, funny that, kinda makes one wonder why people used slavery for thousands of years (and in fact the world economy is still literally propped up by slavery in China...)

But you know, why make a game involving decisions when instead you can make 'click button, watch line go up' and also defeat the racissisisms!

 

[Reina]

Yep, its 'Baby's First Progressive Simulator' which is exactly what it was always going to be. Much like in the current build of EU4 where every country by 1800s, including places in the middle of Bum Fuck Nowhere Africa are all at tech parity, perfectly leading into Vicky 3: everyone should have the opportunity to invent all the stuff white guys invented, "muh equality". Basically Africans would have been creating lazer guns and flying cars by the 1900s if those pesky Westerners had not shown up with their Colonising and Imperialisims...

I don't know if you actually played any country in Africa, but their initial handicap + nature of technological advancement in this game means that the African nation will never catch up with the west, unless it basically bankrupts itself by building universities by dozens.

Also, in XIXth century we're not talking about advanced science and stuff. Even a relatively simple society would've been able to analyze and replicate early steam engines if they got hands on one, without a conceptual framework. It starts being iffy by XX century, but if African nation got that far as relevant power, they must have built some academic structures to propel their growth.

Game at the moment is: everything Left/Progressive = Good, everything Right/Traditional = Bad. And lets remove the idealogy and political screeching from the equation, the real problem is it just makes for a boring game. If every single country run is just inevitably go Full Liberal mode to win what is the fun of playing, where is the strategy, where is the DIVERSITY?

The problem is, that's... historical. Nations that tried to resist liberal influences either ended up as backwards shitholes or failed under weight of western soft/economic power (even relatively powerful ones like Russia). The nation that achieved the most spectacular success during the period - Japan - did so by basically shedding their entire traditional system and adapting western-liberal-style institutions.


I agree there are some liberal options- Multiculturalism in particular - are too easy to enact and maintain, they should create massive problems at least for non-American countries. But ultimately, V3 surprisingly accurately models societal trends in of the era. if you want to create strong country, you need to industrialize. If you industrialize and get wealthy, you create a large labour/intellectual interest group that starts demanding/promoting leftist policies. It's a simple, but unavoidable mechanism.

 

[Deflowerer]

No westernization mechanic, complete borefest. And I'm not even talking about African niggers in 19th century Europe working as engineers and machinists.

Yep, its 'Baby's First Progressive Simulator' which is exactly what it was always going to be. Much like in the current build of EU4 where every country by 1800s, including places in the middle of Bum Fuck Nowhere Africa are all at tech parity, perfectly leading into Vicky 3: everyone should have the opportunity to invent all the stuff white guys invented, "muh equality". Basically Africans would have been creating lazer guns and flying cars by the 1900s if those pesky Westerners had not shown up with their Colonising and Imperialisims...

Funny to see people bringing this stuff up on the official/steam forums and getting howled down by a screaming mob as 'mustache man sympathizers'.

Game at the moment is: everything Left/Progressive = Good, everything Right/Traditional = Bad. And lets remove the idealogy and political screeching from the equation, the real problem is it just makes for a boring game. If every single country run is just inevitably go Full Liberal mode to win what is the fun of playing, where is the strategy, where is the DIVERSITY?

Why could slavery not be a legit option to use in game, balancing the tradeoffs of economy with social issues. Instead for some reason slavery is bad for your economy AND society, funny that, kinda makes one wonder why people used slavery for thousands of years (and in fact the world economy is still literally propped up by slavery in China...)

But you know, why make a game involving decisions when instead you can make 'click button, watch line go up' and also defeat the racissisisms!

This is some of the dumbest shit I have recently read on Codex.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Also, in XIXth century we're not talking about advanced science and stuff. Even a relatively simple society would've been able to analyze and replicate early steam engines if they got hands on one, without a conceptual framework. It starts being iffy by XX century, but if African nation got that far as relevant power, they must have built some academic structures to propel their growth.

Are you one of the guys pictured in the "african aerospace projects" videos on yt?

 

[Sinilevä]

Also, in XIXth century we're not talking about advanced science and stuff. Even a relatively simple society would've been able to analyze and replicate early steam engines if they got hands on one, without a conceptual framework.

Sub Saharan nig-nogs couldn't even invent a wheel. What steam engines lmao

The problem is, that's... historical. Nations that tried to resist liberal influences either ended up as backwards shitholes or failed under weight of western soft/economic power (even relatively powerful ones like Russia). The nation that achieved the most spectacular success during the period - Japan - did so by basically shedding their entire traditional system and adapting western-liberal-style institutions.

Liberalism of the mid 19th century has nothing to do with modern "liberalism" and leftism. In fact it's the opposite of it.

 

[whydoibother]

Sounds pretty realistic, like Finland outside the EU.

lol you are confusing Finland with Poland. Finland gives to EU more than what it gets in return.

In government payments, maybe. Access to the big wide EU market and using its international deals for imports/exports elsewhere is a big economic boon.
If Finland had to work with just its tiny market and non existent bulk to make deals... well, there'd be worse deals. Being in a big market is very beneficial, in this game and in the real world.

 

[Hace El Oso]

Also, in XIXth century we're not talking about advanced science and stuff. Even a relatively simple society would've been able to analyze and replicate early steam engines if they got hands on one, without a conceptual framework.

How many negro African-designed and produced working locomotives have there been? It wouldn’t happen to be zero, would it?

The nation that achieved the most spectacular success during the period - Japan - did so by basically shedding their entire traditional system and adapting western-liberal-style institutions.

They ‘westernized’ to develop a way to carry their new heights of conservatism(so dizzying that the world has probably never seen them elsewhere) into the industrial, imperial era.

 

[pickmeister]

In government payments, maybe. Access to the big wide EU market and using its international deals for imports/exports elsewhere is a big economic boon.
If Finland had to work with just its tiny market and non existent bulk to make deals... well, there'd be worse deals. Being in a big market is very beneficial, in this game and in the real world.

Having your country's industry go bankrupt because of German (and other western Europe) heavily subsidized industry and dialing back the subsidies once competition evaporates to see prices of products go even higher than what you had with your own industry is truly the biggest boon.

10/10 would colonize again!

 

[whydoibother]

Having your country's industry go bankrupt because of German (and other western Europe) heavily subsidized industry and dialing back the subsidies once competition evaporates to see prices of products go even higher than what you had with your own industry is truly the biggest boon.

Oh no, I am now forced to consume cheaper and higher quality goods that some other people worked to produce! How horrible!
Anyways, I don't care. The issue with the EU comes from France doing too much protectionism specifically using your rationale. Bulgarian truckers being forced out so french truckers, who work less, for more money, don't go out of business. Forced inefficiencies, so it can be <Our Guys> being inefficient, and we can all consume domestically produced bad goods and services.

 

[Fedora Master]

I'd rather have truckers who can speak and read the local language than not, you know.

 

[whydoibother]

I'd rather have truckers who can speak and read the local language than not, you know.

What makes you think french truckers can speak the local language?

 

[HeroMarine]

Yep, its 'Baby's First Progressive Simulator' which is exactly what it was always going to be. Much like in the current build of EU4 where every country by 1800s, including places in the middle of Bum Fuck Nowhere Africa are all at tech parity, perfectly leading into Vicky 3: everyone should have the opportunity to invent all the stuff white guys invented, "muh equality". Basically Africans would have been creating lazer guns and flying cars by the 1900s if those pesky Westerners had not shown up with their Colonising and Imperialisims...

I don't know if you actually played any country in Africa, but their initial handicap + nature of technological advancement in this game means that the African nation will never catch up with the west, unless it basically bankrupts itself by building universities by dozens.

Also, in XIXth century we're not talking about advanced science and stuff. Even a relatively simple society would've been able to analyze and replicate early steam engines if they got hands on one, without a conceptual framework. It starts being iffy by XX century, but if African nation got that far as relevant power, they must have built some academic structures to propel their growth.

Game at the moment is: everything Left/Progressive = Good, everything Right/Traditional = Bad. And lets remove the idealogy and political screeching from the equation, the real problem is it just makes for a boring game. If every single country run is just inevitably go Full Liberal mode to win what is the fun of playing, where is the strategy, where is the DIVERSITY?

The problem is, that's... historical. Nations that tried to resist liberal influences either ended up as backwards shitholes or failed under weight of western soft/economic power (even relatively powerful ones like Russia). The nation that achieved the most spectacular success during the period - Japan - did so by basically shedding their entire traditional system and adapting western-liberal-style institutions.


I agree there are some liberal options- Multiculturalism in particular - are too easy to enact and maintain, they should create massive problems at least for non-American countries. But ultimately, V3 surprisingly accurately models societal trends in of the era. if you want to create strong country, you need to industrialize. If you industrialize and get wealthy, you create a large labour/intellectual interest group that starts demanding/promoting leftist policies. It's a simple, but unavoidable mechanism.

Possibly the most retarded post on this thread and that's huge considering WhyDoIBulgar regularly posts on it.

 

[pickmeister]

dialing back the subsidies once competition evaporates to see prices of products go even higher than what you had with your own industry

Oh no, I am now forced to consume cheaper and higher quality goods

This tells me you didn't read (or understand) what I wrote.

The products are cheaper only for the time to render your own industry unprofitable as consumers buy cheaper products - the foreign, subsidized ones.
And I'm not sure if you bought something in the last 5 years or so but the quality goes seriously downhill no matter the price. So that argument also goes out of the window.

Stuff used to be built to last. These days, inventors spend time making a product useless after a certain amount of time/use.

The best part is that with your own industry gone now, you have no other option than low-quality and expensive.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

I'd rather have truckers who can speak and read the local language than not, you know.

Multilingual truckers, God damn these are some very sophisticated truckers you have.

 

[Delterius]

Game at the moment is: everything Left/Progressive = Good, everything Right/Traditional = Bad.

have you played vicky 2

 

[Reina]

How many negro African-designed and produced working locomotives have there been? It wouldn’t happen to be zero, would it?

They didn't need to 'design' it, just import and analize it. You think that when f.e. Russia researches railroads in Victoria, it develops it from the scratch?

One of the main problems with technology in Victoria 2 was that newly westernized nation had to go through all earlier steps to reach the contemporary technology level. Which from historical standpoint, is bullshit. The aforementioned Japan didn't westernize by going from outdated matchloks to Dreyse rifles through XVIIIth century/Napoleonic weaponry, they outright bought guns from Prussia (and ships from Britain, and industrial goods from other countries - slowly substituting import with licenced production, then licences with some indigenous stuff) even without having a theoretical technological framework to produce it domestically.

Sub Saharan nig-nogs couldn't even invent a wheel. What steam engines lmao

Again, the technologies in game do not cover "invention", but "adaptation". Hey, Ottoman Turkey/Russia/China didn't make any breakthrough inventions in early XXth century, by that logic they should be banned from researching technologies in the game too, right? Right?

Besides, the fun of the game is to create ahistorical scenarios, including one where the African nation actually successfully industrializes. To have it hardblocked because 'niggers can't invent stuff, hyhy' would be detrimental to a gameplay and game's systems.

They ‘westernized’ to develop a way to carry their new heights of conservatism(so dizzying that the world has probably never seen them elsewhere) into the industrial, imperial era.

No. Meiji Restoration completely destroyed old institutions, including Imperial court. That's complete opposition to conservatism. In 1870s, Japan's system of government was quite liberal, very much so compared to likes of Austria or Russia. It only became (relatively) conservative as genro class refused to reform it further later on.

Liberalism of the mid 19th century has nothing to do with modern "liberalism" and leftism. In fact it's the opposite of it.

It had much to do with it, including underlying philosophy (basically, 'progress' as a key value). It just had to tackle different issues.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Note the goalposts being moved from africa to russia/china/turkey. I wonder why.

 

[Reina]

Note the goalposts being moved from africa to russia/china/turkey. I wonder why.

Christ, that's just an example. Just because we don't have an successful example of westernized African country, doesn't mean it was completely impossible. Japan is one thing, but I can picture a scenario in which Sokoto/Ethiopia achieved Siam-like position.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Note the goalposts being moved from africa to russia/china/turkey. I wonder why.

He's not moving the goalposts, but showcasing the absurdity of disabling the research of various technologies in this sort of game depending on your tag (if you'd want to be consistent about it and not just apply it to Africa due to personal biases). And if you want to talk about historical cases of modernization in Africa (and presumably you'd move the goalposts to only include Sub-Saharan Africa if someone would invoke Egypt & co.), then there's the case of Ethiopia which was modernizing just fine (and even managed to beat a European power, namely Italy).

 

[Deflowerer]

Agree that Meiji Restoration and all that followed (Taisho democracy and later fascism) was all essentially a modernist project based on progress as a key value.

Progressiveness is always the winning strategy if you are interested in dominating on a global scale. What you may view as morally repugnant does not mean it isn't objectively dominating everything. Even the quasi-succesful "non-liberal" countries like Russia and China have co-opted so much of liberalism of the past that they might as well look like degenerate librul hellholes to conservatives of their society from 50-60 years ago.

The whole fun in Vicky 3 should be anyhow to try to indeed go against the historic logic and attempt to win / persist through suboptimal routes.

 

[Seigneur Locklear]

Besides, the fun of the game is to create ahistorical scenarios

There's a clear distinction to be made from ahistorical BELIEVABLE scenarios and ahistorical UNBELIEVABLE scenarios. Horse pope with a harem of pagan concubines in CK3 might be fun for you and half the reddit, but more sober players tend to draw the line in favor of more realism.
On that note, subsaharans industrializing while lacking the most basic civilizational foundations such as HOUSING and AGRICULTURE falls in the latter category of ahistorical scenarios.

Again, the technologies in game do not cover "invention", but "adaptation"

They cover both, really. Except the fact that countries you've listed have centuries worth of nourishing innovativeness, progress and culture behind them. The nogs, abbos and such, instead, have a thousands of years worth of rich heritage of stabbing themselves with muddied, pointed sticks.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Note the goalposts being moved from africa to russia/china/turkey. I wonder why.

Christ, that's just an example. Just because we don't have an successful example of westernized African country, doesn't mean it was completely impossible. Japan is one thing, but I can picture a scenario in which Sokoto/Ethiopia achieved Siam-like position.

Hey, you just moved the goalposts again, who knew. I just quoted a very specific part of your post as it was so outlandishly stupid that I felt like it. And it did remind me of those african space program yt videos that I find hilarious, so thanks for the laugh.

 

[Reina]

On that note, subsaharans industrializing while lacking the most basic civilizational foundations such as HOUSING and AGRICULTURE falls in the latter category of ahistorical scenarios.

But not all African nations can industrialize in V3 (or rather, that are playable), just ones that developed decently organized civilizations. So basically only Sokoto, Ethiopia and states in modern Nigeria (which, by the way, way the most 'modernized' of all subsaharan states). But not random tribes in Congo or Rwanda, which certainly had no chance to develop enough in just 100 years.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Besides, the fun of the game is to create ahistorical scenarios

There's a clear distinction to be made from ahistorical BELIEVABLE scenarios and ahistorical UNBELIEVABLE scenarios.

Agreed. But the answer to that is to balance the game properly as to provide a believable experience, not to railroad it. Greater maluses for starting with a primitive economy and much more conservative IGs that would prevent AI tags like that from feasibly modernizing.

 

[Fedora Master]

We know the game is shit, no need to derail the thread.