World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 - VTMB sequel from The Chinese Room - coming early 2025

[Storyfag]

evil pharmaceutical corporations that cut up magical creatures for parts

Pentex

 

[Zombra]

What's most surprising is that nobody else has tried capitalizing on that failure and alienation to steal their market share.

I mean. Vampyr, Bloodlust Shadowhunter, Swansong, and pretty much every first-person RPG or imsim in some way have all tried to tap in to it somewhere. It's not like "nobody" has taken a shot.

 

[Harthwain]

I just don't get VtmB 2 from a marketing / brand perspective. Literally nobody who is a fan of the first game is going to like this game, so why call it VtmB 2? People who are not familiar with the first game wouldn't care even if this game was called Legend Phyre the Amenian Vampire, whereas I think calling it a sequel is just going to rile up the fans of the old game and create negative word of mouth around the game.

Because it started as Mitsoda's attempt to create a sequel to Bloodlines (and Bloodlines is recognizable)? It is not that complicated.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

Now it occurred to me that if Paradox weren't such a stupid company, instead of paying millions for the World of Darkness license and then more for the sequel to Bloodlines, a game around which huge expectations had arisen, they could have bought their Swedish Kult license cheaply from the other Paradox and made it smaller, a more experimental RPG. They would immediately check whether they are suitable for the RPG market, which is completely different from the strategy market.

But that's too reasonable.

 

[Vincente]

You can't make a faithful Kult game for mainstream because it's actually edgy.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

You can't make a faithful Kult game for mainstream because it's actually edgy.

It is a shame, but Kult had recently new edition, less edgy, I belive.

 

[scytheavatar]

I just don't get VtmB 2 from a marketing / brand perspective. Literally nobody who is a fan of the first game is going to like this game, so why call it VtmB 2? People who are not familiar with the first game wouldn't care even if this game was called Legend Phyre the Amenian Vampire, whereas I think calling it a sequel is just going to rile up the fans of the old game and create negative word of mouth around the game.

More like literally nobody is going to like this game. Period. "Old fans" are the least of the problems for TCR/Paradox.

 

[taxalot]

https://www.pcgamer.com/games/rpg/p...ul-bloodlines-3-will-be-done-by-someone-else/

Paradox wants to get out of the RPG business: 'If Bloodlines 2, God willing, is successful, Bloodlines 3 [will be] done by someone else'​

It's time for someone else to shoulder the World of Darkness curse.

(Image credit: Paradox Interactive)

It's been nearly a decade since Paradox Interactive acquired White Wolf and the World of Darkness, and nearly as long since it started working with Hard Suit Labs based on its pitch for Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2. And boy has it been a rough time.

After four years working in secret, Hard Suit and Paradox announced Bloodlines 2 in 2019. We'd be playing it in 2020, the pair said. Then it was delayed. And delayed again. The 2020 target became 2021, and then it was delayed indefinitely, with Hard Suit given the boot.

For a while, it seemed like cancellation was inevitable. And it did almost end up in the bin. "If we hadn't found The Chinese Room," deputy CEO Mattias Lilja tells me, "and seen what they'd done with the early work, [cancellation] would have been the next logical step, because we could not continue as we did."

Lilja believes it's in a better place now—though it was recently struck with yet another delay, pushing it out of 2024 and into the first half of 2025. "It's been in development a very long time, but we are starting to see the game shape up to be something we can… we think it will be a World of Darkness experience."

It's strangely tepid praise, but also refreshing. The reason for this interview was not the usual marketing-driven fare. No big announcements. No hype. Just a rather frank explanation about what's going on at Paradox, the reasons why it's been struggling recently, and what it's doing to change its fortunes. But even with that in mind, there seems to be a bit of nervousness about how Bloodlines 2 will ultimately be received. And it's not something that Paradox wants to go through again.

"It is not in our strategic direction to make this kind of game," Lilja says. "So if Bloodlines 2, God willing, is successful, Bloodlines 3 [will be] done by someone else, on the licence from us. I would say it's the sort of strategic way this would work. So it's still an outlier from what we're supposed to do, we don't know that stuff, so we should probably let other people do it."

Paradox has its own small-scale experimental label, Paradox Arc, where it can try different things, but a big RPG doesn't remotely fit that. It would have to be something "very different", says Lilja, like a CRPG, but even that's a "big investment", and nowadays expectations are higher than ever thanks to Baldur's Gate 3. So "regardless of outcome," he says, Bloodlines is a "dead end".

As for the future of Bloodlines 2, specifically: "We don't drop games. We make sure they work. We make sure they fulfil the promise that they have. The rest is very much up to the players." So you can expect the usual slate of updates and fixes, but DLC? I wouldn't hold your breath.

"I think some studios do strategic investments, long term things, because they feel that the cost of not doing it is too high. But, I mean, I think it's fairly clear, at least to me, and I think to you, even in the best of cases, Bloodlines does not have a super long shelf life. That's not the way these games behave. You have an influx of players, there's a bit of word of mouth, and they have a high peak, and then they trail off. And it's not the type of gameplay that develops over time that much. So I think that's part of why these types of games are not really that attractive to us."

Yet it was the persistence of Bloodlines' fans that inspired this sequel, 20 years after the original. Better supported RPGs, meanwhile, can keep going year after year, as evidenced by the incredibly long life of Bethesda RPGs. And then there's Baldur's Gate—a 26-year-old series that's just spawned its third game, which in turn has been one of Steam's most played games for over a year, despite the lack of DLC. Some RPGs have an incredibly long tail. But it is clear they aren't in Paradox's wheelhouse, and passing the licence to other caretakers might be the smart call here.

Editor has already given up.

Good luck to Chinese Room.

 

[Skinwalker]

CANCEL THIS SHIT ALREADY

 

[Vulpes]

Oh God, I haven't laughed so hard in ages. By far the funniest article I've read on this site all year. I hope this means they're considering selling the WoD franchise, because they've done nothing but mismanage it horribly. Seriously who the fuck thought that having some Californian and Norwegian libshits write the books was a smart idea? All they had to do was contract Onyx Path to work on the new edition and that's it. No reason to get anyone else involved.

 

[Tyranicon]

So "regardless of outcome," he says, Bloodlines is a "dead end".

Wow. You usually say shit like this after the game has come out and already made all the money it would've. I guess no amount of reasonable profit is going to make up for the development hell VtMB2 has been through.

Can't knock the guy for being honest through.

 

[Hell Swarm]

World of darkness isn't even hard to make games in.

 

[Lord_Potato]

So "regardless of outcome," he says, Bloodlines is a "dead end".

Wow. You usually say shit like this after the game has come out and already made all the money it would've. I guess no amount of reasonable profit is going to make up for the development hell VtMB2 has been through.

Can't knock the guy for being honest through.

Be glad, they are leaving the entire vampire niche to you!

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I wouldn't mind an isometric VtM game done by Owlcat.

 

[ind33d]

World of darkness isn't even hard to make games in.

no shit, there's a whole section about it in libraries called "nonfiction"

 

[Child of Malkav]

Jesus Christ, the situation is dire if they allow for such articles to see the light of day. They just gave up and admitted it.

 

[Pink Eye]

https://www.pcgamer.com/games/rpg/p...ul-bloodlines-3-will-be-done-by-someone-else/

Paradox wants to get out of the RPG business: 'If Bloodlines 2, God willing, is successful, Bloodlines 3 [will be] done by someone else'​

News
By Fraser Brown
published 2 hours ago
It's time for someone else to shoulder the World of Darkness curse.

(Image credit: Paradox Interactive)

It's been nearly a decade since Paradox Interactive acquired White Wolf and the World of Darkness, and nearly as long since it started working with Hard Suit Labs based on its pitch for Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2. And boy has it been a rough time.
After four years working in secret, Hard Suit and Paradox announced Bloodlines 2 in 2019. We'd be playing it in 2020, the pair said. Then it was delayed. And delayed again. The 2020 target became 2021, and then it was delayed indefinitely, with Hard Suit given the boot.

For a while, it seemed like cancellation was inevitable. And it did almost end up in the bin. "If we hadn't found The Chinese Room," deputy CEO Mattias Lilja tells me, "and seen what they'd done with the early work, [cancellation] would have been the next logical step, because we could not continue as we did."
Lilja believes it's in a better place now—though it was recently struck with yet another delay, pushing it out of 2024 and into the first half of 2025. "It's been in development a very long time, but we are starting to see the game shape up to be something we can… we think it will be a World of Darkness experience."
It's strangely tepid praise, but also refreshing. The reason for this interview was not the usual marketing-driven fare. No big announcements. No hype. Just a rather frank explanation about what's going on at Paradox, the reasons why it's been struggling recently, and what it's doing to change its fortunes. But even with that in mind, there seems to be a bit of nervousness about how Bloodlines 2 will ultimately be received. And it's not something that Paradox wants to go through again.
"It is not in our strategic direction to make this kind of game," Lilja says. "So if Bloodlines 2, God willing, is successful, Bloodlines 3 [will be] done by someone else, on the licence from us. I would say it's the sort of strategic way this would work. So it's still an outlier from what we're supposed to do, we don't know that stuff, so we should probably let other people do it."
Paradox has its own small-scale experimental label, Paradox Arc, where it can try different things, but a big RPG doesn't remotely fit that. It would have to be something "very different", says Lilja, like a CRPG, but even that's a "big investment", and nowadays expectations are higher than ever thanks to Baldur's Gate 3. So "regardless of outcome," he says, Bloodlines is a "dead end".

​

As for the future of Bloodlines 2, specifically: "We don't drop games. We make sure they work. We make sure they fulfil the promise that they have. The rest is very much up to the players." So you can expect the usual slate of updates and fixes, but DLC? I wouldn't hold your breath.

"I think some studios do strategic investments, long term things, because they feel that the cost of not doing it is too high. But, I mean, I think it's fairly clear, at least to me, and I think to you, even in the best of cases, Bloodlines does not have a super long shelf life. That's not the way these games behave. You have an influx of players, there's a bit of word of mouth, and they have a high peak, and then they trail off. And it's not the type of gameplay that develops over time that much. So I think that's part of why these types of games are not really that attractive to us."

Yet it was the persistence of Bloodlines' fans that inspired this sequel, 20 years after the original. Better supported RPGs, meanwhile, can keep going year after year, as evidenced by the incredibly long life of Bethesda RPGs. And then there's Baldur's Gate—a 26-year-old series that's just spawned its third game, which in turn has been one of Steam's most played games for over a year, despite the lack of DLC. Some RPGs have an incredibly long tail. But it is clear they aren't in Paradox's wheelhouse, and passing the licence to other caretakers might be the smart call here.

Editor has already given up.

Good luck to Chinese Room.

What a load of bologna! Why'd they drop Chris Avellone from the project, dude is a fuckin' golden goose who shits out eggs of gold. They should kept him on the project. Brain and his tranny whore can go fuck themselves sideways in twenty two different ways though. Chris should have remained on the project either as a lead or as a consultant.

 

[Caim]

Seriously who the fuck thought that having some Californian and Norwegian libshits write the books was a smart idea? All they had to do was contract Onyx Path to work on the new edition and that's it.

You have a very optimistic opinion on the kind of people Onyx Path employs.

So "regardless of outcome," he says, Bloodlines is a "dead end".

Wow. You usually say shit like this after the game has come out and already made all the money it would've. I guess no amount of reasonable profit is going to make up for the development hell VtMB2 has been through.

Can't knock the guy for being honest through.

Or it's just a vampire pun.

 

[Vincente]

If Bloodlines 2, God willing, is successful, Bloodlines 3 [will be] done by someone else.

Paradox aren't making Bloodlines 2 anyway, they're publishing it and it's made by Sumo. Made a sick clickbait though.

 

[Fedora Master]

I wouldn't mind an isometric VtM game done by Owlcat.

I mean, fuck, that's a Monkey's Paw wish if I ever saw one.
Owlscat are gonna use Redemption, not Masquerade, and it'd be a fag fest worse than your average Pride Parade in California.

 

[Tao]

So "regardless of outcome," he says, Bloodlines is a "dead end".

Wow. You usually say shit like this after the game has come out and already made all the money it would've. I guess no amount of reasonable profit is going to make up for the development hell VtMB2 has been through.

Can't knock the guy for being honest through.

With a bit of luck you could purchase the IP for your vampire game. Hell, they could even just give it you for free at that point xD

 

[The President]

I respect the honesty that they admit they don’t know what the fuck they’re doing with RPGs, but I’m surprised they let this go public.

The clarification that they’ll let an outside studio do a potential BL3 isn’t exactly news as that’s what they did with BL2.

 

[jackofshadows]

Well that's if BL2 will be success but it obviously won't so BL3 talk is moot.

 

[Vincente]

The clarification that they’ll let an outside studio do a potential BL3 isn’t exactly news as that’s what they did with BL2.

Exactly, so far they rented the World of Darkness IP to other studios including Bloodlines 2.

 

[Wesp5]

Maybe they regret meddling with the RPG studios they employed now...