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Thief fan missions and campaigns
- Thread starter SCO
- Start date
- Joined
- May 5, 2014
- Messages
- 1,677
Oh man..
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Random_Taffer
Educated
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2015
- Messages
- 88
Here he intends to rape two "disgusting bitches" who aren't wearing head coverings.
https://youtu.be/jvBo2j6JAOw
https://youtu.be/jvBo2j6JAOw
Finishing up mission 4 of Godbreaker. I picked up a golden candlestick through a window and Connall said: "There's [didn't understand as my earphones are too silent] about carrying around 20 golden candlesticks without making a noise."
Holy shit, this is some lovely attention to detail! :D
Holy shit, this is some lovely attention to detail! :D
Random_Taffer
Educated
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2015
- Messages
- 88
I think it's something like "There's certainly an art form to carrying around 20 golden candlesticks without making a peep."
nicked
Educated
Bruder Murus is at it again, looks like!
nicked: Welcome! No problems with the name, although I did warn you in advance.Hopefully, there is no cause for confusion.
The terrible truth is that I'd already made the animated title screen logo and didn't want to change it. I think with the different subtitle on yours, and the Dark mod/Thief 2 difference, it shouldn't cause any actual confusion. Hopefully anyway!
Squadafroinx
Novice
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2017
- Messages
- 35
In case you don't check Skacky's twitter account for TBP updates (shame on you 
), there is this poll about changing the NPC alert system so they can notice you if they bump into you while you're standing in a perfect shadow
https://twitter.com/skacky/status/829356474224824322
), there is this poll about changing the NPC alert system so they can notice you if they bump into you while you're standing in a perfect shadow https://twitter.com/skacky/status/829356474224824322
- Joined
- May 13, 2009
- Messages
- 28,585
Unkillable Cat - They did say this was the place to be for non-sugar-coated criticism.
First off I'm terribly sorry for the late reply - I've been busy with other things (including finishing your mission) and you deserve an answer first you came here. Welcome.
But to answer the underlined part first - this explains a great many things. You're following standard game design philosophy of trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Makes sense if you want publicity and lots of sales, but it does little else except hurt your game. Check the big AAA-games in general vs smaller games that dare(d) to be a little different and stupid or more challenging... like Thief: The Dark Project.
Of the issues I named that I can surely say are personal preferences, I'm gonna start with the artificial restraints on movement. Every gate in the FM is closed, and in every single case I must either make a small detour, or come at the gate from the other side to open it, and in proper order. While there's nothing wrong with using these design elements in general, it gets noticeable and bland when they're pulled out for every gate. Dividing up the level can make sense for several reasons, but you went overboard on this one. Too many compartments, too many times that the "flow of travel" is disrupted by an obstacle.
(On that note I have to report a bug. The gate leading to the sewers in the shop booth area can be leaned through to frob the lever, granting nosey taffers access to the sewers ahead of schedule. By using this method I entered the Hammerite church first through the crypts, and it set off objectives in the wrong order, though it didn't börk the mission.)
Consistency is also another pet peeve. Some keys stayed and cluttered up my inventory, while others vanished after a single use. With so many keys jangling in my pockets by the end, I have to ask why a keychain wasn't implemented, especially since it's been done before. This also translates into architecture. The building with the statue guarded by the security system, for example - there are no doors leading to the lower levels (frobbable or otherwise) and no visible means that connects this part to the ground level. How do the guards get in and out? Do they skirt the outside walls to climb in through that open window, just like I did?
You also mention trying to get a "day in the life" feeling going on, which is hard to do when almost every place is empty. I'm not just talking about the streets, but houses as well. I get the feeling that you had a grand idea for this FM, but then realized you bit off more than you could chew and had to downscale - but went too far when it came to the people. Compare to "Morbid Curiosity" - there are some people about, but clever usage of sound cues at key locations gives an impression of a far greater number of people around, even though you never see or meet them.
My biggest peeve are the audiologs - more on that later.
There is one final point that I didn't mention that is most definitely a personal bias, and no doubt had an impact upon my overall opinion of this FM: The new models and assets that fans made for Thief 1 & 2 some time back. The bookshelves, some furniture, railings etc - I generally don't like them as I don't feel they fall within Thief's style - and that's before we get to the point that their "hit boxes" don't always translate properly, leading to instances of me mantling on thin air and such. Yes, they're not as blocky and pixelated as Thief's original assets, but they feel too much like placeholder models for The Dark Mod.
Sadly I'm gonna have to say: "Almost all of them." Not every readable is a transcript of someone's innermost thoughts, but their purpose as exposition devices or information delivery units is clear as day. If you're jotting down a password/combination that you need to remember, you don't say that it's the password, or even hint that it may be (unless the intent is that the author of said readable is an imbecile). A simple "Remember - 1337" message in a page margin (or in a seperate paragraph, you know what I mean) makes sense. Someone writing a journal that, if read by the wrong party, incriminates the writer also makes no bloody sense. (Winterbottom's journal.) Honestly there were too many examples to point out more specifics, but two good readables were Letchin's (sp?) letter which was written in Bad English by a not-so-clever taffer, as well as a letter where the rest of the staff was told about how one guard got fired because he dropped the key down the sewers. The rest, however...
Since I've spent so much text on this, I might as well add some more about how the rest of the FM played out for me: I loved the Hammerite church and the sewers, as well as the paranoid noble who fortified his position. But in terms of architecture the rest didn't do much for me... though I have to ask what possessed you to make a few ceilings being outright stuffed with thin wooden beams? It looks great and all, but I wouldn't be surprised if DromED punched you in the face at least once for even trying it.
Turns out I was wrong about the potted plants, but not about the laundry list of objectives. At least many of the "sidequest" objectives were optional, which is a huge step up.
One question - the guy in the sewers that broke into the Hammerite church - why did he do so? Why steal that thing in particular? Did I miss a readable somewhere that explains this? (I did find the readables by his bed, but they didn't answer this.) He claims he's hungry, yet he didn't touch the food in the kitchen.
(Another potential bug is about critter conversations. On three seperate occasions (guards by gate next to fox parade float, guards outside The Stag, and the Hammerites in front of the altar) I could see what looked like a setup to trigger a conversation, yet only in one instance did a convo actually take place (guards by The Stag) and it only did so the second time I came close to them (after a reload).)
I ended up 900 loot short of the total amount after 3 hours, 25 minutes of gameplay with all objectives ticked off that I was given. While there's plenty to do in this mission, I can't exactly recommend it to other taffers, but I'm not telling anyone to stay clear of it either.
I hope this helps.
So I'm stuck on the last objective of Godbreaker Mission 4 and waiting for the taffers at TTLG to post the solution (can't find those diamonds), and while I do that I'll just post my thoughts on the mission here since I already did the same for mission 2.
First off, this is a solid 9/10 city mission. It reaches the top dogs of Thief FMs in its sprawling size and its exploration.
- The first part where you cough and go blind occasionally was ok; it was unusual and hard but it was quickly over and when you know where you have to go, it is not problem at all. I didn't find the way up to the amulet to be hard to traverse, it was actually quite easy to dodge the guards; I'm NOT a ghoster at all, I blackjack every dude I see, but I still managed to get through this with only one single reload. It was fine.
- After that, the city opens up and HOLY SHIT this is glorious. There's two ways to get out of Dennison's, I went through the door and Fen went through the window in his LP... going through an area first that I only reached after almost two hours of play. This is true for the entire mission. Lots of rooftops to climb, lots of windows to get into, a lot of rope spots to try. The exploration in this one is pure joy. I haven't had this much fun exploring since Endless Rain. It's this good.
- All the cool little places you can find that give so much life to the mission. The pentagram room (that apparently doesn't do anything), the witch's place you can get into with a key, the mages' place, the taffers' tavern in the rooftops, there is SO much to find I kept finding new stuff even after finishing most of my goals. This is how you make a mission feel alive.
- Windows were often too narrow, jumps were often hard when you had to jump from slanted roofs. That could be improved.
- The patrols in the hammerite church's courtyard should get their lamps taken away. I had to fix a save with dromed because I put an unconscious body in the shadows below the front gate's archway. I kept failing the mission and had no idea why, until I ran back to the gate and arrived just in time to see a hammer patrol with lamp discover the body there. This place looks like it's a safe dumping-spot, but it's not... and once you realize it's not, it might be too late. Needs a fix.
Not much more to say, really. It is an excellent city mission with superb exploration and some minor issues.
9/10.
First off, this is a solid 9/10 city mission. It reaches the top dogs of Thief FMs in its sprawling size and its exploration.
- The first part where you cough and go blind occasionally was ok; it was unusual and hard but it was quickly over and when you know where you have to go, it is not problem at all. I didn't find the way up to the amulet to be hard to traverse, it was actually quite easy to dodge the guards; I'm NOT a ghoster at all, I blackjack every dude I see, but I still managed to get through this with only one single reload. It was fine.
- After that, the city opens up and HOLY SHIT this is glorious. There's two ways to get out of Dennison's, I went through the door and Fen went through the window in his LP... going through an area first that I only reached after almost two hours of play. This is true for the entire mission. Lots of rooftops to climb, lots of windows to get into, a lot of rope spots to try. The exploration in this one is pure joy. I haven't had this much fun exploring since Endless Rain. It's this good.
- All the cool little places you can find that give so much life to the mission. The pentagram room (that apparently doesn't do anything), the witch's place you can get into with a key, the mages' place, the taffers' tavern in the rooftops, there is SO much to find I kept finding new stuff even after finishing most of my goals. This is how you make a mission feel alive.
- Windows were often too narrow, jumps were often hard when you had to jump from slanted roofs. That could be improved.
- The patrols in the hammerite church's courtyard should get their lamps taken away. I had to fix a save with dromed because I put an unconscious body in the shadows below the front gate's archway. I kept failing the mission and had no idea why, until I ran back to the gate and arrived just in time to see a hammer patrol with lamp discover the body there. This place looks like it's a safe dumping-spot, but it's not... and once you realize it's not, it might be too late. Needs a fix.
Not much more to say, really. It is an excellent city mission with superb exploration and some minor issues.
9/10.
So, Behind Closed Doors:
- you have to find out about some mysterious murderer who is disemboweling people
- you find a lot of reports on the guy in the watch station
- one report is the interrogation of a criminal found near a murder scene who talked gibberish about "those beady eyes"
5 bucks says the murderer is a Dewdrop doll.
- you have to find out about some mysterious murderer who is disemboweling people
- you find a lot of reports on the guy in the watch station
- one report is the interrogation of a criminal found near a murder scene who talked gibberish about "those beady eyes"
5 bucks says the murderer is a Dewdrop doll.
I found those diamonds by accident... I thought I had found a secret but it was the diamonds...
It's in the captain's office inside Shadepool Watch station
Look closely below the empty vault/strongbox
Yeah, found the diamonds and finished the campaign. Great stuff 9/10 overall, and I learned a lot about mission design while playing it too!
About BCD:
- some of the Cat's criticisms are valid: seems slightly more linear than it should; receiving rope arrows right from the start would have been a good thing
- also a thing the Cat said that I have to second: SO MANY BEAMS ON THE CEILINGS INDOORS, how close did you get to the cell limit nicked?
- THIS MISSION IS SO FUCKING GORGEOUS. Say about daylight missions what you want, all I know is that they're really fucking beautiful and I will forgive them any flaws the daylight aspect might give them. Really, this looks wonderful
- Some of the ledges are way too narrow. They look like they could be used as walkways, and when I try 5 times they actually function as such and lead to a place, but still... they're so narrow, 90% of the time you will fall down. Just 0.5 more dromed units in size would work wonders there.
- I like the climbing opportunities and verticality. Also, that fox is SO CUTE
SO CUTE
About BCD:
- some of the Cat's criticisms are valid: seems slightly more linear than it should; receiving rope arrows right from the start would have been a good thing
- also a thing the Cat said that I have to second: SO MANY BEAMS ON THE CEILINGS INDOORS, how close did you get to the cell limit nicked?
- THIS MISSION IS SO FUCKING GORGEOUS. Say about daylight missions what you want, all I know is that they're really fucking beautiful and I will forgive them any flaws the daylight aspect might give them. Really, this looks wonderful
- Some of the ledges are way too narrow. They look like they could be used as walkways, and when I try 5 times they actually function as such and lead to a place, but still... they're so narrow, 90% of the time you will fall down. Just 0.5 more dromed units in size would work wonders there.
- I like the climbing opportunities and verticality. Also, that fox is SO CUTE
SO CUTE
- Joined
- May 13, 2009
- Messages
- 28,585
Since Godbreaker Mission 4 is up for discussion:
# That start is horrible, period. Fortunately the rest of the mission makes up for it, but I can understand anyone that won't bother.
# One would think I'm speaking of the operating system when I cry: "Fucking windows!" They are the bane of this mission. Too hard to traverse for little to no reason. Figuring out that the only way to get through two of them involved running at them while crawling took way too much time.
# The "I am a burrick"-readable actually made me laugh out loud for far too long. Well done. It's good criticism of modern-day social politics, yet can stand alone on its own.
# It took me way too much time to figure out that to get into the small pub to drop off the ring, all I had to do was open the front door and walk right in... mostly because I couldn't find the front door.
Talk about "hidden in plain sight".
# I found it kinda cheap that I could actually observe critters as they're despawned from the mission. (Prisoner in cell + one other I can't recall right now.)
# I managed to cause a minor "incident": I made enough noise outside of the Watch House that guards in the basement went searching for me... which led them into the big cell... which led to quite a massacre. When I finally came down to the cells there was one guy alive in there facing the wall and a pile of bodies by the cell door. Oops.
# I also started an "incident" where I was jumping across rooftops and a hostile archer started firing at me. Unfortunately this alerted nearby members of the Watch, so I stood perched in a flowerbed while mass carnage erupted in a tight alleyway 'round the corner. The Watch lost.
# Taff that taffing drunk with the taffing frying pan!
If I can revise my overall rating of the Godbreaker campaign, it goes up from 5/10 to 6/10. It has two amazing missions, but getting to the good parts requires slogging through some terrible content first. The whole campaign could easily have been trimmed down to 2 missions with abridged exposition all round, and not lost one bit of quality.
IMO what Random_Taffer could have benefitted from here is a good Producer: Someone who recognizes the good output of a content creator from the bad, and can seperate the two. I am not that someone, but I know of them and how they think. World-famous musicians have had to have producers step on their toes (and pride) and take away their pet project albums, just so that they'd get released one day. Some of those albums are iconic legends in their fields. A one-man show can make that one man famous, but far too often it'll be his downfall. This is why I advocate two-man partnerships (at the least), preferably with someone that can spot the other's faults and speak out on them. This goes way beyond modding for old computer games, it's just common sense.
# That start is horrible, period. Fortunately the rest of the mission makes up for it, but I can understand anyone that won't bother.
# One would think I'm speaking of the operating system when I cry: "Fucking windows!" They are the bane of this mission. Too hard to traverse for little to no reason. Figuring out that the only way to get through two of them involved running at them while crawling took way too much time.
# The "I am a burrick"-readable actually made me laugh out loud for far too long. Well done. It's good criticism of modern-day social politics, yet can stand alone on its own.
# It took me way too much time to figure out that to get into the small pub to drop off the ring, all I had to do was open the front door and walk right in... mostly because I couldn't find the front door.
Talk about "hidden in plain sight".# I found it kinda cheap that I could actually observe critters as they're despawned from the mission. (Prisoner in cell + one other I can't recall right now.)
# I managed to cause a minor "incident": I made enough noise outside of the Watch House that guards in the basement went searching for me... which led them into the big cell... which led to quite a massacre. When I finally came down to the cells there was one guy alive in there facing the wall and a pile of bodies by the cell door. Oops.
# I also started an "incident" where I was jumping across rooftops and a hostile archer started firing at me. Unfortunately this alerted nearby members of the Watch, so I stood perched in a flowerbed while mass carnage erupted in a tight alleyway 'round the corner. The Watch lost.
# Taff that taffing drunk with the taffing frying pan!
If I can revise my overall rating of the Godbreaker campaign, it goes up from 5/10 to 6/10. It has two amazing missions, but getting to the good parts requires slogging through some terrible content first. The whole campaign could easily have been trimmed down to 2 missions with abridged exposition all round, and not lost one bit of quality.
IMO what Random_Taffer could have benefitted from here is a good Producer: Someone who recognizes the good output of a content creator from the bad, and can seperate the two. I am not that someone, but I know of them and how they think. World-famous musicians have had to have producers step on their toes (and pride) and take away their pet project albums, just so that they'd get released one day. Some of those albums are iconic legends in their fields. A one-man show can make that one man famous, but far too often it'll be his downfall. This is why I advocate two-man partnerships (at the least), preferably with someone that can spot the other's faults and speak out on them. This goes way beyond modding for old computer games, it's just common sense.
AFAIK Yandros helped with Godbreaker a bit?
The only thing I'd agree on with you here is that Godbreaker has too much exposition. Especially in the pagan village. The conversations there are just too long, especially the one with the shaman. Other than that, I have no real complaints about Godbreaker (other than the windows). The poison part at the start of mission 4 is... well, it's different. I didn't find it to be that horrible, but I underatand why this section is so polarizing. Either you're fine with it or you absolutely hate it, and I get why some people hate it. It's not objectively terrible though, it's just a gameplay element that is rather unusual for Thief and that will be jarring to many players.
Now, back to Behind Closed Doors:
I retract my agreement with the Cat on rope arrows. They arrive at just the right moment. The wait for them isn't too long at all.
The mission also opens up a lot once you get past the first handful of gates. I'm in the area with the bank now, and that's much more open.
One legit criticism though: why was I not able to pick up the bottle of liquor of the real estate agent before getting the quest? It just leads to needless backtracking. Garrett pockets valuable wines all the time, so picking up valuable whisky is just as logical. I don't see why you shouldn't be able to frob it before getting the quest.
Mechs Delight
Educated
I feel the whole third "mission" of "Godbreaker" could have been much better told in a concise briefing. As it is, it's just needless, painfully long exposition. The start of the fourth mission is somewhat tedious, but I didn't outright HATE it; it was kind of interesting, actually.
As for "Behind Closed Doors," I played a short way into it, and I'd say so far it's very pretty to look at (and listen to!), but a little bland in the gameplay department.
As for "Behind Closed Doors," I played a short way into it, and I'd say so far it's very pretty to look at (and listen to!), but a little bland in the gameplay department.
Yandros
Savant
Apparently I suck ass as a producer.
:mrpresident:
"You suck YUUUGE ass!"
Good thing I was only hired as a technical consultant. :D
:mrpresident:
"You suck YUUUGE ass!"
Good thing I was only hired as a technical consultant. :D
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I would've read that as satirical until my boi spoke and showed me the truth.
BruderMurus said:
Going for that Nightcrawler aesthetic?
8004 terrain brushes! That's large.
8004 terrain brushes! That's large.
nicked
Educated
In don't think AAA design philosophies are all inherently bad, or that everything a smaller, quirkier game does is good. There are certainly annoyances and plenty of outright bad design in Thief: The Dark Project, and Thief 2 for that matter. Would "fixing" these make the games less interesting? Perhaps! That's a broader philosophical question. My goal with level design is (among other things) simply to try and ensure that no-one playing the mission can get stuck due to illogical puzzles. If I got everything hypothetically perfect, I would want to have a mission that doesn't even need a Help thread on TTLG, because no-one had any trouble with it (yet still enjoyed the time they spent playing it). If that's "appealing to the lowest common denominator" then so be it. I can totally understand if that has increased the blandness. Injecting real personality into my missions is something I've always struggled with - I had the same emptiness complaints about many areas of Sturmdrang Peak.
It's always a fine balancing act between realistic/immersive spaces to explore, and designing gameplay which is fun and a surmountable challenge. Perhaps the balance is all wrong with this one (I'm way too close to judge, I'd need to revisit it in a few years) - it's the first time I've ever attempted a big city/rooftop mission. It was certainly designed a bit ass-backwards, and it shows if you know what you're looking for (hint: almost all the buildings were in place before there was any story or characters). If I made a city mission in future, I'd certainly want to get a rough story worked out first (as I usually do much earlier in the process than with this mission), and then design gameplay spaces to serve that story, rather than fitting the story into an existing space - it is inherently less engaging.
In terms of gating - I deliberately made the first two areas very linear to start, but I hope you found that the mission opened up and became a lot less linear once you traverse the canal.
A keyring setup would have been a good idea in hindsight, although I always dislike that you can't see the names of the individual keys.
As for illogical/unenterable buildings - all of these should have fake doors built into the brushwork to imply lower floors that don't exist. It's not ideal but it just got too huge to expand many more interiors. :p
Wooden beams don't eat nearly as many cells as you might think - they're cuboids and all at right angles. Uneven terrain and stairs with gaps in are the biggest killers. Also there are a number of beams and other shapes that are actually objects so that helps. Overall architecturally I was going for a hi-res, realistic(ish) look and very deliberately used as few stock resources as possible. There are no stock terrain textures in the whole mission (technically true, as the few stock textures I did use, I added a layer of grime to).
Also - beady eyes doesn't necessarily mean Dewdrop. It could be something more horrifying... :D
It's always a fine balancing act between realistic/immersive spaces to explore, and designing gameplay which is fun and a surmountable challenge. Perhaps the balance is all wrong with this one (I'm way too close to judge, I'd need to revisit it in a few years) - it's the first time I've ever attempted a big city/rooftop mission. It was certainly designed a bit ass-backwards, and it shows if you know what you're looking for (hint: almost all the buildings were in place before there was any story or characters). If I made a city mission in future, I'd certainly want to get a rough story worked out first (as I usually do much earlier in the process than with this mission), and then design gameplay spaces to serve that story, rather than fitting the story into an existing space - it is inherently less engaging.
In terms of gating - I deliberately made the first two areas very linear to start, but I hope you found that the mission opened up and became a lot less linear once you traverse the canal.
A keyring setup would have been a good idea in hindsight, although I always dislike that you can't see the names of the individual keys.
As for illogical/unenterable buildings - all of these should have fake doors built into the brushwork to imply lower floors that don't exist. It's not ideal but it just got too huge to expand many more interiors. :p
Wooden beams don't eat nearly as many cells as you might think - they're cuboids and all at right angles. Uneven terrain and stairs with gaps in are the biggest killers. Also there are a number of beams and other shapes that are actually objects so that helps. Overall architecturally I was going for a hi-res, realistic(ish) look and very deliberately used as few stock resources as possible. There are no stock terrain textures in the whole mission (technically true, as the few stock textures I did use, I added a layer of grime to).
Also - beady eyes doesn't necessarily mean Dewdrop. It could be something more horrifying... :D
It's a semi-renovated manor house with the older bits inspired by Nightcrawler and the newer ones more in line with Thief 2, but still retaining that cold TDP aspect. The amount of terrain brushes is mostly due to a vast majority of arches being made out of solid wedges instead of air cylinders, because we're very close to the cell limit. In terms of size, the mission is slightly bigger than, say, Heist Society, and I think fans of mansion missions should like this one. It even has a few city bits with rooftops!
nicked
Educated
Sounds awesome! I've always kinda wanted to do a "mansion" mission that is just unrealistically enormous - like a Gormenghast fan mission with just rooms in the ludicrous hundreds. Probably wouldn't actually be much fun to play though...
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