Turn Based Debate: WEGO vs. IGOUGO

[tomphonse]

CRPGs have mostly settled on IGOUGO for the execution of actions. Even most RTWP games to my knowledge have their second based "rounds" still work as an IGOUGO system under the hood. I am interested though if there is actually a demand for more WEGO games?

Notable IGOUGO Games:
Jagged Alliance 2
Fallout
Baldur's Gate 3
most turn based cRPGs and tactics games etc.

Notable WEGO Games:
Jagged Alliance: Back In Action
Combat Mission Series
Civilization V (multiplayer)
7.62 High Calibre
Brigade E5: New Jagged Union

 

[soutaiseiriron]

I played JA2 not long ago and I felt the I go you go system kind of reduced the potential of actual tactical thinking and positioning especially (along with limited game mechanics). Mostly just meant you had to cheese more difficult encounters with interrupts and buildings, a "base of fire" doesn't really exist in JA2. Didn't know Brigade and 7.62 used that system, wonder if I'd enjoy that combat more or less.

 

[Glop_dweller]

I get the strong impression that many (if not most?) players do not perceive turn based combat in these (aforementioned) and other games as being momentary events that are stretched out for player benefit; the chance to use the UI and react based upon the actions of the prior turns in the round.

The characters would not themselves perceive the battle as linear turns; certainly not perceive themselves as awaiting motionless (immobilized) as their opponent approaches, and swings a melee weapon at them, or shoots them.

 

[tomphonse]

One of the major benefits of WEGO is how it allows for more nuanced handling of attacks of opportunity. In JA2 if you want to clear a building like this you are essentially forced to walk in the door and then catch a bullet in the head by an interrupt.

Well if JA2 was a WEGO game you could have Unit A move in through the front door and Unit B move in through the back door at the same time. Then if unit A suffers an interrupt it will be whilst being attacked by Unit B. If Unit B kills or staggers the enemy it essentially cancels their turn half way through. Similarly this could happen with attacks of opportunity in a game like Divinity when you move a character outside of being next to an enemy, when the enemy goes to attack their attack could be denied by your spellcaster.

 

[man_at_arms]

It's not as simple as one versus the other. It really depends on what the other systems and mechanics are in your game, and the level of abstraction.

I generally find that the higher the level of abstraction and the more general your instructions are rather than specific, the more WEGO is entertaining, as you witness your intent being interpreted by your friendly AI or another component like the physics engine.

WEGO in a game that is fine grain and involves giving orders for specific actions for specific individuals, like most tactical CRPGs, is probably a recipe for frustration.

On the other hand, there are strategic-level wargames like the AGEOD games that are quite fun as WEGO.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I can't choose one over another, all made good games. I love Wizardry 8 as much as ToEE or X-com. The one I crave the most would be phase based (wizardry 8) though, since good games using it are few and far between.

 

[tomphonse]

Wow I am really surprised at how many prefer having the turn order in IGOUGO games be individual characters at a time over the turn being your entire party? Can the individual character turn fans extrapolate on their position because I thought it'd be 50/50 among the IGOUGO fans.

 

[Gandalf]

I like all 3 variants. Didn't voted.

Wow I am really surprised at how many prefer having the turn order in IGOUGO games be individual characters at a time over the turn being your entire party?

Have you heard about the individual character initiative system?

 

[tomphonse]

I like all 3 variants. Didn't voted.

Wow I am really surprised at how many prefer having the turn order in IGOUGO games be individual characters at a time over the turn being your entire party?

Have you heard about the individual character initiative system?

Yes although I think the payoff of being able to sync up a series of moves between party members is too much fun to give up in favour of it being all mixmatched with various enemy turns inbetween

 

[Gandalf]

I like all 3 variants. Didn't voted.

Wow I am really surprised at how many prefer having the turn order in IGOUGO games be individual characters at a time over the turn being your entire party?

Have you heard about the individual character initiative system?

Yes although I think the payoff of being able to sync up a series of moves between party members is too much fun to give up in favour of it being all mixmatched with various enemy turns inbetween

Maybe it is fun, but it feels a bit like cheating.

 

[Abu Antar]

While I am fine with all three, I like that you are allowed to build characters that can take advantage of their speed in the top option. Quickest characters act first is my preferred way.

 

[Efe]

I prefer these systems when they are well implemented.
civ5 is multiplayer is IGOUGO without any initiative system. whoever clicks first moves afaik

 

[OSK]

Wasteland 2 used IGOUGO (Individual characters) and Wasteland 3 switched to IGOUGO (entire party). Combat in Wasteland 2 felt like engaging a hectic gunfight. In Wasteland 3, it felt more like an elite squad quickly and efficiently taking down an inferior opponent.

 

[LtKaiden]

WEGO is really intended for multiplayer wargames, particularly PBEM. Issue primarily is that script-based AI has a difficult time reacting to player decisions in a WEGO system, if you look at OG Combat Mission the enemy AI only performs a single large scripted maneuver and hardly reactive to player decisions. Once an assault runs out of steam the scenario is practically over. It requires a lot of time and effort on the developer's part to properly implement an AI in a WEGO system that is reactive. I guess it doesn't help that the main implementations of WEGO are autistic wargames like Combat Mission or Dominions 6 where the number of variables is large enough even for a IGOUGO game, but that just makes the implementation that much difficult.

 

[Modron]

WEGO is really intended for multiplayer wargames, particularly PBEM. Issue primarily is that script-based AI has a difficult time reacting to player decisions in a WEGO system, if you look at OG Combat Mission the enemy AI only performs a single large scripted maneuver and hardly reactive to player decisions. Once an assault runs out of steam the scenario is practically over. It requires a lot of time and effort on the developer's part to properly implement an AI in a WEGO system that is reactive. I guess it doesn't help that the main implementations of WEGO are autistic wargames like Combat Mission or Dominions 6 where the number of variables is large enough even for a IGOUGO game, but that just makes the implementation that much difficult.

Phased based works perfectly fine in blobbers.

 

[JarlFrank]

I generally prefer IGOUGO for turn based games, WEGO is basically segmented RTWP.

Setting plays a major role in whether WEGO works. I feel WEGO works a lot better in modern settings with firearms where combat is primarily ranged, and about reaction times, field of view, spotting, laying down suppressive fire, etc etc, which are all things that work a lot better in simultaneous resolution, or in straight up real time. It's all about positioning and managing fields of fire rather than dueling specific individuals.

Games with a focus on melee and magic combat work a lot better with IGOUGO systems.

 

[S.H.O.D.A.N.]

WEGO > IGOUGO with proper initiative system > turn based IGOUGO

I dislike the alpha strike nature of turn based IGOUGO.

 

[Agesilaus]

WEGO is really intended for multiplayer wargames, particularly PBEM. Issue primarily is that script-based AI has a difficult time reacting to player decisions in a WEGO system, if you look at OG Combat Mission the enemy AI only performs a single large scripted maneuver and hardly reactive to player decisions. Once an assault runs out of steam the scenario is practically over. It requires a lot of time and effort on the developer's part to properly implement an AI in a WEGO system that is reactive. I guess it doesn't help that the main implementations of WEGO are autistic wargames like Combat Mission or Dominions 6 where the number of variables is large enough even for a IGOUGO game, but that just makes the implementation that much difficult.

Phased based works perfectly fine in blobbers.

But then you have to play a blobber

 

[mondblut]

Notable WEGO Games:
Jagged Alliance: Back In Action
Combat Mission Series
7.62 High Calibre
Brigade E5: New Jagged Union

Those are realtime games, duh. CM just stops every 15 seconds to let you give orders (or not). Which I suppose could be similar to WEGO, were those pauses not entirely optional.

The rest are simply RTWP.

Examples of WEGO are Wizardry or Dominions 5.

 

[Modron]

Which I suppose could be similar to WEGO, were those pauses not entirely optional.

Frozen Synapse is there for you.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

I like a couple of systems I have seen in board games recently (maybe called phased based or impulse, not sure if that is the correct name) with some sort of a combination of reaction time(plus random element of a die roll)/weapon speed based on weight and skill of user (specialization, class+skills)/+ some sort of weapon length adjustment that could both be a bonus and or malus for long weapons depending on the opponents weapon and ability to get inside your reach. This creates a system where both sides are interacting back and forth, and might at times have multiple people attack in a row based on their combined reaction scores.

Another more simple method is to simply put every players game piece (or on a computer just use RNG) in a cup and pick them out one at a time and play them in that order. It would be random. Sometimes one side might have a number of players attack in succession, other times not. It would also depend on how many attackers and defenders there were. This system could easily be dressed up a bit as well as needed or desired for fun or more complexity or tactical character building choices.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

i read the title and for a moment i thought this was a misplaced discussion between japanese games.

 

[ind33d]

IGOUGO is retarded and all RPGs should be based on the rules for 40K Kill Team

 

[Berengar]

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO IGOUGOUGOIGOGIUGOPGIOOOOGA!

 

[man_at_arms]

i read the title and for a moment i thought this was a misplaced discussion between japanese games.

Ah yes, the IGOUGO clan, famous for their victory at WEGO castle in 1578!