World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 - VTMB sequel from The Chinese Room - coming early 2025

[Delterius]

So, you're telling me that Baldurs Gate 3 or Cyberpunk 2077 also have character sheets like from the tabletop RPGs of the same name, right? Right?

No. I am telling you that both Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines and Vampire the Masquerade (PnP) both have character sheets in terms of character creation, so trying to blame Bloodlines for "couldn't actually create a character, only allocate points in the character sheet" is a pretty dumb argument. If you want to use it, then Vampire the Masquerade: Redemption is a much better candidate as it does not allow you to create your own character at all (his name, gender or even his clan are story-bound).

The fundamental issue is about ownership.

It's easy to feel a sense of ownership of the Bloodlines protagonist because they are silent. You name them and you interprete everything they say with your mind's eye. Sure, if we had the ability to customize their appearance then that ownership would have been enhanced, but it's still there.

With Bloodlines 2 we have lost that sense of ownership over and over. First we would play a thinblood. Then we'd play an Elder. Now we get to play a Phyre. The named, voiced protagonist does a lot to dissociate us from the character. The idea is founded on customization not as an enhancement, but in place of ownership. So people want to be able to have their Phyre be male, to be able to change their Phyre's haircut, and some even dream of changing their Phyre's face. Edit: interesting to note that all of these customizations were the bare minimum expected in Mitsoda's Bloodlines, now the handful of optimists left are grasping for them like they are lost in the desert and in need of water.

I suspect the devs and the execs themselves think this is a very minor difference - and that they are just making things objectively better by adding a well defined protagonist. But from my point of view (and from what I've seen from other people) this change from CRPG to a Mass Effect inspired opera might be a dealbreaker for way too many customers.

Personally, I have a lot of tolerance for jank when it comes to a Bloodlines 2. I don't mind the premise for the game either. I wouldn't even mind if the character sheet turned into a skill tree. But I removed the game from my wishlist the moment they changed the nature of the protagonist. That's the biggest genre shift they could have done. I would have sooner bought a janky mess in place of this.

 

[Roguey]

Modern game development is about doing as little work as possible. None of them want any extra reactivity, that just means more work.
The rare couple of guys that care about this stuff are pushing shit uphill just to keep their games above the bare minimum quality line.

The entire concept of meaningful content that players may miss is a relic of the past. Time wasted. Scope creep.

Of course the outcomes of these conversations have to be the same.

C&C has become flavor text, nothing more.

They have neither the time nor the experience to do this well.

Additionally "C&C is just flavor text" applies just as hard to the original Bloodlines. Everyone experiences the same story beats.

 

[jackofshadows]

I would be fine if at least the fixed prot would've been your know, somewhat relatable. This tranny isn't relatable at all to me. And something tells me that the "male" option will be even worse.

 

[sosmoflux]

Modern game development is about doing as little work as possible. None of them want any extra reactivity, that just means more work.
The rare couple of guys that care about this stuff are pushing shit uphill just to keep their games above the bare minimum quality line.

The entire concept of meaningful content that players may miss is a relic of the past. Time wasted. Scope creep.

Of course the outcomes of these conversations have to be the same.

C&C has become flavor text, nothing more.

They have neither the time nor the experience to do this well.

Additionally "C&C is just flavor text" applies just as hard to the original Bloodlines. Everyone experiences the same story beats.

Heather? Different apartments? Missing entire missions/areas/characters, like the Asian vampire in the first town? Several NPC's you can kill or let live? Several quests you fail to reveal the true cause of? Wesp5 help me out here.

 

[Harthwain]

The fundamental issue is about ownership.

Part of it is about ownership, but you could have a fixed (and even voiced) protagonist had said protagonist been interesting or the game offered enough freedom of choice to compensate for the lack of customization of the character the player is playing as. Having three options, and vague ones at that, is simply not enough to do the heavy lifting required.

 

[Roguey]

Heather?

Get the best armor of the game and a cutscene where she dies, or she just vanishes altogether. This isn't really big. Letting her go is LARPing, but that works, because doing the right thing shouldn't mean getting a reward.

Different apartments?

This is absolutely cosmetic.

Missing entire missions/areas/characters, like the Asian vampire in the first town?

Skipping sidequests isn't exactly C&C.

Several NPC's you can kill or let live?

Bioware also does this quite often. It's role-playing but it doesn't significantly alter the story.

 

[sosmoflux]

Ok so we're far beyond the game being identical besides inconsequential flavor text, which BL2 will be, so you're wrong and I'm right, cheers to that.

 

[user]

Modern game development is about doing as little work as possible. None of them want any extra reactivity, that just means more work.
The rare couple of guys that care about this stuff are pushing shit uphill just to keep their games above the bare minimum quality line.

The entire concept of meaningful content that players may miss is a relic of the past. Time wasted. Scope creep.

Of course the outcomes of these conversations have to be the same.

C&C has become flavor text, nothing more.

They have neither the time nor the experience to do this well.

Additionally "C&C is just flavor text" applies just as hard to the original Bloodlines. Everyone experiences the same story beats.

You mean that I would get that watch even if I hadn't raised my intimidation...?

nooooooooo

 

[Roguey]

Ok so we're far beyond the game being identical besides inconsequential flavor text, which BL2 will be, so you're wrong and I'm right, cheers to that.

You're comparing an entire released game to one showcase of a main quest. Tell me about the "different outcomes" in Grout's Mansion.

 

[jackofshadows]

There was also that ghoul guns dealer. Either kill or use him for the entire game. And that goth mama quest, similar deal.

 

[Delterius]

The fundamental issue is about ownership.

Part of it is about ownership, but you could have a fixed (and even voiced) protagonist had said protagonist been interesting or the game offered enough freedom of choice to compensate for the lack of customization of the character the player is playing as. Having three options, and vague ones at that, is simply not enough to do the heavy lifting required.

On one hand, I don't totally agree on the bolded part. The initial pre-orders and the built-in audience from Bloodlines 1 to Bloodlines 2's first announcement has a specific set of expectations. And I'm willing to bet those expectations are dashed by having a protagonist that is this defined. Games like Witcher and Cyberpunk 2077 have their audiences. I myself bought the Witcher 3 for around 3 dollars to play the Hearts of Stone DLC (and nothing else). At the end of the day a Shepard/Geralt type of character is the opposite of why I followed this game in the first place.

That said I do agree with the general feeling that 'things could have been done better given what they are'. I myself wrote a lot about how playing 'an Elder' could be implemented in an interesting way. I do feel that people get lost on very specific arguments about this plotline, this premise and so on, and lose themselves to the forest while missing the trees.

It's like the initial discussions about starting as a Thinblood. There were a few who felt that sucked out of the gate. But I'd bet that some people ITT can come up with ways in which that is interesting. Case in point people speculated extreme scenarios (war, really) in which your thinblood self might be 'permitted' to commit diablerie. Or at the very least that the Prince might be willing to let bygones be bygones depending on the situation - which is not unheard of even in The Lore TM.

 

[sosmoflux]

You're comparing an entire released game to one showcase of a main quest.

I'm comparing a game lovingly made in 2004 by cool nerds to a game listlessly made in 2024 by poseurs.

 

[Harthwain]

On one hand, I don't totally agree on the bolded part. The initial pre-orders and the built-in audience from Bloodlines 1 to Bloodlines 2's first announcement has a specific set of expectations.

Honestly, I don't know. I am drawing my conclusions from the fact that games such as Mass Effect, Gothic, Planescape: Torment, Disco Elysium, etc. have fixed protagonists and it didn't stop people from playing them or saying they are great RPGs. I could be wrong though when it comes to Vampire the Masquerade crowd, but Redemption also had a fixed and voiced protagonist. Did people hate it?

 

[user]

Ok so we're far beyond the game being identical besides inconsequential flavor text, which BL2 will be, so you're wrong and I'm right, cheers to that.

You're comparing an entire released game to one showcase of a main quest. Tell me about the "different outcomes" in Grout's Mansion.

And you are comparing a 20 year old game where they could barely scrap the level together in the engine they used.
It's not like one would expect branching storylines and x2 extra voicelines or different hubs.

These are what we would be expecting from a modern game though.

These are great but I don't agree that all the rest are flavor... There is a huge difference, at least for me, of a choice that just changes the form of one sentence slightly and that's it, compared to something that does that and gives you even a measly useless item, or creates a very small change in the environment, because you chose to raise that persuasion stat a bit. What we saw in the demo isn't even that - his response to the intimidation tactic seemed made to fit with every tone the player would use.

You may be right - we only saw a (main) quest, but if they choose to showcase that, is there any reason or prior learning experience that garners optimism?

 

[Roguey]

These are what we would be expecting from a modern game though.

Why would you?

Game dev, spec. AAA game dev, is much harder / more complicated now than it was ~20 years ago.

I’m making a small game now but I work w/ and talk to people making AA and AAA. It’s changed enormously.

Can people stop talking out of their asses for a second on this dumb site

Making a AA game now is comparable to making a AAA game 10 years ago - and it’s *still* harder and more complicated.

If your contribution to the discussion is to disagree without recalling your own dev experience or the testimonials of other devs contradicting what I’m saying, contemplate if this is a) smart b) incredibly dumb.

It's a self-inflicted problem, but a problem nonetheless. And even without it, I wouldn't expect much from a group of people who have never worked together before making a game from scratch in a genre most of them have never worked in before with a strict schedule.

 

[user]

These are what we would be expecting from a modern game though.

Why would you?

Game dev, spec. AAA game dev, is much harder / more complicated now than it was ~20 years ago.

I’m making a small game now but I work w/ and talk to people making AA and AAA. It’s changed enormously.

Can people stop talking out of their asses for a second on this dumb site

Making a AA game now is comparable to making a AAA game 10 years ago - and it’s *still* harder and more complicated.

If your contribution to the discussion is to disagree without recalling your own dev experience or the testimonials of other devs contradicting what I’m saying, contemplate if this is a) smart b) incredibly dumb.

It's a self-inflicted problem, but a problem nonetheless. And even without it, I wouldn't expect much from a group of people who have never worked together before making a game from scratch in a genre most of them have never worked in before with a strict schedule.

Uhhh.. I wouldn't, not really. It's mostly wishful thinking to be honest. At least not from a cinematic, high quality/budget game (meaning high end tech, perfect polish, animations, infinit-esque polygons, pubic nvidia flowing hair technology and whatnot).
BG3 was a pleasant surprise and even if I have my qualms with it, I take my hat off to Swen for combining both what a decent rpg is and what the mainstream expects.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

Modern game development is about doing as little work as possible. None of them want any extra reactivity, that just means more work.
The rare couple of guys that care about this stuff are pushing shit uphill just to keep their games above the bare minimum quality line.

The entire concept of meaningful content that players may miss is a relic of the past. Time wasted. Scope creep.

Of course the outcomes of these conversations have to be the same.

C&C has become flavor text, nothing more.

They have neither the time nor the experience to do this well.

Additionally "C&C is just flavor text" applies just as hard to the original Bloodlines. Everyone experiences the same story beats.

You mean that I would get that watch even if I hadn't raised my intimidation...?

nooooooooo

Perhaps this is a symbolic scene - developers from Chinese Room being questioned by a producer from Paradox. They pretend to be submissive, but all they want to do is scream.

 

[Delterius]

On one hand, I don't totally agree on the bolded part. The initial pre-orders and the built-in audience from Bloodlines 1 to Bloodlines 2's first announcement has a specific set of expectations.

Honestly, I don't know. I am drawing my conclusions from the fact that games such as Mass Effect, Gothic, Planescape: Torment, Disco Elysium, etc. have fixed protagonists and it didn't stop people from playing them or saying they are great RPGs. I could be wrong though when it comes to Vampire the Masquerade crowd, but Redemption also had a fixed and voiced protagonist. Did people hate it?

I'm not denying that either. What I'm saying is that a person can like both Mass Effect and Bloodlines, and feel that Bloodlines 2 is a disappointment because it turns the franchise into the former. These are two valid but very different experiences. I see normies online making unfavorable comparisons to Mass Effect and Cyberpunk because of that point. It is ultimately a calculated risk when you swap subgenres.

In theory this new Bloodlines 2 has wide market appeal. In practice, I feel that TCR and Paradox aren't willing to throw Cyberpunk or even Mass Effect amounts of money at it. Especially given the premium price of setting up a new studio from scratch. The Bloodlines 1 fans were willing to tolerate ungodly amounts of jank, and so if that group is alienated then it would be like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

 

[Roguey]

In theory this new Bloodlines 2 has wide market appeal. In practice, I feel that TCR and Paradox aren't willing to throw Cyberpunk or even Mass Effect amounts of money at it. Especially given the premium price of setting up a new studio from scratch. The Bloodlines 1 fans were willing to tolerate ungodly amounts of jank, and so if that group is alienated then it would be like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Like I wrote the dumbfucks at Paradox should know what kind of reception they're going to get with the kind of game they're making. They're letting the name "Bloodlines" do all the heavy lifting to get a different outcome and it's going to blow up in their face.

 

[Harthwain]

Game dev, spec. AAA game dev, is much harder / more complicated now than it was ~20 years ago.

I’m making a small game now but I work w/ and talk to people making AA and AAA. It’s changed enormously.

Can people stop talking out of their asses for a second on this dumb site

Making a AA game now is comparable to making a AAA game 10 years ago - and it’s *still* harder and more complicated.

If your contribution to the discussion is to disagree without recalling your own dev experience or the testimonials of other devs contradicting what I’m saying, contemplate if this is a) smart b) incredibly dumb.

It's a self-inflicted problem, but a problem nonetheless. And even without it, I wouldn't expect much from a group of people who have never worked together before making a game from scratch in a genre most of them have never worked in before with a strict schedule.

I don't agree with Sawyer here. I mean, sure, it probably is harder to do a "serious" (AA or AAA) project. But you can be 3-man small indie and come up with a pretty good game (Battle Brothers, for example). As you yourself have said, part of the problem is a self-inflicted wound. If you are doing narrative-driven game, then obviously you are bound to have to do more work, because someone has to type in all the words and choices. This is less of a problem if you do a more systemic approach. Same goes for the visuals: it is more work to do everything in 3D and then implement it into the game, than it is to do the same with quality 2D.

I'm not denying that either. What I'm saying is that a person can like both Mass Effect and Bloodlines, and feel that Bloodlines 2 is a disappointment because it turns the franchise into the former.

You mean that Bloodlines 2 betrays fans of Bloodlines 1 by removing the ability to create your own character? I can agree with that view. Although I am unsure about how many people would actually consider it to be a deal-breaker and for how many it would be "It sucks, but it's still Bloodlines, right?" had the game been on the level they'd expect of it.

That said, Baldur's Gate 3 is a good example of a game that is very different from the former games of the franchise and it was a massive success.

In theory this new Bloodlines 2 has wide market appeal.

Honestly? I think that a decent vampire game would have wide market appeal even without having a brand behind it. There aren't many decent vampire-themed games out there. But it requires investment to do that and good handling of the project itself.

 

[Roguey]

I don't agree with Sawyer here. I mean, sure, it probably is harder to do a "serious" (AA or AAA) project. But you can be 3-man small indie and come up with a pretty good game (Battle Brothers, for example).

He didn't say it was harder to do garage-dev or A games, so you're not really disagreeing with him.

 

[Conan]

I don't agree with Sawyer here. I mean, sure, it probably is harder to do a "serious" (AA or AAA) project. But you can be 3-man small indie and come up with a pretty good game (Battle Brothers, for example).

He didn't say it was harder to do garage-dev or A games, so you're not really disagreeing with him.

Game dev, spec. AAA game dev, is much harder / more complicated now than it was ~20 years ago.

I’m making a small game now but I work w/ and talk to people making AA and AAA. It’s changed enormously.

Can people stop talking out of their asses for a second on this dumb site

Making a AA game now is comparable to making a AAA game 10 years ago - and it’s *still* harder and more complicated.

But remember this is soyyer we are talking about and his chief skill is incompetence.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

I don't agree with Sawyer here. I mean, sure, it probably is harder to do a "serious" (AA or AAA) project. But you can be 3-man small indie and come up with a pretty good game (Battle Brothers, for example).

He didn't say it was harder to do garage-dev or A games, so you're not really disagreeing with him.

Game dev, spec. AAA game dev, is much harder / more complicated now than it was ~20 years ago.

I’m making a small game now but I work w/ and talk to people making AA and AAA. It’s changed enormously.

Can people stop talking out of their asses for a second on this dumb site

Making a AA game now is comparable to making a AAA game 10 years ago - and it’s *still* harder and more complicated.

But remember this is soyyer we are talking about and his chief skill is incompetence.

Are you Feargus Urquhart? You sound like him.

 

[Roguey]

But remember this is soyyer we are talking about and his chief skill is incompetence.

He's one of the people at Obsidian who can actually get things done. And it's true that bloated engines and middleware and graphical expectations have made things more difficult in the AA/AAA space.

 

[Delterius]

You mean that Bloodlines 2 betrays fans of Bloodlines 1 by removing the ability to create your own character? I can agree with that view. Although I am unsure about how many people would actually consider it to be a deal-breaker and for how many it would be "It sucks, but it's still Bloodlines, right?" had the game been on the level they'd expect of it.

It would be very difficult to compile all the reasons why people enjoyed Bloodlines. We can ascertain the aspects in which the game excel, and where the game fails utterly. The game's aesthetic and ambience are perfect, the play with lights and shadows is excellent. The combat is mediocre to terrible. But that's different from asking people what they particularly enjoyed about the game. It can range from 'oh, I like urban fantasy and there aren't a lot of RPGs like that' (which is my case) to 'oh, I liked drinking mortals dead with celerity' (also my case).

What I do think is that the change from a silent protagonist to a voiced, well defined Elder called Phyre who used to work in Cairo is more than just an aesthetic change. It has a number of practical and subconscious implications that pile up, and I'm seeing them in the community's complaints and reservations.

One complaint that took me by surprise is the idea that the four available clans are all samey. I'd have thought that the inclusion of Banu Haqim novel enough to dispel that. At first I chalked it up to the lack of Malkavian, the standout clan from Bloodlines. Or even the lack of Nosferatu, the clan with significantly less impact but whose sewer adventures have people talking anyways. Now I think the issue runs deeper.

When you get down to it Ventrue, Brujah, Tremere and Banu Haqim should all be radically different perspectives in any story. Arguably the three former clans were not radically different in Bloodlines. The C&C between having an early Ventrue apartment or a late Tremere apartment is nice but not such a big deal. However, like I said before, it's easy to take ownership of a silent protagonist even if you can't customize their appearance. That's the subconscious effect: the player might feel as though they are picking between flavors of Phyre, rather than what type of vampire they are in the night.

Then there's the practical effect. There could be more radical changes between being an Haqim Elder or a Ventrue Elder from the middle east. But with a fully voiced protagonist using a FO4/Mass Effect esque dialogue, the odds are there won't be. You'll have a choice of 'reminding them who you are', and they'll say that 'you were called the slayer'. The limitations imposed on the writing team by a fully voiced protagonist and their headmate are likely to bolster the feeling of which flavor of Commander Shepard you're picking. This devalues all cosmetic and actual C&C they can afford to create.

That said, I am willing to bet that this game will flop because of lower production values only. The corollary is that it could have survived through the lifeline of a jank immune Bloodlines fanbase. But I'll go farther and say that the odds are the aesthetic choices of the game will kill that lifeline, while the jank will kill the out-of-fanbase appeal of the game.