Interview Vault Dweller interviewed about Kickstarter, calls Shadowrun Returns an "awful fucking iPhone game"

[Infinitron]

Tags: Age of Decadence; Iron Tower; Kickstarter; Vault Dweller

I usually ignore the interviews that our beloved Ubersturmfuhrer Vault Dweller seems to give to Russian RPG sites every two weeks, but this particular interview at Core-RPG.ru was too good to pass up. Check this out:

m00n1ight: There have been many accusations recently that you talk too much and do too little. In fact, during the development of the Age of Decadence many projects funded by Kickstarter were released. And their developers have also been accused that they 'all talk and no action'. Some of them started the development process much later than you. Shadowrun Returns, for example. So it turns out that some people have more trust in Kickstarter than in you and your game and it leads to:

— Vince says…
— I don't care what he's saying! He must release the game already.

Vince: Not quite. First, very few KS projects were released and they had a lot done before they went to KS. Like FTL or Conquistadors which had a playable demo before KS. Shadowrun is an exception, but:

— Shadowrun got 2 million bucks and a proper team working full time, so asking why we aren't working as fast is kinda… silly?

— Shadowrun is an awful fucking iphone game that was released on PC for some strange reasons. It has pretty backgrounds and that's about it. It's linear and painfully simple. I couldn't even finish it. Not saying that AoD is better, as such things are a matter of taste, but it's a lot more complex and this complexity is the reason it's taking so long.

I'm not asking for their trust. We released two demos. They can play and see for themselves. If after playing the demos, they still have trust issues, it's their business. If they think that KS is the answer to all their prayers, I'm happy for them.

m00n1ight: There is the same situation with Dead State now. I remember the first time I wrote about this game was very, very long ago, and almost nothing has changed since then, except the fact that they write about Dead State not as much as about AoD. You know, such impressions are not fast-formed and not made out of nowhere. I'm sure that the longer Brian will hang a leg, the more people will get angry. Especially those who have already paid for the game on Kickstarter.

Vince: He wants to release a quality RPG. As does Brian Fargo - in case you didn't notice, WL2 wasn't released in October. The promised beta wasn't released either. Project Eternity won't be released on time either. Why? Quality RPGs take time.

m00n1ight: As for the demos, I should say that many people do not consider release of the demos, arts or videos as something of importance — they wait for the game and nothing less. You might have noticed that even those full of enthusiasm avoid playing the demo and prefer to wait for the full version. And sooner or later their desire will just 'burn out'.

Vince: Demos are a proof of concept, ability, design, etc. It's the line that separates people who talk good talk from people who can deliver what they promised. I daresay we did and it is a big deal for us.

While some people prefer to wait, I'd say that most people who were interested in the game did try the demos. We cater to them, obviously.

Not sure I understand. If one truly likes RPGs, why wouldn't he want to play one, even if it was in development for 10 year? Purely out of spite?
​

Whoa. Read the rest of the interview to learn just how much VD hates Kickstarter, and why he pledges to Kickstarters despite that.

 

[Darth Roxor]

In related news, VD is surprised that a company that pitched a tablet game meant to be a spiritual successor (tm) of SNES rpg-lites has produced a tablet rpg-lite

unpossibru, stop the presses!

 

[Roguey]

My impressions of SR are much too positive than what they should have been because it ended on a high note of the last couple of areas. I'm also far more forgiving of games with no-difficulty as opposed to bullshit-difficulty. Jeff Vogel has my number.

It's funny to me how making a game as simple as that was a harrowing experience for HBS according to Weisman ("This is the most stressful game I’ve ever made, and I’ve been making games for almost 35 years now"). Role playing video games are really hard to make. What a thankless genre.

m00n1ight: What are you going to write on a memorial stone?

Vince: Not doing it. I gave the money to support the studio, not to leave my own scribbling somewhere in the game.

Looks like he and Gaider have something in common.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Vince can write though.

 

[Roguey]

So can Dave. Neither are particularly good writers.

 

[Liston]

In related news, VD is surprised that a company that pitched a tablet game meant to be a spiritual successor (tm) of SNES rpg-lites has produced a tablet rpg-lite

unpossibru, stop the presses!

Oh FFS stop with the stupid excuses. VD's answer doesn't have anything to do with expectations, surprises or disappointments. It's really simple:

Q: Why does your game take longer to develop than SRR?
A: Because SRR is, unlike my game, simple tablet game.

There is no need to sugarcote your statements by mentioning KS pitch, budget, team size and every time you want to say that SRR is just a simple tablet game that doesn't have anything going for it except for pretty graphics.

 

[Monty]

Have to love the usual tactful, politically correct answers.

 

[Infinitron]

Have to love the usual tactful, politically correct answers.

The questions are pretty combative too. Gamestar.ru, Core-rpg.ru...are all Russian gaming sites like this?

 

[Vault Dweller]

In related news, VD is surprised that a company that pitched a tablet game meant to be a spiritual successor (tm) of SNES rpg-lites has produced a tablet rpg-lite.

First, I daresay that SNES Shadowrun was a lot more complex. I even wanted to do a LP to show the difference, but didn't have time. Second, it was billed as an RPG, not RPG-lite or an iphone game. As an RPG, it leaves much to be desired. As an iphone game, it might be the best game ever, but I don't play those, so I wouldn't know.

 

[Grunker]

it was billed as an RPG

Not really correct, in the strictest sense.

My one and only reasoning for not pledging to Shadowrun Returns was that they never once during the campaign (or for a long time afterwards) explained what kind of game they wanted to make. Just vague terms. Calling something an RPG doesn't mean it is not an iphone game - you know how many definitions exist of the term just here at the Codex. The definition is stretched far more in the rest of the gaming communities. I can find you tons of simplistic bullshit on Steam, Google Play or whatever billed as "RPG".

By and large, Shadowrun got funded on the promise that they would make a game, it would have a character system, and they would call it an RPG. There were hardly any more details than that except for fluff. Just more proof that you don't sell games on Kickstarter, you sell ideas, vague concepts and most important: togetherness.

Like I said, this is why I didn't pledge.

 

[Vault Dweller]

it was billed as an RPG

Not really correct, in the strictest sense.

My one and only reasoning for not pledging to Shadowrun Returns was that they never once during the campaign (or for a long time afterwards) explained what kind of game they wanted to make. Just vague terms. Calling something an RPG doesn't mean it is not an iphone game - you know how many definitions exist of the term just here at the Codex. The definition is stretched far more in the rest of the gaming communities. I can find you tons of simplistic bullshit on Steam, Google Play or whatever billed as "RPG".

By and large, Shadowrun got funded on the promise that they would make a game, it would have a character system, and they would call it an RPG. There were hardly any more details than that except for fluff. Just more proof that you don't sell games on Kickstarter, you sell ideas, vague concepts and most important: togetherness.

Like I said, this is why I didn't pledge.

Grunker, you are like my most favorite guy to split hairs with. So, do lets.

Yes, RPG can mean many things: sandbox, story-driven, dungeon crawler, action, roguelike, etc. So, if one reviews an action RPG like DS3, one shouldn't compare it to games like KOTOR 2 or New Vegas or PST, as they are all different games following different rules. At the same the word RPG does mean something (what exactly we don't know as all attempts to figure out just what an RPG is have ended in failure), and I'm pretty sure it means more than Harebrained delivered, which is very, very disappointing.

 

[Infinitron]

Vault Dweller You expressed your lack of faith in Obsidian's budgetary honesty here:

The rule of KS - ask for a third of what you need. They asked for a mil, but a mil is nothing for a studio like Obsidian that's used to 'modest' 10-25 mil budgets. 3-4 mil is the bare minimum for them.

Shadowrun Returns is what happens when you get a third of what "you need" (in quotes because "need" depends on what sort of game you plan to make)

 

[Grunker]

and I'm pretty sure it means more than Harebrained delivered

Based on what? Take a look at Steam's RPG listings.

RPG means something to us here - and for all our debate, we have only specified a subset of roughly three categories which mix and intermingle. For the world at large, however, it means something entirely different. Shadowrun Returns is far closer to my own understanding of an RPG than most of the games that Steam or Google Play list as RPGs, for examples.

The point is that it doesn't fucking matter. There are only two things that matter for the purposes of this discussion:

1) Shadowrun Returns fails to deliver on its own ambition, whatever that may be, and that's why its bad, not because it isn't something else that you want it to be. Its systems are broken, its dialogue screen attempts to offer choice but doesn't, and its non-linear "exploration" maps offer zero exploration. It attempts to offer a wide variety of stuff, but offers only the most simplistic, boring stuff in each category. Like I've said a million times, Shadowrun with a tighter system, no exploration, a hub-based mission structure is much closer to being a good game than if the developers took it in the other direction and made it full-fledged. Again, because this is what they tried - and failed - to deliver. Had they focused on the core aspects of the game that worked: missions, infiltration, diversity of character systems, instead of trying to do a million other things as well, the game would have been much, MUCH better. And I don't care about the definition. You can call Daedalic's Blackguards whatever you want, the end result is that it looks to be a tightened - not broadened - version of Shadowrun Returns, and it will be better for it. It will have depth, because it realized its limitations and focused on its tight focus. Shadowrun did not - and failed.

2) We - as Codexers and fans of full-fledged RPGs - were disappointed that we did not get a full-fledged RPG. However, it was not promised. Again, SRR's problem Kickstarter-wise - for me - was that they were so fucking vague throughout the process that even a huge geek like me, following every bit of news, had no fucking clue what this game was going to be like.

 

[Koschey]

Yes, unfortunately they only ever said RPG. But who was the guy saying it? I did pledge, because I thought "Hey, it's Weisman, the guy behind Shadowrun AND Earthdawn! If he says RPG, he means RPG, not casual puzzler with stats or some shit". As we see, that worked out fine!
Pretty disappointed that SRR ended up on the wrong side of the SNES and Genesis game regarding linearity/complexity. Especially when they said doing the legwork would be part of the gameplay, I imagined more than following a line to the next plot coupon, like searching for clues or contacts on my own. Stupid me.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Vault Dweller You expressed your lack of faith in Obsidian's budgetary honesty here:

The rule of KS - ask for a third of what you need. They asked for a mil, but a mil is nothing for a studio like Obsidian that's used to 'modest' 10-25 mil budgets. 3-4 mil is the bare minimum for them.

Shadowrun Returns is what happens when you get a third of what "you need" (in quotes because "need" depends on what sort of game you plan to make)

As I said in that thread, it's quite possible that Shadowrun is what an RPG on a short schedule and small budget (under 2 mil) looks like. The question is, did WL2 and PE get enough time and money?

 

[Grunker]

The question is, did WL2 and PE get enough time and money?

And so your theory is completely unfalsifiable. WL2 and PE succeed: they 3-4 mil + their time is exactly enough time and money. WL2 and PE fail: 3-4 mil + their time is not enough time and money. Regardless, your claim is that either result will "prove your theory right."

There could be other reasons for success and failure, you know?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Its systems are broken, its dialogue screen attempts to offer choice but doesn't, and its non-linear "exploration" maps offer zero exploration. It attempts to offer a wide variety of stuff, but offers only the most simplistic, boring stuff in each category.

Which is what makes it an awful fucking RPG, hence the splitting hairs comment.

 

[Grunker]

Its systems are broken, its dialogue screen attempts to offer choice but doesn't, and its non-linear "exploration" maps offer zero exploration. It attempts to offer a wide variety of stuff, but offers only the most simplistic, boring stuff in each category.

Which is what makes it an awful fucking RPG, hence the splitting hairs comment.

No, that's bullshit. I provided Daedalic's Blackguards as an example. That game has none of these things, it focuses on its tight, narrow concept. And though it might be shit, it is not shit by definition as you seem to claim.

If your only claim is "well it might be awesome, but it is shit as an RPG!" then your claim is pretty worthless to a discussion. Then you're just looking at an awfully cute kitten and saying: "DAMN, THAT IS ONE FUGLY DOG LOL"

Shadowrun is shit because it fails at the things it tries to do, not because it fails to live up to the arbitrary standards of your definition.

 

[dibens]

WL2 and PE are made by grizzled industry veterans. Any faults the games may have will be entirely on them- of all the developers they should know full well what exactly they can and can't do with the resources they're given.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The question is, did WL2 and PE get enough time and money?

And so your theory is completely unfalsifiable. WL2 and PE succeed: they 3-4 mil + their time is exactly enough time and money. WL2 and PE fail: 3-4 mil + their time is not enough time and money. Regardless, your claim is that either result will "prove your theory right."

I'm not trying to come up with unfalsifiable theory. I want these games to be awesome because I'm an RPG nut. I'd rather to be wrong about everything but have great games to play in the near future, then be right.

You know that I believe that quality RPGs takes 2.5-3.5 years to make. I don't think that 1.5 years is enough. WL2 has been delayed, which is good, but we don't know for how long. The video didn't look very promising, but let's hope it's just a poorly chosen area.

 

[Grunker]

You know that I believe that quality RPGs takes 2.5-3.5 years to make. I don't think that 1.5 years is enough.

I don't disagree with your time scale (though I do with your money), I'm just saying that your overall "theory of time and money" can't be proven right or wrong, so it is what it is

 

[Vault Dweller]

WL2 and PE are made by grizzled industry veterans. Any faults the games may have will be entirely on them- of all the developers they should know full well what exactly they can and can't do with the resources they're given.

The problem is KS and the way it works. They had to promise a year and half schedule and they had to throw in anything but the kitchen sink as stretch goals to squeeze more money. Obsidian promised a large city, a stronghold, and a 15-level dungeon to get to 4 mil. Can they deliver it all and within a reasonable timeframe (I don't think they can afford to take 3 years) without sacrificing quality? Remains to be seen.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

I've said it for a long time, Kickstarter is not enough money for middle sized games, or even substantial lite sized ones. The economics simply don't add up.

 

[Infinitron]

WL2 and PE are made by grizzled industry veterans. Any faults the games may have will be entirely on them- of all the developers they should know full well what exactly they can and can't do with the resources they're given.

The problem is KS and the way it works. They had to promise a year and half schedule and they had to throw in anything but the kitchen sink as stretch goals to squeeze more money. Obsidian promised a large city, a stronghold, and a 15-level dungeon to get to 4 mil. Can they deliver it all and within a reasonable timeframe (I don't think they can afford to take 3 years) without sacrificing quality? Remains to be seen.

Ahem, two large cities.

So, the Canonical Vault Dweller RPG Development Time goes all the way up to 3.5 years now? Life is just getting harder and harder!

 

[hiver]

Whats the fuss? Someone asking questions and someone actually answering them? No hype slimy questions to see? Nothing wrong with the interview. Seems just ok to me.