World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Semiurge]

I don't understand why anyone else hasn't tried to capture the audience... outside of shitty mobile games. It should be obvious that there are tons of consumers who want to play urban fantasy. Not even indie games. The only games I can find that take place in modernish times are either FPS games where you shoot terrorists and zombies or pure horror games where you're running from monsters trying to eat you. It's really strange. Urban fantasy is not a genre that lacks for ideas. Sure, it's 99% paranormal romance nowadays, but coming up with monster ideas should be really easy since you have the whole of world myth, folklore and pop culture to drawn from. It may not be isekai, but you can play to the same power fantasy tropes. "Regular guy with no personality (so the player can project) gets pulled into a hidden world of magic and monsters, with magical powers of his own to do stuff with like collect a harem or solve mysteries or whatever. If we want to be inclusive of girl gamers we can add some hunky male characters who have some kind of psychological trauma that our self-insert heroine can heal with her magic vajayjay and a threesome with some other hunky guy like a Laurel K. Hamilton novel."

This genre is so formulaic with its monsters of the week copied almost verbatim from poorly-sourced misinformative online wikis and heroines that heal her bi-curious harem's trauma with her magic vajayjay that you would have to be terminally stupid to struggle this much.

Urban fantasy set in populated areas sets a higher bar for developers because of the environment's familiarity and complexity. CDProjekt failed at it because they bit off more than they could spit out and they weren't even limited by realism grounded in current day world, only the source material.

I don't understand why anyone else hasn't tried to capture the audience... This genre is so formulaic with its monsters of the week copied almost verbatim from poorly-sourced misinformative online wikis and heroines that heal her bi-curious harem's trauma with her magic vajayjay that you would have to be terminally stupid to struggle this much.

Devs who want this audience don't bother with imsims or RPGs, and why would they when they can go straight to visual novels for a fraction of the cost?

the answer is that making RPGs is a humongous and fundamentally irrational idea that requires a sort of attachment that urban fantasy games generally lack. it takes a nerd with a company who grew up on D&D to make those sorts of CRPGs and let's face it, any walking sim with jump scares can sell 10 times more than the genre's greatest. the paradox of course is that emotionally compromised people aren't cutthroat administrators or realistic enough to get games out the door. we saw it with the WoD MMO deciding to implement parkour because assassins creed happened and we may have seen it with bl2.

there is no future only darkness. gehenna was all the cancellations along the way.

I'm beginning to think that the reasons why there still isn't a Bloodlines 2 boil down to the following:

• Vampires are too lame and untrendy for the masses, and masses means revenue.
• The rulebook and lore, even in their neutered forms, are too problematic now.
• The original has grown in reputation and no spiritual sequel could match the expectations, which means a very likely financial flop. It's the "curse of Half-Life 3".
• And as you said - Urban fantasy + RPG mechanics = too high a bar for inexperienced developers, which may well be the only ones contracted to do a "risky" project like this. They work for free, essentially.

The Twilight movies were massively popular, albeit very cringe and only mildly supernatural.

Massively popular with little girls. Just the target audience for a Bloodlines sequel.

 

[Delterius]

"Regular guy with no personality (so the player can project) gets pulled into a hidden world of magic and monsters, with magical powers of his own to do stuff with like collect a harem or solve mysteries or whatever. If we want to be inclusive of girl gamers we can add some hunky male characters who have some kind of psychological trauma that our self-insert heroine can heal with her magic vajayjay and a threesome with some other hunky guy like a Laurel K. Hamilton novel."

Having re-read this post I have come to the unthinkable conclusion that the hero we needed was also the hero we never wanted. There is only one studio ready to tackle this setting, these themes, and this level of optionality in RPG mechanics. It is not CD Projekt, it's not Harebrained Schemes, or Owlcat, not even Larian (sometimes clowns are sad people and I know Sven's seen some shit, just look into his eyes). Neither Tencent's money nor Microsoft's monopoly can bring about the urban fantasy promised land. Think on these holy words ye unfaithful:

If we want to be inclusive of girl gamers we can add some hunky male characters who have some kind of psychological trauma

And you already know it to be true.

Only BioWare could have done it. They gave us gay fantasy operas, they gave us gay space operas, they were the only ones who could have given us urban fantasy operas. Note the lack of gay as an adjective. That's how in the zone BioWare would have been.

You cannot deny this vampire fans. Not for all the tears of blood in the world. Hell, BioWare already had a contract with Marilyn Manson for the ad campaign!

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Also RPGs take a really long time to make. I don't know why Urban Fantasy hasn't really taken off as a video game setting. The most probable answer is just that as you said, generic fantasy is overwhelmingly the standard for RPGs, and most other media in general.

Curiously enough, urban setting is quite common in JRPGs.

 

[Delterius]

Also RPGs take a really long time to make. I don't know why Urban Fantasy hasn't really taken off as a video game setting. The most probable answer is just that as you said, generic fantasy is overwhelmingly the standard for RPGs, and most other media in general.

Curiously enough, urban setting is quite common in JRPGs.

Makes sense. The anime to JRPG pipeline includes all sorts of urbanized settings. Just a cursory look into the popular stuff like Final Fantasy and SMT/Persona gives you all sorts. From cyberpunk, to modern fantasy, to insane post modernity where people with guns fight emu riders with force shields.

Come to think of it it's kinda funny how 'out there' Planescape and Numenera settings are in the west, and it's no wonder the former had some inspiration from FF7 for it's 'agonizing spell cutscenes'.

 

[Cross]

if there is an investment in RPGs then odds are it will be in generic fantasy because that's what the audience cares for. that's where all the in built marketing and all the cultural cachet is invested.

Is it? There's no shortage of non-fantasy tabletop RPGs. And the majority of RPGs that were coming out in the era of Bloodlines (the late 90's/early 2000's) were not exactly traditional high fantasy affairs. You had Fallout, Jagged Alliance 2, Deus Ex, Arcanum, Freedom Force, Planescape: Torment, System Shock 2, Vampire The Masquerade: Redemption and obviously Bloodlines. And

The obvious problem is that there are fewer CRPG developers around now, and they're more risk-averse to boot. Though there are some signs that things are changing. Owlcat for example is now making a Warhammer 40k RPG, after releasing 2 traditional fantasy RPGs.

At this rate, we might finally get a new urban fantasy CRPG in another decade or two.

 

[SlightlyRadioactive]

You had Fallout, Jagged Alliance 2, Deus Ex, Arcanum, Freedom Force, Planescape: Torment, System Shock 2, Vampire The Masquerade: Redemption and obviously Bloodlines.

Knowing that most of the studios behind these gems closed not long after their release, it's no wonder why there are so few (bigger) developers risking doing anything other than medieval fantasy RPGs.

 

[Delterius]

There's no shortage of non-fantasy tabletop RPGs.

I mean 'getting your friends to play something other than D&D challenge level impossible' is a meme for a reason.

were not exactly traditional high fantasy affairs. You had Fallout, Jagged Alliance 2, Deus Ex, Arcanum, Freedom Force, Planescape: Torment, System Shock 2, Vampire The Masquerade: Redemption and obviously Bloodlines. And

I'm not accusing you of padding out this list, but note how there's a bunch of different subgenres packed in there to make opposition to the generic fantasy goliath. Sci fi, modern action, gothic punk, post apocalyptic, transdimensional yet still high fantasy. If you happen to be a guy who's into space RPGs then, tough luck, the zeitgeist rn might be steampunk and wizards in castles games only.

Owlcat for example is now making a Starfinder RPG

You mean 40k right

 

[Tyranicon]

Also RPGs take a really long time to make. I don't know why Urban Fantasy hasn't really taken off as a video game setting. The most probable answer is just that as you said, generic fantasy is overwhelmingly the standard for RPGs, and most other media in general.

Curiously enough, urban setting is quite common in JRPGs.

Yes! JRPGs see more releases than cRPGs and their developers have more flexibility when it comes to being creative (...depending on who they work for).

It's rather unfortunate most of them don't have the gameplay systems I prefer in an RPG.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

If you happen to be a guy who's into space RPGs then, tough luck, the zeitgeist rn might be steampunk and wizards in castles games only.

Yeah, I’m disappointed there aren’t any of those either

 

[Roguey]

lycanwarrior https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/16262/World_of_Darkness_Bundle/ and also https://store.steampowered.com/app/1299510/Vampire_The_Masquerade__Swansong/ finally coming to Steam next month.

Oh yeah and can't forget the Disco clone that won the contest and will optimistically be expanded into a full game later on https://store.steampowered.com/app/1926120/Vampire_The_Masquerade__Heartless_Lullaby/

 

[RaggleFraggle]

lycanwarrior https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/16262/World_of_Darkness_Bundle/ and also https://store.steampowered.com/app/1299510/Vampire_The_Masquerade__Swansong/ finally coming to Steam next month.

Oh yeah and can't forget the Disco clone that won the contest and will optimistically be expanded into a full game later on https://store.steampowered.com/app/1926120/Vampire_The_Masquerade__Heartless_Lullaby/

You mean the terrible shovelware cash-ins? Why should anyone care? Whoever is making those clearly doesn’t understand the audience built up by Bloodlines.

Those have consistently sucked. It’s like devs are allergic to making anything remotely competent in the urban fantasy genre, regardless of what the gameplay is.

So boiled down, what you're saying is, a lot of games are bad, devs should make them good instead. Hot take.

Yes. At this point the IP seems to be cursed. We need new IPs and a number of them. Diversity of options and healthy competition is necessary for a quality output.

 

[Cross]

I'm not accusing you of padding out this list, but note how there's a bunch of different subgenres packed in there to make opposition to the generic fantasy goliath. Sci fi, modern action, gothic punk, post apocalyptic, transdimensional yet still high fantasy.

I didn't come up with the genre classifications. Just like high fantasy and urban fantasy are two separate genres, so are cyberpunk and post-apocalyptic despite both technically being sci-fi.

It's obviously true that high fantasy is the setting most players expect out of an RPG, which is why the original Fallout advertised itself as a 'post-nuclear role-playing game' as a deliberate contrast. But that doesn't mean there's no room for non-fantasy settings. You could argue none of those games were as succesful as Baldur's Gate, but other traditional fantasy RPGs weren't as succesful as Baldur's Gate either, and several of them were still succesful enough to spawn sequels.
Ironically, Fallout eventually ended up being more succesful than Baldur's Gate. Or rather, some mutated and twisted version of Fallout.

If you happen to be a guy who's into space RPGs then, tough luck, the zeitgeist rn might be steampunk and wizards in castles games only.

For space RPGs there was Anachronox, though you could argue it's technically a JRPG.

You mean 40k right

Yeah, that's what I meant. Though there was some speculation they would be making a Starfinder game.

 

[Roguey]

You mean the terrible shovelware cash-ins? Why should anyone care? Whoever is making those clearly doesn’t understand the audience built up by Bloodlines.

Bloodlines is not the end-all be-all of Vampire the Masquerade, and going by lifetime sales on Steam, isn't even that big of a deal. I know there's someone around here who claims that Swansong is actually far more faithful to the tone of the setting than Bloodlines, which was just another video game adaptation (the second after Redemption).

 

[RaggleFraggle]

You mean the terrible shovelware cash-ins? Why should anyone care? Whoever is making those clearly doesn’t understand the audience built up by Bloodlines.

Bloodlines is not the end-all be-all of Vampire the Masquerade, and going by lifetime sales on Steam, isn't even that big of a deal. I know there's someone around here who claims that Swansong is actually far more faithful to the tone of the setting than Bloodlines, which was just another video game adaptation (the second after Redemption).

So? Bloodlines is still the single most successful product in the franchise and is what put it on the map. Paradox probably wouldn’t have bought the shell company that owns it otherwise. So what if BL has a completely different tone from the PnP? That’s what fans have come to expect. By all indications, it’s the more marketable tone with mass audiences. There doesn’t seem to be a market among gamers for 90s mall goth paraphernalia trying desperately to pretend it’s young and hip for the zoomers.

If BL is not what the IP is supposed to be, then Paradox can say goodbye to turning a profit with it. The genie is already out of the bottle. Troika set the standard for urban fantasy crpgs. Nobody else is going to be successful going forward without taking lessons from that.

So what if it’s just a mere cult classic? I don’t see anyone else exceeding it. Not in the two decades since it was released.

 

[Roguey]

So? Bloodlines is still the single most successful product in the franchise and is what put it on the map. Paradox probably wouldn’t have bought the shell company that owns it otherwise. So what if BL has a completely different tone from the PnP? That’s what fans have come to expect. By all indications, it’s the more marketable tone with mass audiences. There doesn’t seem to be a market among gamers for 90s mall goth paraphernalia trying desperately to pretend it’s young and hip for the zoomers.

If BL is not what the IP is supposed to be, then Paradox can say goodbye to turning a profit with it. The genie is already out of the bottle. Troika set the standard for urban fantasy crpgs. Nobody else is going to be successful going forward without taking lessons from that.

So what if it’s just a mere cult classic? I don’t see anyone else exceeding it. Not in the two decades since it was released.

I have no idea why they bought it, but going by Steam charts, far more people have played the free-to-play battle royale than Bloodlines (of course they would) https://steamdb.info/app/760160/charts/

That would actually be the most successful World of Darkness game.

 

[Tyranicon]

So? Bloodlines is still the single most successful product in the franchise and is what put it on the map. Paradox probably wouldn’t have bought the shell company that owns it otherwise. So what if BL has a completely different tone from the PnP? That’s what fans have come to expect. By all indications, it’s the more marketable tone with mass audiences. There doesn’t seem to be a market among gamers for 90s mall goth paraphernalia trying desperately to pretend it’s young and hip for the zoomers.

If BL is not what the IP is supposed to be, then Paradox can say goodbye to turning a profit with it. The genie is already out of the bottle. Troika set the standard for urban fantasy crpgs. Nobody else is going to be successful going forward without taking lessons from that.

So what if it’s just a mere cult classic? I don’t see anyone else exceeding it. Not in the two decades since it was released.

I have no idea why they bought it, but going by Steam charts, far more people have played the free-to-play battle royale than Bloodlines (of course they would) https://steamdb.info/app/760160/charts/

That would actually be the most successful World of Darkness game.

Steam wasn't the all-consuming platform it is now when VtMB came out, and I don't even know when the game was first available on steam, so it's reasonable to assume that the steam charts are not the ultimate measure of sales for VtMB.

That being said, it was considered a commercial failure at the time and even led to the dissolution of Troika. It is generally characterized as a cult classic. I think it sold something like 72k copies at launch.

Compare that with something like V Rising (generic late middle ages vampire setting, gameplay is like a bad diablo clone mashed with Don't Starve), which sold three million copies and isn't even out of Early Access.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

So? Bloodlines is still the single most successful product in the franchise and is what put it on the map. Paradox probably wouldn’t have bought the shell company that owns it otherwise. So what if BL has a completely different tone from the PnP? That’s what fans have come to expect. By all indications, it’s the more marketable tone with mass audiences. There doesn’t seem to be a market among gamers for 90s mall goth paraphernalia trying desperately to pretend it’s young and hip for the zoomers.

If BL is not what the IP is supposed to be, then Paradox can say goodbye to turning a profit with it. The genie is already out of the bottle. Troika set the standard for urban fantasy crpgs. Nobody else is going to be successful going forward without taking lessons from that.

So what if it’s just a mere cult classic? I don’t see anyone else exceeding it. Not in the two decades since it was released.

I have no idea why they bought it, but going by Steam charts, far more people have played the free-to-play battle royale than Bloodlines (of course they would) https://steamdb.info/app/760160/charts/

That would actually be the most successful World of Darkness game.

It’s a free to play battle royale. That’s to be expected regardless. But was it actually good? Will it be remembered? I don’t think so. The battle royale genre as a whole has been exhausted. Paradox missed their opportunity to profit with that one.

So? Bloodlines is still the single most successful product in the franchise and is what put it on the map. Paradox probably wouldn’t have bought the shell company that owns it otherwise. So what if BL has a completely different tone from the PnP? That’s what fans have come to expect. By all indications, it’s the more marketable tone with mass audiences. There doesn’t seem to be a market among gamers for 90s mall goth paraphernalia trying desperately to pretend it’s young and hip for the zoomers.

If BL is not what the IP is supposed to be, then Paradox can say goodbye to turning a profit with it. The genie is already out of the bottle. Troika set the standard for urban fantasy crpgs. Nobody else is going to be successful going forward without taking lessons from that.

So what if it’s just a mere cult classic? I don’t see anyone else exceeding it. Not in the two decades since it was released.

I have no idea why they bought it, but going by Steam charts, far more people have played the free-to-play battle royale than Bloodlines (of course they would) https://steamdb.info/app/760160/charts/

That would actually be the most successful World of Darkness game.

Steam wasn't the all-consuming platform it is now when VtMB came out, and I don't even know when the game was first available on steam, so it's reasonable to assume that the steam charts are not the ultimate measure of sales for VtMB.

That being said, it was considered a commercial failure at the time and even led to the dissolution of Troika. It is generally characterized as a cult classic. I think it sold something like 72k copies at launch.

Compare that with something like V Rising (generic late middle ages vampire setting, gameplay is like a bad diablo clone mashed with Don't Starve), which sold three million copies and isn't even out of Early Access.

There’s several medieval fantasy games with vampire PCs. Now that I think about it, none of those are story rich crpgs. Which is odd, considering Legacy of Kain exists.

 

[Roguey]

Steam wasn't the all-consuming platform it is now when VtMB came out, and I don't even know when the game was first available on steam, so it's reasonable to assume that the steam charts are not the ultimate measure of sales for VtMB.

That being said, it was considered a commercial failure at the time and even led to the dissolution of Troika. It is generally characterized as a cult classic. I think it sold something like 72k copies at launch.

Compare that with something like V Rising (generic late middle ages vampire setting, gameplay is like a bad diablo clone mashed with Don't Starve), which sold three million copies and isn't even out of Early Access.

It was released on Steam in 2007. I think it's fair to say that the majority of sales in the nearly 20 years it's been out have been on Steam and not the initial surely-meager-by-comparison print run.

It’s a free to play battle royale. That’s to be expected regardless. But was it actually good? Will it be remembered? I don’t think so. The battle royale genre as a whole has been exhausted. Paradox missed their opportunity to profit with that one.

Mostly Positive player reviews. And It's Sharkmob's game, they just paid Paradox for the license to use it, so Paradox got all the money they were ever going to get from it up-front.

 

[Zombra]

You mean the terrible shovelware cash-ins? Why should anyone care? Whoever is making those clearly doesn’t understand the audience built up by Bloodlines.

I can't figure out what you even want at this point. You complain about no urban fantasy and people point out a million urban fantasy games. Then you complain that they aren't the one specific IP you like. Then several games for the one specific IP you like are mentioned and you say but they're not the right kind of game. Your niche is getting tighter and tighter. Wasn't your original point that it would be so easy for a big company to make a huge blockbuster game that would appeal to millions of fans? Are all those millions of fans crammed in that tiny niche with you?

 

[Trithne]

The Twilight movies were massively popular, albeit very cringe and only mildly supernatural.

Massively popular with little girls. Just the target audience for a Bloodlines sequel.

Nigga have you played VtM?

If you were into TTRPGs and you wanted to get laid you took up playing Vampire, girls fucking loved that shit.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

You mean the terrible shovelware cash-ins? Why should anyone care? Whoever is making those clearly doesn’t understand the audience built up by Bloodlines.

I can't figure out what you even want at this point. You complain about no urban fantasy and people point out a million urban fantasy games. Then you complain that they aren't the one specific IP you like. Then several games for the one specific IP you like are mentioned and you say but they're not the right kind of game. Your niche is getting tighter and tighter. Wasn't your original point that it would be so easy for a big company to make a huge blockbuster game that would appeal to millions of fans? Are all those millions of fans crammed in that tiny niche with you?

I don’t know what planet you live on where there are a “million” urban fantasy video games, but it sounds like a nice place to live. I still live on a planet where the last notable urban fantasy game was released in 2004.

Mostly Positive player reviews. And It's Sharkmob's game, they just paid Paradox for the license to use it, so Paradox got all the money they were ever going to get from it up-front

It was mixed last I checked a couple months ago. In any case, it missed its window to make profit since Battle Royale is crashing. So, still shovelware.

 

[Delterius]

But that doesn't mean there's no room for non-fantasy settings.

There's evidently room. It's just that opportunity makes the thief, right?

For space RPGs there was Anachronox

come on do you want to cause suicides in the space rpg gallery

 

[Cricket McBangle]

You mean the terrible shovelware cash-ins? Why should anyone care? Whoever is making those clearly doesn’t understand the audience built up by Bloodlines.

I can't figure out what you even want at this point. You complain about no urban fantasy and people point out a million urban fantasy games. Then you complain that they aren't the one specific IP you like. Then several games for the one specific IP you like are mentioned and you say but they're not the right kind of game. Your niche is getting tighter and tighter. Wasn't your original point that it would be so easy for a big company to make a huge blockbuster game that would appeal to millions of fans? Are all those millions of fans crammed in that tiny niche with you?

I don’t know what planet you live on where there are a “million” urban fantasy video games, but it sounds like a nice place to live. I still live on a planet where the last notable urban fantasy game was released in 2004.

Mostly Positive player reviews. And It's Sharkmob's game, they just paid Paradox for the license to use it, so Paradox got all the money they were ever going to get from it up-front

It was mixed last I checked a couple months ago. In any case, it missed its window to make profit since Battle Royale is crashing. So, still shovelware.

Your definition of "urban fantasy" is just Bloodlines, then.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

You mean the terrible shovelware cash-ins? Why should anyone care? Whoever is making those clearly doesn’t understand the audience built up by Bloodlines.

I can't figure out what you even want at this point. You complain about no urban fantasy and people point out a million urban fantasy games. Then you complain that they aren't the one specific IP you like. Then several games for the one specific IP you like are mentioned and you say but they're not the right kind of game. Your niche is getting tighter and tighter. Wasn't your original point that it would be so easy for a big company to make a huge blockbuster game that would appeal to millions of fans? Are all those millions of fans crammed in that tiny niche with you?

I don’t know what planet you live on where there are a “million” urban fantasy video games, but it sounds like a nice place to live. I still live on a planet where the last notable urban fantasy game was released in 2004.

Mostly Positive player reviews. And It's Sharkmob's game, they just paid Paradox for the license to use it, so Paradox got all the money they were ever going to get from it up-front

It was mixed last I checked a couple months ago. In any case, it missed its window to make profit since Battle Royale is crashing. So, still shovelware.

Your definition of "urban fantasy" is just Bloodlines, then.

We all have preferences. I’m looking for “just” urban fantasy right now. Not dungeonpunk, not post-apocalypse, not cyberpunk… And to be fair to those, I already checked out the genre mashups. I’ve gone thru dozens of listicles. Arcanum, Disco Elysium, Shadowrun… what do you want me to do? Shutup?

 

[Zombra]

3 second google search
https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/761/Choice_of_Games_Urban_Fantasy_Bundle/