KickStarter Underworld Ascendant Pre-Release Thread

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More on the inventory from Will: https://www.othersideentertainment.com/forum/index.php?topic=1172.msg18776#msg18776

That's kewl! I love it!
Dragging items into the world is one of my fav parts of Arx Fatalis. I might stray towards that one.

As for my screenshot...
Also, please IGNORE that 'collectibles' window in my screenshot. The collectibles was really just for something to do in our early prototypes (since we didn't have a fully functional inventory yet).

System shock was definitely an inspiration for the current layout. And yes, I'm curious what people think because moving stuff around isn't that big of deal.
Like system shock, the simulation doesn't stop just because you are looking at your inventory, so keeping a lot of open space is good.
The 3d preview is a nice thing I added because it didn't take long. As for the paper doll (where you see your dude) I'm on the fence about keeping it.

As much as I'd love to innovate on inventory, we might not do anything too crazy for inventory. I'd rather we spend our 'innovation' points on active gameplay.
I only spent a day on this inventory UI, when I jump back into it I'll improve the layout.

We're not doing a tetris layout (items that take up more than 1 block), but holy crap it would be cool to do something like that resident evil picture that CyberP linked to.
Also, looking at that picture, it looks like that breifcase is 8 feet wide!!! lol!!!

When it comes to the map, I really want to do something like ARK. Which is actually really easy to do in this engine. What do you guys think about having a map like that?

System Shock 2:

Resident evil 4:

ARK (Map):

 

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On procedural quests: https://www.othersideentertainment.com/forum/index.php?topic=1140.msg18809#msg18809

1. good question. It really comes down to not being afraid of making the procedural system broad enough so we don't have to lean on 'kill ten boars' or baloney. Also because we are all about setting up goals and not about railroading the player into a single act hopefully some quests that seem simple on the surface 'there is a beast causing issues' might lead to other quests depending on how you deal with it. Notice in that statement I didn't even hint on how to deal with the beasty. Maybe you just kill it, or you could drive it away, or you could attract it to another location and have it cause issues over there, or maybe you double down and let it cause issues right were it is and turn the quest in to a different faction. Beats the hell out of 'kill the beast' quest you normally see right? And, yes..that is all just a procedural start and then using all the other systems to determine outcome. I will say every layer we peel back like this --and then we see it work, we keep having these 'why have we not been building games this way for years?' What I use in my head to keep us honest is this simple piece of wisdom. As the world creators we don't care what the outcome is. You the player do, but we are just pushing the world in motion. Sure there will be a handful of junction point quests to get you to the end, but the meat is really placing the player into a world that is reacting to their decisions.

 

[Aenra]

A seemingly good answer.. beaten by its own logic..
To have that degree of freedom? Realism? would mean not only advanced mob AI (beast can be scared, lured, etc), but also a hand-made setting wherein such potential can be realised; ie a non-generic one, that someone took the time to design exactly so as to allow for said AI to shine. For each and every quest variation. That means preparing the setting, that means consciously going over each and every outcome to make sure it can be solved in 'x' number of """creative""" ways within or near the area it will be given.

You cannot do that if you allow for procedural, but then iterate on each and every area so as to flesh it out. It's no longer procedural, lol, it's manual. Someone's had to manually go over all of it. So why waste time on a mechanic that allows for "quality" procedural quests?
Bollocks is why. They're having their fun playing with the newer toys of the industry, as they have before.

edit: The above of course stands when variety is a factor. Which should be, as that's the whole point of going procedural

 

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OtherSide asking about quest logs: https://www.othersideentertainment.com/forum/index.php?topic=1182.0

So... question for you all: What games have great quest or goal tracking UI pages? (And by "great," I mean clear and uncluttered.)

Love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks!

 

[Bubbles]

I'm glad someone already mentioned Morrowind in there, because that was the first game I thought of as well. That journal isn't actually "clear and uncluttered" at all, but it has features that are appealing and have rarely been reproduced, like hyperlinks in quest descriptions and a "collection of entries" design that make it feel like an actual journal while still accomodating dozens of quests.

 

[Infinitron]

Hmmm:



Guess they wanted to make their own official gameplay video.

 

[vonAchdorf]

Got to repeat myself - in motion it looks better than on the screenshots, the lighting works with their art style and I hope that they'll tune the "interactive" highlight shader.

 

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https://www.othersideentertainment.com/forum/index.php?topic=1187.msg18891#msg18891

So, I know that the pre-alpha prototype is out, but I'm confused on whether or not the pre-alpha build has been abandoned or not. I've read that it was supposed to be out by Q1 of 2016, and I'm posting this at the end of May. Is there something that I've just missed completely? I would really appreciate some answers to clear this up.

Not abandoned. We have a bunch of milestones coming up, and are truly out of prototype phase as of last week. I can't say soon, but in the forseeable future. Stay tuned for more news in the upcoming weeks.

https://www.othersideentertainment.com/forum/index.php?topic=1188.msg18892#msg18892

"One of the biggest tests upcoming is our Quest system, which will include both procedural quests and more conventional ‘story’ missions. The former will build out systems pioneered back in Ultima Underworld and System Shock, reacting to your solutions to problems and presenting challenges reflective of your choices."

I was amazed to read this small statement in the "Stygian Sentinel" update #23 mail. It seemed to me that it was clear that procedurally generated quests were exactly not what this KS project was about, since they are by definition generic / rinse-repeat. "Presenting challenges reflective of your choices" only makes this worse - the player should be able to pick the right strategy for each challenge presented while experiencing the story - not the challenges presented should be "tailored" to "what the player wants".

I think you are misunderstanding.
You are correct on one level-- most procedural systems are 'filler'. But think about if that system is completely married with the narrative. We keep coming back to how does the player action effect the story. How do you do good player authored experiences?

As for presenting challenges reflective of your choices, let's use the one we talked about in the kickstarter. You have a dwarf complain about not enough water to cool the forge. You know that the elves damned up one of the rivers upstream. We leave how you deal with this up to you. Not 'go blow up dam' as a quest objective. This does make more work on the backend for us of course, but part of that is to have the results of said 'quest' to feedback into the system. If you do it one way, the dwarves are happy, maybe you do it a way we have no idea how...but we always know the result. Part of what we need to do is make sure we are keying off the right thing in the end. What is that quest 'really' about? Dwarf wants water right? Not blow up dam. What is the thing that changes state...or states and how does that feedback to the quest giver, and other parties that may have an interest.

We are not interested in 'kill 10 boars at x location' type procedural quests. What we are interested in is having a system that reacts on some level to changes in the game state. There is no reason that the overlord or whatever that is controlling the system cannot be pulling quests procedurally. Will there be canned 'missions' too? Sure, and those will be the signposts holding the story arch together. But like any world its not about the story all the time, there is much to explore, do and play around with between the story beats.

 

[resilient sphere]

Smart procedural quests do sound tempting, but how can they be placed in a way that doesn't feel gross or generic? If you can repeatedly take quests from the same few NPCs then that'll feel gross and nonsensical, Skyrim taught us that, whereas if there's a limit on how many procedural quests you can undergo then why weren't they just unique quests in the first place?

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Second answer is the right one. If quest outcomes effect character/faction states and dispositions on a deeper level (already present in UW) then this is going to get pretty interesting.

 

[Infinitron]

My impression is that these aren't going to be procedural "quests" as such but more like procedural world states, similar to randomly occurring events in a simulation game. For example, you're playing Simcity, and then something happens and the populace becomes unhappy. Deal with that.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

I think my view is the same. In the same way that any object might has several properties which can be effected by outside forces, NPC/faction motivations can lead to quests that fit with their disposition or 'experiences'.

 

[Nekot-The-Brave]

Issue #25, June 6th, 2016
Next stop? Vertical Slice!
We've completed test levels and our Pre-Alpha Prototype. We've proven out our magic system, our movement system, our art style, and the basics of combat.

Over the course of building the latest few areas, we've learned what works, what doesn't, and what still needs further experimentation to perfect. There's still refinement on the art style and a shift to more economical ways of building, using materials, and streamlining the development pipeline.

But, now? We can finally focus on building The Stygian Abyss. Not just a slice or a corner, but one of the actual levels.

We decided for our Vertical Slice (aka "a section of the game that spotlights all major elements"), we'd focus on Level 2, our second smallest level.

Want a peek at some of the key locations that Level 2 will feature?

Here's a one-line description of Marcaul:

"A Tangiers-like neutral zone, this settlement features areas that represent all three major Factions."

We'd love to see what you pick up from just that simple sentence.

Introducing Underworld Ascendant's New Art Lead!

Meet Dax!

We're also proud to announce the latest addition to the Underworld Ascendant team, Art Lead Dax Procissi.

Dax recently wrapped a seven-year stint working on Lord of the Rings, Dungeons & Dragons Online, and Infinite Crisis at Turbine, where he was the Senior Animator responsible for character animations and production art.

Dax's responsibilities on Underworld Ascendant include modelling, animation, managing art pipelines, communicating with outsource artists, helping Art Director Nate Wells in art evaluation, and more. He's also an avid gamer, skateboarder, and ping pong champ.

Please join us in welcoming him on-board!

 

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https://www.othersideentertainment.com/forum/index.php?topic=1198.msg19012#msg19012

When will it be released for us to try it out?

After the summer. We have a big list we want to get in there and polished up.

 

[LESS T_T]

Otherside will having an exhibition booth at Texas Classic Game Fest (July 30-31). Will they exhibit the pre-alpha prototype, or something else?

Also Spector is keynote speaker there. He will talking about Austin game dev scene.

 

[Infinitron]

Otherside will having an exhibition booth at Texas Classic Game Fest (July 30-31). Will they exhibit the pre-alpha prototype, or something else?

Also Spector is keynote speaker there. He will talking about Austin game dev scene.

Pretty obscure. I say it's possible they'll be using the booth to try to recruit local talent for SS3.

Chris Siegel replies to mg the troll on creative problem solving and procedural quests: https://www.othersideentertainment.com/forum/index.php?topic=1188.msg19136#msg19136

So a couple of things. Annoys me to even think about having to wordsmith a forum post because other people have done a thing, and done it poorly. There is massive room for improvement in the procedural space. Call it whatever you want.

Second- exploits. Yes sure we don't want some single thing, or combos of things to become the kick from Dark Messiah. Yes we worry a bit about the power curve. But when we watch some video and someone has bent the rules of a system to do something neat or creative...we leave that alone. Why? because neat and creative is fun.

This sounds weird, but we don't try to control our world. We just try to create one that is following some set rules, and that allows the player to explore them, both in physical space, and in creative ways of existing in that space. Some of what people have talked about in here is going 'deep' on a particular aspect of a system. Wood, and rope, and pitch to make a torch for example. THAT is not what we are trying to do. It's neat and a good intellectual exercise, but is it fun? Maybe, but it probably is more tedious over time.

That is different than going 'wide' with the systems. We set it up so --lets just stick with fire cuz that is easy--wood burns. We tag wood as burnable. if it is made out of wood it burns. it's not object 7 is allowed to burn, its wood that is. This of course can be then set up by us in what we *think* might lead to interesting experiences, wooden bridges for example. But we can't be sure how exactly the player will use this.

This is different than say Far Cry 4 which has this really great grapple...nice physics, feels great. But for some reason they make it useable only in specific spots. Why do that? I mean the game has a helicopter, it's not like you can't get everywhere anyway. The decided to designer control that action, turning it into a puzzle..and a not very good one at that, instead of just adding the ability to the player for them to use however they want to.

Yes, this kind of design leads to many challenges, how do you build a world with all this in mind for example. Like in Thief --the best levels of Thief anyway, it was not about do this, then this, then this. It was just a goal, then the world was designed out with options. The verbs in that game were far more controllable, light/shadow loud/soft, but the same principle holds true here, it is just a wider scope of verbs for the player, and a world that 'understands' what those verbs are and act appropriately. It honestly isn't as hard as some people think.

https://www.othersideentertainment.com/forum/index.php?topic=1188.msg19143#msg19143

No worries, thick skin. I worked in MMO's for years.

Not sure how my last example is 'level breaking'.

MG mentions movement--and what you get in the last demo is basically 'endgame'...and even then is probably more than endgame. See, when you build new things you build to the extreme...far easier to dial back, than to dial forward when it comes to power levels.

OK lets talk about verbs, and goals. Also this concept of 'level' which is loaded and means very different things in many games. In ours it means a level of the abyss. Level 1, has this and that, level 2 has the neutral city and something else as main features exc. It's not a level is a mission like say, Thief.

So we have a bunch of verbs. Things a player can potentially do. From different movements, to fighting, sneaking, spells, other abilities, using objects, making things on and on and on. Now, in traditional single player games if you flew up to 10000 above the game it looks like a series of boxes. Easy to follow point A to point B on and on to the end. Sure, there is sometimes very WIDE boxes to give the illusion of space, but the developer is going to push you through to the end.

Now, Shock and Underworld did not do this, and that is 20 years ago. The blueprint of what we are making was imagined by 2 of the developers in the building. Build a world, not as a giant narrative corridor, but more like a jungle gym, or Tony Hawk level. What I mean by that is populate the world with options. Many options for the player to muck around with.

But but narrative....

Go back and look at the bare bones of the narrative of UU1. Get the foozles. That's really it. The flavor comes from interactions, and experiences. It's not from scripted narrative devices. So how do we plan on doing it?

PROCEDURAL QUESTS feeding into the narrative system. Yes we will have signpost missions, but they are plot points, not a written chapter, meaning we DONT KNOW what path you will take to get there.

In many games currently the player path is preordained, maybe if you are lucky it branches a couple of ways. We plan on having the mundane quests feedback into the plot points. There are other levels of importance quests too.Some have little impact, other may be seismic. A simple example of this kind of already exists in Shadows of Mordor. They have plot point story moments co-existing with other quests. Those 'other' quests are the part we are going to do as non-scripted.

All of this feeds back into the faction rep system, which then feeds back into the quest system exc exc. Really, a bunch of feedback loops...which is game design in a nutshell, again, we are just deciding not to control it as closely as other games. We are not the only ones going down this path. No Man's Sky is attempting it in a slightly different way, and pretty much every sandbox game on some level does this, but because 'procedural' scares the crap out of publishers, they spend a lion's share of time on the canned content instead of pushing the limits of system design.

 

[Infinitron]

https://www.othersideentertainment.com/forum/index.php?topic=1211.msg19286#msg19286

Sound in a nutshell.

Ambient sounds- deal with distance, and material, like Thief. Really it is the only acceptable way to go in my opinion.

Music- I really dislike soundtracks. Great for credits, but I find them jarring in games. There are of course exceptions like the new Doom where I do leave the music on, and Payday because it has gameplay implications.

The discussions that I have had with TheFastestManInTheWorld is we do all music as in world ambience. We use natural sounds to create a sound canvas and 'soundtrack' in areas where there are no local minstrels jamming out. Again, good examples of this are Bioshock and Thief. (Bioshock with out the music on). Each area does an amazing job of having a personality and informing the player what is going on. Yes, Thief had some musical stings for shock, secrets exc, and I'm not at all adverse to that. I know that FMITW wants to play around with instrumental sound effects for some things.

Long of the short is I come from TV/Film and the first lesson I learned is if the picture goes black, the sound should still tell the story. I do think games sometimes forget this...although not as much as the old days, but it does still stand out when a game has top tier audio design...like the new Doom game. I always have this dream of doing a level that is mostly total darkness, with just a torch and sound effects to navigate by. Right now I call that level 7.

Another part of the sound design will be the informational systems, quips, comments exc.

Then there is sound as a design element, does biolumenence react to sound? Creatures reacting to it? Sonar? exc. We haven't set any of that in stone, well, creatures will react to sound, but other objects, not sure yet.

 

[Morgoth]

Good. Leave that wub wub out of my Fritzl crawler.

 

[Space Insect]

If he had been talking about Doom, it would have been fine. But praising the sound design in D44M?

 

[Ash]

I fucking love game soundtracks and lament their slow transition into irrelevancy because realism-based immersion is deemed more important while seemingly ignoring that soundtracks can aid with immersion themselves a great deal anyway. Yes toning it down enables the audio design to shine brighter but I don't find that always desirable. Besides, we can have both approaches through triggers/dynamic music.

 

[Excidium II]

Fuck that loser, I like the music in UW.

 

[jcd]

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[mindx2]

God, I miss those days of DOS... allocating EMS... CRT monitor... (sigh)... so much love put into those two classics.... ah, the good ol' days....

 

[Excidium II]

lol his game has that glitch where the steps sound like piano keys.

 

[Infinitron]

lol his game has that glitch where the steps sound like piano keys.

That's what you get when you try to play MT-32 MIDI sound effects on an incompatible modern software synthesizer. Later on in the 90s, games switched to a combination of MIDI music and digitized sound effects, so they didn't have that problem (and even later, to full digitized music and sound, and MIDI disappeared)

(Obligatory Sceptic tag)