Thief fan missions and campaigns

[JarlFrank]

Have a screenshot of my (still in progress) crappy first attempt at an FM. It's still missing AIs and I'll add some more decoration and shit, and the architecture is very unfinished too (this is the only angle on which there aren't any huge bare walls in your vision):

 

[Max_b5]

It looks really good. Is that going to be some kind of market? I'm guessing the first building on the right is Garrett's house.

BTW I was about to try KOI but I saw that thing weighs 690 mb. LMAO not even bothering.

 

[JarlFrank]

It looks really good. Is that going to be some kind of market? I'm guessing the first building on the right is Garrett's house.

It's a plaza with a small well in the middle, and yes, I intend it to be a market area so I'll add some market stands later. Behind the camera, there's the baker's house which contains a cake you gotta steal (cause why not), and the house to the right is indeed Garrett's. The big mansion you see in the back belongs to a noblewoman from which you have to steal something (but it's not gonna be that easy!).

For now, it's the only area of the mission that looks presentable. But I'm progressing. :D

 

[skacky]

Alright, I'm masochistic so I carried on with Keeper of Infinity. This first mission keeps on piling the bullshit. The ride never ends!
Basically the more objectives you complete the more areas open. This is contrary to Thief's design and unlike the original version which only had a few, this one is FULL of that crap. Here's a small list of absurd stuff I encountered:

- To get into the Inn rooms you have to climb on a ledge outside. To do so you would believe you'd have to shoot a rope arrow on the protruding wooden beams under the roof of a nearby tower. Oh no, you're wrong! You have to shoot a rope arrow on an extremely tiny wood surface between the stone base and the stucco upper structure. This has to be one of the most retarded stunt I've ever seen in an FM so far. Here's a pic to show you.

Spoiler

- After you find a specific book, a glow appears on the House of Science on a small roof. Getting on that roof is an absolute nightmare because Garrett cannot mantle on it. The only ways I found to get on top of it was to climb on a statue and from there either stack a crate on it, or crouch+jump on the roof, and even then that doesn't always work.
- At one point I had to return to a Keeper hideout (which is suprisingly very easy to find) but the Keeper wasn't there. You'd expect to be able to get out, but that would be too easy! An invisible wall now blocks the exit for some odd reason and you have to find a super tiny switch in a very-well hidden alcove in order to read a book. At first I thought this was a bug, which wouldn't surprise me at all. Said book now makes a manhole frobbable in the outer city. You know, that manhole that was unfrobbable and that you did not give a fuck about! Good luck!
- After you, guess what, read another book, another area magically opens for some reason. Again, don't question the logic, just try to understand it. After you smash open a small compartment you have a key, and suddenly a door that was previously locked in the inn magically opens.

I'm right here at the moment, torn between intense sighs and hilarity. The mission is also chock full of issues like borked roombrushes coupled with no-KO guards in bright rooms, so you don't know where they are since you can't hear them. I'm going to finish it. For science!

I hear the second mission is even more loaded than that one.

 

[Melan]

JarlFrank: That's some neat initial steps. My criticism/recommendations:

• Your spaces are too big. If you cut the square by half, it would still be pretty large. The mansion also has a giant footprint - if you carve it all out, you will either have very big rooms or a very large mission.
• Things are very regular, neat and flat. The less neat they end up, the better. Try some odd angles, add a wedge or two, bring out the third dimension (even if only a balcony you can climb from a market stall). Even something like a less regular flower pattern can help.
• There is a lot of architectural repetition, like the row of windows on the left. Break up the pattern with something different, something irregular or something that doesn't belong there.
• The ambient light is too high. It is much better to have it lower, and rely on high light-dark contrasts. Try the same scene with a lower ambient value (I think you have the default - go for a value of 4 to 6). Also, the more complex the architecture, the more interresting and varied the shadows. But the shadows can hide even relatively simple architecture!
• If you can help it, don't use too many Thief 2 stock textures, but try to go for something more saturated and varied.

 

[Melan]

WRT Keeper of Infinity, that looks like a classic symptom of the mission author having a specific "clever" solution in mind, and trying to make the player experience it at all costs instead of posing open-ended questions and letting the player come up with something of their own. Sadly, that kind of author egoism is not uncommon in game design, and it is especially common among frustrated wannabe novellists/film directors.

 

[skacky]

Okay so apparently I won't finish mission 1, since I broke it by doing things in the 'wrong' order.

Confirmed. If you enter Thereon's room before finishing Jonas' job with a crystal, fulfilling the objective to check out the "House of Science", you cannot leave it again until you have read Thereon's notes. If you read his notes, though, Jonas vanishes, and you can never do that crystal job anymore. Unfortunately, this is the only way to trigger opening the way into the "Clean & Cozy Inn", which is needed to finish another objective.

Was this mission even tested in the first place? Serious question. This is baffling.


On to mission 2 I guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Darth Slaughter]

So who will be the one criticizing this mission on TTLG?

 

[Max_b5]

So who will be the one criticizing this mission on TTLG?

No one. That's why this thread exists I guess.

 

[Yandros]

There are a lot of people criticizing it over there, if you count the constant parade of people angrily asking for help because they're stuck as criticism.

 

[DrKubiac]

I gave up with Keeper of Infinity, I didn't even try to go further with the previous version. A good old ragequit, and I rarely do so. I managed to finish his other mission, Lost in Far Edges or whatever, and it was painful enough.

I was hoping he would have fixed it, but judging by the frustration on TTLG and from Skacky it got even worse. It sure looks amazing, I'll give him that, but I'm not gonna waste my time.

 

[Max_b5]

This is why we need more Rocksbourg.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Keeper of the Prophecies, Part 2

(Or how some memories should stay buried.)

Spoiler

Mission 4 has the graveyard from Thief 2 OMs plus the area found in Mission 1, plus a short walk through town to reach the Hammerite Cathedral...all while Garrett is poisoned and slowly dying. Healing potions only heal 2 HP, but at least there's plenty of them around.

You would think that slowly dying from poison would constitute a good enough time limit, but no, an additional timer is put into the FM, urging players to rush through the mission. This timer is about 55 minutes, but on three occasions that time is eaten up by scripted scenes. Two of them can be avoided, but I got stopped by the last one. I'd say these scenes eat up between 10-15 minutes total, leaving 40 minutes for taffing. Except there's no loot count, and no shop is present between this mission and the next, so why bother?

Because in order to finish the mission, a gate must be unlocked. And in order to unlock that gate, a LARGE detour must be taken. But this detour actually has has all the other mission objectives along the way. So this FM has lazy, crappy level design more befitting an FPS than Thief. And most of the time, getting through a specific area requires that a large portion of the geography of the area be crossed first.

Horribly bad level design. Strike One.

Two timers in a Thief mission. Strike Two.

But it's along this detour that the personal aspects of the author become apparent. The mortician's daughter has just died, and he's mad with grief, a third aspect of dealing with loss. The girl's room can also be found, along with the doll you must take with you "on your adventures". It's a touching scene, but I was too bothered by the crappy elements of this mission to feel the full impact of it.

Then there's the problem with the ice. Winter has come, and there's a thick layer of ice on every water surface...well, it looks thick enough, anyway. The truth is, certain spots in the ice break if Garrett walks upon them, and falling into the icy cold water is almost certain death. So while staying off the ice is the name of the game, finding out that the water is hazardous or that the ice can break can only be discovered via trial and error. Despite the numerous readables that are in this mission, none of them address this issue. That's just bad game design, but a minor issue.

Another minor issue is how the secondary timer of the mission is enforced. Around the cathedral gate are some doors that only critters can open. As time passes, these doors will bring in new critters. First it's just NPCs, then some guards and Hammerites, and finally zombies and Haunts. That's right, the mission PUNISHES you for taking too long to do things. Fortunately there's plenty of gear to be found...IF you bother to taff about and check those corners.

This is one of the most un-Thief-like missions I've ever played. From a gameplay perspective it adds nothing but frustration and annoyance. From a story perspective it adds very little except reveals the antagonist's identity. From meta-knowledge perspective it does show the author's tribute to his daughter, so there's at least that. But everything else...sucks. It's just a horribly bad Thief FM.

"Midnight in Murkbell" from Calendra's Legacy may have dropped off my list of "Worst Thief FMs of all time"...but now I have a replacement, and it's gunning for the top spot on the list. At least I managed to complete it and reach the next mission...


Mission 5: "The Insurrection" is that monstrously huge cathedral that has been previously mentioned and foreshadowed. "At last!" I thought, "I can go taffing in a serious-looking building!"

Er...no. Not really.

This mission ALSO has two timers like the previous mission. The slow-acting poison isn't a big problem, but in 65 minutes Garrett must reach a Pagan Portal and jump through it. First problem: Finding it. With a building this big, I felt like I had been tasked with finding a virgin in Mexico. But the cathedral is sealed from within, and getting in requires finding the only pipe on the whole ground-level exterior of the cathedral, then ascending further upwards until a way inside can be found. That takes some doing, and was the highpoint of the mission for me. Once inside I was both amazed and disappointed to discover that the cathedral has sensible architecture - long passageways, a large, well-lit central space with marble floor everywhere, elevators, staircases, a nice-looking crypt beneath the cathedral and unpassable gates strewn about with no purpose except not to make the cathedral too easy to get around in. There are VERY few places to hide, as well. After roaming about almost aimlessly for 15 minutes I found a room with a readable telling me the location of the Portal: On the roof. So I make my way there, and had to get up to the roof from the other end of the cathedral, then make my away topside across the whole damn building. That alone took me about 10 minutes. Then I reach the Portal - heavily guarded by Hammerites, and then Garrett starts talking to himself...aaaannndd he says that the Portal needs to be powered up before it can be used, and a New Objective pops up to find the generator. Bet you money it's in the crypts below, the point FURTHEST AWAY from the Portal.

I didn't bother to check, I just quit then and there. I feel like uninstalling the whole campaign and just leaving it to rot.

I'm sorry, but these two last missions are just SO BAD that they kill any interest for me to keep playing. Mission 5 has an interesting setting, but horrible game design decisions kill any and all interest to play it through.

Both missions employ design decisions that are not just unlike Thief, but either ignore or run counter to Thief's ideals. Timed objectives and no loot requirements go a long ways towards sucking all the "Thief" out of this.

 

[Morat]

Basically the more objectives you complete the more areas open. This is contrary to Thief's design and unlike the original version which only had a few, this one is FULL of that crap.

I have mixed feelings about this sort of design decision. Night One of "The Seven Sisters" did this as well, and nobody seems to complain about that. I haven't played KoI yet, but I'll admit that I hated the first mission of Seven Sisters initially for that very reason, until I realized that it helps to make this mission focused and the story to progress logically (and then I loved it). Obviously, it will piss off the player if the progression is stupidly illogical like the way it sounds to be in KoI.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

I gave up with Keeper of Infinity, I didn't even try to go further with the previous version. A good old ragequit, and I rarely do so. I managed to finish his other mission, Lost in Far Edges or whatever, and it was painful enough.

I was hoping he would have fixed it, but judging by the frustration on TTLG and from Skacky it got even worse. It sure looks amazing, I'll give him that, but I'm not gonna waste my time.

So, lost in the far edges is his? That mission was in a contest, and was very weird. But also un-completable without an walkthrough.

 

[SlyFoxx]

You can enter the cathedral from the icy river...a hole in the foundation wall leads to the lower crypts.

Poison is hardly a time limit as so many healing potions can be found. I tested this campaign from the beginning and not once did I ever come close to dying from the poison.

As far as activating the portals ...this is done via a floor switch in each of two labs just below top/attic level where the portal is located...

If you want more time you can play on normal IIRC. I always tested expert first...never ran out of time.

There are very few spots where the ice breaks...at the moment I can't even recall one.

Potions and gas arrows can be found and they do make the mad dash (which makes sense in this mission) for the portal easier. One of the few times where abandoning stealth for "Bwaaa run run run fuck you hammers!!" really fits the story.

AKOTP has many many flaws. But it's also one of the early grand FM achievements. How many "break into a guarded mansion, steal another nobleman's priceless trinket and leave quietly" missions do we need?

 

[JarlFrank]

JarlFrank: That's some neat initial steps. My criticism/recommendations:

• Your spaces are too big. If you cut the square by half, it would still be pretty large. The mansion also has a giant footprint - if you carve it all out, you will either have very big rooms or a very large mission.

Yeah, pretty much my own impression too, it turned out larger than I like. Probably because right after Garrett's house, I did the square with the fountain and allocated too much space for it. The mansion's size is a direct result from that, because that's basically just the edges of the square's airbrush. After all the fiddling with the details I don't really want to change too much, since I'd have to downscale pretty much everything, and I cannot into multibrushes yet so that would be a lot of fiddling around. I'll probably add some more details around the square to make it less empty and break up the regularity.

Don't worry about the mansion, though, I'm not going to map out the entire thing. There are only three or four rooms you can get into, and it's accessed by a side window on the left side (it's a place you'll pass by anyway on your way to another objective). And for the interior rooms, I already took some advice from general design tips on several dromed tutorials: breaking the cube, adding some texture variety on walls, etc, and a more proper size.

The streets leading to the other areas of the mission are a little bit too long, too, I think. Since I haven't added much detail there yet, I'm going to cut them down quite a bit, and I'll try making them less straight and square in appearance than they're now.

• Things are very regular, neat and flat. The less neat they end up, the better. Try some odd angles, add a wedge or two, bring out the third dimension (even if only a balcony you can climb from a market stall). Even something like a less regular flower pattern can help.

Yeah, I've been doing things symmetrically most of the time, and only with rectangular brushes (apart from the roofs). In another area of the mission, I built a tower with some wedges on the walls, and it looks so much better than the purely square buildings, it's incredible. I'm noticing how important it is to break the square.

• There is a lot of architectural repetition, like the row of windows on the left. Break up the pattern with something different, something irregular or something that doesn't belong there.

Yeah, it's very symmetrical, and very flat. The flatness is probably the one thing that contributes the most to the noobish look. Adding more angles and making everything less square will probably do the trick, and in the next area I'm designing, I'll definitely experiment more with wedges and cylinders. It's insane how a handful of non-rectangular shapes can add much more than a dozen decorative objects.

• The ambient light is too high. It is much better to have it lower, and rely on high light-dark contrasts. Try the same scene with a lower ambient value (I think you have the default - go for a value of 4 to 6). Also, the more complex the architecture, the more interresting and varied the shadows. But the shadows can hide even relatively simple architecture!

Nope, I didn't use the default in that screenshot. I used the default at first but then I immediately looked up how to change it, because it was so horribly bright, I wasn't even fully hidden in the darkness! Current level is around 20 I think, or even 15, while the default setting was 60. It made me think something's wrong with my lighting because everything was too bright.

• If you can help it, don't use too many Thief 2 stock textures, but try to go for something more saturated and varied.

For now I haven't installed any other textures than the stock ones, but I already looked up how to do that, so I might add a good texture pack or two soon. Got any recommendations?

 

[Melan]

If you want to close in the square without rebuilding the area, you could put an extra building to the left of the flowerbed. Cover that area with construction, and the scale issues improve.

WRT the facades, yeah, a few outcropping cylindrical shapes can help (and they are fairly easy). Maybe breaking up the lower floor a bit with arches, adding some horizontal trim... Keep complicating the scene, and with some time, it will look much better.

I don't know about the more recent texture packs, but Dromed Deluxe has the TDP classics, and some more. It is a good start.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

You can enter the cathedral from the icy river...a hole in the foundation wall leads to the lower crypts.

Poison is hardly a time limit as so many healing potions can be found. I tested this campaign from the beginning and not once did I ever come close to dying from the poison.

As far as activating the portals ...this is done via a floor switch in each of two labs just below top/attic level where the portal is located...

If you want more time you can play on normal IIRC. I always tested expert first...never ran out of time.

There are very few spots where the ice breaks...at the moment I can't even recall one.

Potions and gas arrows can be found and they do make the mad dash (which makes sense in this mission) for the portal easier. One of the few times where abandoning stealth for "Bwaaa run run run fuck you hammers!!" really fits the story.

AKOTP has many many flaws. But it's also one of the early grand FM achievements. How many "break into a guarded mansion, steal another nobleman's priceless trinket and leave quietly" missions do we need?

I will try again. I was somewhat tired when I got to the cathedral, especially after the last mission.

My biggest relief is that there's an alternate entrance, it would have been heart-breaking for a mission on this scale to only have one way through.

 

[SlyFoxx]

As I recall there are also unlocked doors at ground level. The only hard part of the mission is a decent bit of "you can't get there from here" once inside. Closed gates for the most part hinder direct access...using the outside roofs and ledges helps...as does moving quickly on same to save time.

EDIT: no unlocked doors at ground level in that mission. My bad.

 

[Morat]

How many "break into a guarded mansion, steal another nobleman's priceless trinket and leave quietly" missions do we need?

This times a hundred. There is far, far too much snobbery and prejudice in Thief communities about what a Thief FM "should" be. God help the unsuspecting FM author that dares to stray from the formula. Unkillable Cat, your tirades reek of this. Timed objectives and no loot requirements? "THAT'S NOT THIEF!!!" Player has to sneak through Murkbell with no equipment after getting double-crossed? "THAT'S BAD DESIGN! WRONG!!!," as if there's some Platonic, ideal Thief fan mission.

For all their quirks, mistakes, and flaws, fan missions like CL and KOTP can and should still be enjoyed and their authors applauded for trying new things, instead of having their missions simply written off as "horribly designed".

 

[Max_b5]

There's a lot of difference between trying new things and bad design. Unfortunately these two things are often encountered together because some authors just want the player to keep playing their fms as long as possible and have their TTLG thread full of messages asking for clues to make them feel clever and relevant. Not every FM that tries new things are badly designed and I can name you two authors that serve as great examples: Nameless Voice and Haplo. An FM has bad design when the author introduces new mechanics or features that the player has no clue about whatsoever and they don't even bother to warn you in the readme file.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

This times a hundred. There is far, far too much snobbery and prejudice in Thief communities about what a Thief FM "should" be. God help the unsuspecting FM author that dares to stray from the formula. Unkillable Cat, your tirades reek of this. Timed objectives and no loot requirements? "THAT'S NOT THIEF!!!"

Precisely, that's not Thief. The "timed objectives" is a personal opinion of mine so feel free to hold that against me, but why bother having loot in a Thief mission when it serves no purpose whatsoever, especially in a mission campaign? It's like making a Doom WAD without guns: Interesting experiment, but ultimately a waste of everyone's time.

That Garrett is there to steal things to fund his lifestyle is the red thread that goes through the entire series. That doesn't mean that it should be in the foreground the whole time, but abandoning it completely is a big departure from the basic concept of the game.

Player has to sneak through Murkbell with no equipment after getting double-crossed? "THAT'S BAD DESIGN! WRONG!!!," as if there's some Platonic, ideal Thief fan mission.

There isn't. What there IS, however, is a set of standards in design, goals and execution, laid down not only by the Thief games, but the Dark Engiine itself. It's an engine created to suit a stealth game, yet has proven itself time and time again to be a very versatile and flexible engine. That does NOT mean, however, that it's a multipurpose game engine like Unity, there are some gaming elements that the Dark Engine should not be trying. (Platforming is a personal favourite of mine in that regard.)

What I find strange is that you pick two of the weakest points from my tirade. The double-cross is a story trope issue, while sneaking through Murkbell isn't even an issue for me, I merely comment on it and point out that it's a challenge. The bigger issue I have with that part is that before the timed objective the city is almost barren of guards and coppers, but once the timed objective has been completed the city is suddenly full of them, for no reason. "Critters spawned out of thin air" is another personal peeve of mine of what should not be a in a Thief mission, but it can be made to work right. Murkbell is a good example of both: The Undead spawn makes sense because they're not something you see normally out in the streets (and they were summoned by magic after all) and the copper/guard one doesn't make sense for that exact same reason.

For all their quirks, mistakes, and flaws, fan missions like CL and KOTP can and should still be enjoyed and their authors applauded for trying new things, instead of having their missions simply written off as "horribly designed".

should still be enjoyed

should

I've answered idiocy like that before.

And I have nothing against authors trying new things. As long as they know the limits of their medium of choice.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

How many "break into a guarded mansion, steal another nobleman's priceless trinket and leave quietly" missions do we need?

More, more, more... I want them forever...

This times a hundred. There is far, far too much snobbery and prejudice in Thief communities about what a Thief FM "should" be. God help the unsuspecting FM author that dares to stray from the formula. Unkillable Cat, your tirades reek of this. Timed objectives and no loot requirements? "THAT'S NOT THIEF!!!" Player has to sneak through Murkbell with no equipment after getting double-crossed? "THAT'S BAD DESIGN! WRONG!!!," as if there's some Platonic, ideal Thief fan mission.

For all their quirks, mistakes, and flaws, fan missions like CL and KOTP can and should still be enjoyed and their authors applauded for trying new things, instead of having their missions simply written off as "horribly designed".

I don't agree with Unk Cat about calendra, but KOTP scale is "too much" and unecessary, specially when some missions consist of very straight forward objectives. And these are very old missions, I can forgive that. But keeper of infinity? It's beautiful and a technical achievement, but gameplay in that FM should be as description/meaning of the word "Frustration" in every dictionary. I played Lost in the far edges when it was released, and it was another graphical achievement in a small mission, but also with terrible gameplay. Pixel hunting in 3d. I didn't know it was from the same author. A pity, I like the graphics and level design/architecture, but the content is limiting, you can't progress unless you do in just the one way intended (even when intuition tell you to try another logic way) which is completely against what thief is. It's like it's made to indulge the ego of the author in his TTLG theread, which so many questions about solutions that would make hundreds of pages... which seems a measure of success for some. You can't shoot rope arrows on wood. You have to cut bushes with your sword, and as a veteran thief player I never had done this before playing this mission. And there's no clue that you're able to do this.

I've recent played through Cryptic Realms, which is aesthetically one of the most beautiful missions (the B&W version, anyway, which I played), it has challenging objectives, and guess what? Some are optional, which makes you able to complete the mission without resorting to a walkthrough to make progress. Unkillable Cat praised it, while he (IIRC) bashed the dracula campaign, from the same author. A I bring this because Sensut re-released his missions time and again, and looks like the new versions tone-down some excesively pixel hunting present in it.

Another ambitious project is COSAS 2: Mission X. It's very diferent from normal thief, but you have lot's of way to complete the mission.

And yes, there are ideal thief missions, and it's not platonic because they actually exist.

 

[JarlFrank]

There's a lot of difference between trying new things and bad design. Unfortunately these two things are often encountered together because some authors just want the player to keep playing their fms as long as possible and have their TTLG thread full of messages asking for clues to make them feel clever and relevant. Not every FM that tries new things are badly designed and I can name you two authors that serve as great examples: Nameless Voice and Haplo. An FM has bad design when the author introduces new mechanics or features that the player has no clue about whatsoever and they don't even bother to warn you in the readme file.

Pretty much that, and there are some elements in even the badly designed missions that are really awesome, like the shoes that make your footsteps more silent on all surfaces introduced in King's Story. Too bad it's never mentioned anywhere that they do, and that the rest of the mission is way too arcane and obscure in its design to be truly enjoyable.

I like missions that introduce new stuff, as long as it's fun. If I play through a mission and the only thing I liked was the author's technical skill and creative ideas, then something is lacking: the gameplay enjoyment.

Some things are just objectively design flaws, no matter if it's Thief or a different game.