Game News Todd Howard talks about his plans to dumb down Oblivion

[Volourn]

Hmm.. This is balony. So Bethesda doesn't want to do more missle weapons than bow because people tend to choose bows. Perhaps they should ask why it's so. As Exitium pointed out, bows in MW were supposedly overpwoered comapred to other missle weapons. Too bad too.

I know that in both TOEE, and NWN as well that all sorts of missle weapons were made to be Useful. Yes, even the pitfiul sling with its pitiful damage. LOL

And, for what? To make bow animations and kills look kewler?

R00fles! :D

Please explain to me how this shoudl elad me to give them 'the benefit of the doubt"?

Hahahahaha.

 

[Jaesun]

Fallout didn't have spears.

Um you get a spear from Aredesh in Shady Sands.

 

[Seven]

Since when did they ever say anything about getting rid of every weapon besides the sword? With bows, I can understand. Nobody give's a shit about slings and thrown spears. They don't even fit into the setting.

They don't fit in the setting? Yeah, that's rich. Tell me, how do they not fit into a medieval fantasy setting? Did they not have these items back them?

Honestly now, this is one of the strangest statements I've seen in a while.

It's only because it's Bethesda. If Troika was making this decision most of them would be applauding it. Troika, for example, got rid of a bunch of the skills (especially shapeshifting related ones) in Vampire: Bloodlines in favor of fewer, but well-implemented quality skills. While I agree with their decision, a lot of Vampire players dislike it.

This is total BS, why do you always have to bring Trioka into your little tirades. A lot of their decisions might not get criticized, but the example you gave isn't the same. It's not like Troika said that they were only going to do one type of gun is it?

Planescape: Torment did not feature a variety of weapons, nor did it have any armor whatsoever for the Nameless One, and some people complained about it, but was it a bad RPG?

It had shoddy combat, though.

Great comparison, BTW, why would an immortal being need armor?

Why do you assume that melee weapons are going to dissapear?

It's not an assumption it's a criticism. We all know that they won't just do swords alone, but theoretically they could, given their current logic. I don't think that any one here believes that they'll cut other weapons; the problem here is the illogical reasoning for cutting ranged weapons (except bows).

Fallout didn't have spears. That was a Fallout 2 thing, and it was retarded. Don't forget all the stupid upgrades you could put on our weapons (OMG! TURBO PLASMA RIFLE MK2), or nonsense like Pulse Rifles. They were out of place and the game world would have been better off without them.

Yes FO did have a spear. And no it wasn't any more retarded than the concept of laser weapons. As for the proliferation of weapons well that was a problem weapons should have been more scarce in both games.

Bows are just flat out cool. See: Rambo.

Katannas a flat out cool see: Kill Bill. Now lets only have katannas in Oblivion. See how this type of logic is bad?

 

[merry andrew]

Great comparison, BTW, why would an immortal being need armor?

To prevent it from dying in combat!

 

[crufty]

One reason why it s not so hot is that enemy/NPC characters can't use them now (or is that untrue?). I might have never used shuriken/crossbow, but it was cool to go up against npc's who did.

 

[Sheriff05]

And have we, to this date, seen any developer that actually managed to deliver something good by actually cutting down on choices, to this date - wether be it weapons or anything else? I find it a sign of health that people are questioning the decisions of developers.

that's exactly right Whip, you hear this argument all the time and yet games across the board keep getting more and more simplistic, my pong analogy earlier is not really that far off having played Dungeon Siege
I think that's already happened.

Exitiums point, that he likes bows is fine. But just because they add a bunch of meaningless bell and whistles in gameplay department when it comes to Bows doesn't mean it's cool NOT to have a variety of missle weapons. hell, in a good game everything should be able to be used as missle weapon.
Why not start there? ,because developers like to make excuses for public's general acceptance of console style gameplay for PC games. They've been charging *more* money for *half* the game for years now.
I see people here trying to fool themselves that anyone with a major US publishing deal is going to *do it right*.
We'll see how "Bloodlines" turns out, but my bet is that if you ever want to see another decent CRPG anytime soon you'll be looking at European indies and that's it.

 

[Surlent]

I like both.
Bethesda has loads of time before Oblivion ships, how couldn't they add crossbows into the mix without much trouble ?

The flying arc of the projectile of crossbow is more straight and shorter than bow. Wouldn't that actually be easier to make than bow's arc ?
Calculating damage and balancing doesn't sound too time consuming if they would do this on the fly like bows.
Sure there are animations to do like the shooting and reloading.

As already said in this thread, taking something away because it's not practical/fun/useful instead of fixing it, is cheap way to get through the problem.
Same analogy can indeed be said from melee weapons like maces. You use them differently due to their heavier size and blunt end, with it you smack the enemy all over and crush its armor rather than using sword to pierce, block and slash. With mace it's harder to block due to it's heavy size though not impossible. Not only need they do different animations, but different physics, mechanics and damage calculations to get same quality and realism they are aiming for with bow.

For those who really want to extrapolate this to extremes:
Less weapon choices <--> less choices available in the game <--> less options for PC character creation <--> less options for roleplaying.
A PC character defines the role you play in the game, right ?

 

[Elwro]

I also don't understand that. We don't even know for how many years will the game be developed, and I can imagin neither that adding crossbows would reduce the quality of the game nor that it's very difficult to implement. Geez, your deadline is not this December the 1st, you can put some time into fleshing the game out.

As a side note, you could buy a ship in DF, but it wasn't very useful (apart from choosing it as a free mode of transportation). Physically it was "nowhere" - you just teleported to it iirc and it stood in the midst of waters. (I heard that someone jumped from the ship, swam for 2 hours and actually got to the continent).
On the other hand, banks and buyable houses require almost no graphics while being, for me, FUN. I also liked in DF that if you wanted to repair a weapon you had to go to a smithy, leave your weapon there and wait a long time - sometimes a few days iirc. Instant repair, as in MW, is dumb.
The number of guilds in DF was high, but for example the Temples were quite similar.

I just hope they won't tell us in a few months that "our surveys say that most players prefer more cloak models to more dialogue options, and we're known in the industry as catering to the players' needs".

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Argument from hyperbole really sucks, VD. Since when did they ever say anything about getting rid of every weapon besides the sword? With bows, I can understand. Nobody give's a shit about slings and thrown spears. They don't even fit into the setting.

Slings don't fit in a setting that's a mix between Imperial Roman and high fantasy? Romans most certainly DID use slings in warfare because they're small and easy to carry. They're also pretty effective. Saying slings don't fit in the setting is rather silly considering the basis of the setting itself.

Furthermore, just because most games don't make slings that interesting doesn't mean TES4 can't make them interesting. Conjuration, IIRC, allowed you to enchant weapons in Morrowind, right? Well, what's to stop that school of magic from being able to make loadstones for slings? Or use slings to deliver a little explosive powder or liquid? Or, for something more interesting, what about using one to deliver a nasty, flesh eating scarab or some other tiny critter that can do bad things to the target?

The same thing goes for thrown weapons. You can make loadstones that deliver a magical attack, or perhaps some burning oil, dwarven devices, caustic things like a strong acid or basic chemical like lye, ink for blinding, smoke bombs, spinning blades, and so on. Heck, thrown weapons could include bolas, which could be used for snaring targets. If there are darts that can be thrown in the game, that opens the door for a variety of fun things like poisons or diseased darts.

 

[Ortchel]

Ugh, what bull. I tried to read the whole thread but couldn't stand all the bickering, so you'll have to excuse me if this has already been said.

Though apparently most everyone wants to be the big strong hero, crossbows are essential for the few of us who want to play real people. When the crossbow was invented it almost leveled the playing field. Where previously, long bowmen were required to be tall and massively strong to handle their weapons, these previously uncontested missile combatants were now being showed up by even the most untrained weakling with the new crossbow. It completely changed the nature of warfare, archers required less training, and the young, the weak and the old now became more eligible for military service, being yet another nail in the knight-in-shining-armor's coffin as the faceless wage-paid man-at-arms became the new military power .. but I'm getting off track-

This 'dumbing down' is unfortunately the future of computer and video gaming, as the business becomes more and more just that.

But theres no point bitching about it, I just hope spears don't suffer the same fate.

 

[LlamaGod]

The same thing goes for thrown weapons. You can make loadstones that deliver a magical attack, or perhaps some burning oil, dwarven devices, caustic things like a strong acid or basic chemical like lye, ink for blinding, smoke bombs, spinning blades, and so on. Heck, thrown weapons could include bolas, which could be used for snaring targets. If there are darts that can be thrown in the game, that opens the door for a variety of fun things like poisons or diseased darts.

Great ideas, but then you remember Bethesda is making the game.

 

[Halenthal]

If the physics engine is as complex as it sounds like it may be, it's a real shame that crossbows, javelins and slings wouldn't be included. I think it would be very interesting to see different flight models for arrows, bolts and stones. Even better, make stones richochet off of walls or trees-that'd be wickedly fun to do, though probably useless.

While I'm not into it as deeply as you folks are, one thing I look for in any game of this type is the ability to toss a javelin while the enemy is at a close range and immediately switch to a melee weapon, a la the Roman style of throwing those pilums (I think that's what they were called) before mixing it up hand to hand. A crossbow is a fire-and-drop weapon for me, fire it once to do some damage, drop it and go to melee. Slings are excellent even with non-magical or explosive stones, really good for pissing off one of a group of targets so that you fight just one opponent instead of the entire group, not to mention with aimed shooting they can be quite deadly (anyone ever hear the fairly popular story of David and Goliath?). Bows are only for when an enemy is a long ways away, and if the AI is halfway decent, after getting shot with an arrow the target or his buddies will be moving towards the shooter with intention to kill.

But somewhat on topic, it sucks when a developer-any developer-cuts down on player choices for whatever reason. Practically all developers do it, for a variety of reasons, but it still sucks.

Saint: I think you mean lodestones, but your typo is excellent, whether on purpose or accidental

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Yup, it was accidental, and I lodestones is correct.

As far as the physics engine goes, the basic kinematics for any projectile is the same, so it's kind of odd they're saying they're going to drop the ranged weapons in favor of just the bow while mentioning the physics. Basic kinematics is all you really need for this type of situation really. Sure, you could have wind and mass of the projectile playing a part, but adding those would be fairly trivial once you add the hyperbolic flight stuff to allow a shot from a sling or a bolt to travel in a similar fashion.

That's why I brought up the animations. That's the only area that would be vastly different for the other stuff. The physics wouldn't really be that big a deal.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

I want choices. I want good combat. I want good quests with lots of variety. I want complete freedom to do as I please whether that be doing good, doing evil, or just walking the line with a combo of both.

And most of all....

I WANT A NEXT GENERATION DAGGERFALL!!!!

FUCK MORROWIND!!!!

Kthx.

 

[Whipporowill]

Only reason I can see for implementing bow only, and making it "really, really good" is some sort of rumblepack feedback or console control scheme or such. That worries me, although the Beth Devs has stated it's a Pc game first. When we see features that don't translate well to pc - what will happen?

 

[Vault Dweller]

The bow string vibration shtick is clearly a console thing. As for who said what, it's irrelevant. Keep in mind, that MW was a huge step toward consoles (from Daggerfall), and that's what counts. It's likely that Oblivion would take another step in that very profitable direction.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Keep in mind, that MW was a huge step toward consoles (from Daggerfall), and that's what counts. It's likely that Oblivion would take another step in that very profitable direction.

I can dream though, can't I?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yes, you can. Or you can reinstall Daggerfall.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Heh. Already tried. Can't seem to get it to work on my new system though. Never had a problem getting it to run on XP before, but now it just doesn't seem to want to.

I'll keep trying though. At least Darklands works.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Both run fine on my XP, but I did use DFInstall thingy for Win install. Here is the link
http://www.uesp.net/dagger/files/dagfil ... l#official

Scroll down to Misc. Utilities. It comes with 2.13 patch.

 

[Quigs]

Meh, id rather see them dump all ranged weapons save the bow, instead of implement them in a niggardly way. It was always annoying to see multiple types of bow im Morrowind (compound, recurve, double recurve) but one single, unoriginal type of crossbow. Come on, there were hold out crossbows, crossbows with magazine fed bolts, even two and four shot crossbows with multiple draw strings!

And to my knowledge, only heavy bolts were shorter and more powerfull. Ive only used a handfull of crossbows, and they all used more "common" types of ammo, like cone shaped darts, or even needles with a small nock and paper cone near the butt end. Those all flew pretty far, and went balls fast, but didnt seem to be very accurate, although it was probably just my lack of skill. Still, the range was far from short.

I think the main problem with bows in oblivion will be actual range vs the creation range for creatures. With my compound bow, ive shot a bit over 500 feet, on an open field. If I can do that in oblivion, even facing a fast redguard, I could get at least 10 shots in before he reaches me. So obviously, either reload is going to be terribly slow, or the *real* limit on ranged is going to be the draw distance.

 

[dagamer667]

WAAAAAHHHHH! You mean no more Ebony Dart for 2k a pop?

 

[kornostar]

I registered an account here specifically to reply to this discussion.

In MW I play an assassin type character, and although I agree the games as of late are cutting down on one ability to roleplay, I feel that it is precisely that potential to imagine and truly make the game experience personal that is one of the most important things that can be included in any rpg.

I use a crossbow and a dagger or shortsword, not because they deal out the damage uberqwik, but because that is the 'realistic' choice for an assassin's weapons. Sure, I tend to die a lot, but that forces me to play the assassin as it was meant to be played: in the shadows. If they were to take out sneaking because it wasn't a popular choice with gamers, myself and many people like me (the snipers/campers of Quake and other fps) (btw, I'm not a camper) would not be very satisfied. Furthermore, it takes out the potential for enemies to use those unincluded elements. No realistic enemy thieves, as in BG2. No enemy ambushes using any tactics other than "rush pc with orc barbarians". Talking generally here, which is more plausable; a squad of dwarven archers, or a squad of dwarven crossbowmen? A company of halfling archers or a company of halfling slingers? When you take away 'small, unused, unwanted' elements like crossbows and slings, you risk taking away an atmosphere of immersion. Even if crossbows and slings were crappy and my pc never used them for that reason, I would expect to see dwarves using crossbows (or cannons...) and halflings using slings.


Granted, those things weren't in MW, but when you take the potential for them out, you go into the game feeling...differently. Personally, when I saw the character development process for MW, I was thinking "How are these skills going to be used against me? What weapons will I come up against?" When I was a noob to MW, I thought crossbows were going to be the daddy of ranged combat. Even though they arent, it kept me alert and vigilent until I found this forum. Thanks for ruining things for me...(sniff)...(sob)...

Just my two cents...

 

[Mendoza]

Well the guy working on the stealth stuff is one of the developers from the Thief games, so this is one of the elements I'm confident will be improved over Morrowind. If they could add the same quality of stealthiness as in the Thief game (taking full advantage of dynamic lighting etc) I'd be a very happy bunny.

 

[dojoteef]

If Bethesda can conjure up a good reason not to have crossbows I can understand. Let's say they decided that crossbows don't exist in their world and they don't have any creatures that use crossbows, etc. I could most definitely see them skipping out on doing crossbows, since in a fantasy setting not everything mirrors real life.

The important thing though is this is not the case. Crossbows were used in previous Elder Scrolls games so in my opinion this is a cop out (unless they can figure out a damned convincing reason why crossbows no longer exist).