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Thief fan missions and campaigns

Dev_Anj

Learned
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
468
Location
Auldale, near the great river
He started actively working on dromed with Skacky I think, he lacks experience and makes a few beginner's mistakes, but he does have good ideas overall.

New fan mission authors are always welcome as they can bring fresh new styles, or just have very good reinterpretations of classic mission concepts. They can learn quite a bit from the people who made missions earlier and have no existing baggage which could drag down their efforts.

If this is his first released mission, it's quite impressive. Many new authors tend to have their first missions be a bit underwhelming, so he seems to have quite some promise, as long as he doesn't screw up in the future.
 

Melan

Arcane
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Oct 20, 2012
Messages
6,974
Location
Civitas Quinque Ecclesiae, Hungary
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None that I'm aware of. He's been around the french community for years, maybe tried a couple things with dromed, but never released a mission by himself. He started actively working on dromed with Skacky I think, he lacks experience and makes a few beginner's mistakes, but he does have good ideas overall.
That's very impressive work for a beginner. Real talent.

When I betatested the mission, the brothel was even more frustrating, skacky fixed a couple issues but it's still very hard. I wonder how a ghoster would handle it. However the whole thing still is excellent.
I typically ghost missions, and try to ghost this one. The first was fairly easy (except for the alchemist/anatomy theatre with the lady and the guard), but I gave up in the brothel. I actually progressed fairly well, but when I reached the madame, I just snapped and switched to an aggressive blackjack run. So that's how. Maybe the real experts like Klatremus & co can handle it, they are much better than me. :D
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
34,375
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Yeah, the mission is very impressive for a beginner, but since it's a collaborative effort I wonder how much help he received with stuff. I hope he tries to build something on his own, I loved the city part of the first mission.
 

skacky

3D Realms
Developer
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Messages
2,506
Location
The City
I didn't have to modify his stuff much. I did some work on one or two facades and did some basic rooms he later decorated (mostly the last floor in Goldenbaum), but everything else is his work.
Also, you were right: top picture is my work, bottom is his.
 

Tel Velothi

Cipher
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
828
Location
beneath a lonely desert sun
I don't want to create seperate thread for this, but here it goes:

1. How do you explain knocking out with blackjack? I mean the enemy is knocked out for the entire mission for 2 hours or so and doesn't wake up? It's strange.
2. Is ghosting in Thief missions possible? (no knock outs + not seen)
 

Kirkpatrick

Cipher
Joined
Apr 16, 2013
Messages
773
Realism is not the end and be all, but even so, one can be knocked out for 2 hours, 5 hours or 15 minutes.

Ghosting is of course viable option in many many Thief missions.
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
3,060
Location
Brazil
Divinity: Original Sin
Skacky,I'm downloading the chalice of the soul now, and I use garrettloader. Do I have to change that type thing like it suggests doing for darkloader? And the scripts.zip file? do I have to use it or is it necessary only for the FMselect?
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
34,375
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Skacky,I'm downloading the chalice of the soul now, and I use garrettloader. Do I have to change that type thing like it suggests doing for darkloader? And the scripts.zip file? do I have to use it or is it necessary only for the FMselect?

I use DarkLoader and scripts.zip wasn't necessary, but changing mission type was and should be for garretloader too because the game version is detected as Thief 2, so you manually have to set it to T1.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,404
I don't want to create seperate thread for this, but here it goes:

1. How do you explain knocking out with blackjack? I mean the enemy is knocked out for the entire mission for 2 hours or so and doesn't wake up? It's strange.
2. Is ghosting in Thief missions possible? (no knock outs + not seen)
1. It is a video game, realism is optional.
2. Totally possible and the best way to play, blackjacking is too much of an easy way out on the original campaign missions and most FMs, unless the author took the blackjacking in consideration and spread helmet wearing guards, loud floor tiles and more guard patrols.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,404
Yeah, I know, but maybe you have some "LARP" explanation, like Garret is tying them and gagging, so they stay in place.
Imagine Garret is causing some severe brain trauma and that the Hammerites are super efficient with healing spells.
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
3,060
Location
Brazil
Divinity: Original Sin
Skacky, I went through the room with the levers, and...

...found a lever behind some pipes (close to a hole on the window), in the room with the lightning beams, and I hear a rumble. I can't see where it is... what does it do?

Oh, and I found the gas arrow, but it was to late since I've dealt with the hamerites in the roulette room... in a messy way.

Oh, and some of the guards are with really bad textures...
 
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skacky

3D Realms
Developer
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Messages
2,506
Location
The City
The lever behind the pipes opens a trapdoor in a nearby machine.

What do you mean bad textures?
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
3,060
Location
Brazil
Divinity: Original Sin
Some guards in the sewers, and the sewer workers... I'll put a picture when I get home.

About the switch:

the trapdor is in the same room?
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
3,060
Location
Brazil
Divinity: Original Sin
I got the loot, but that lever is unrelated to that, isn't it?

Edit:

I believe that lever opens the panel with the lightning beams switch, but when I played I did things in a way that i didn't realize they were connected, since when I found the beam's switch, it was open, maybe because I previously used the hidden lever and tried to find a door or something.

and the texture problem:

rqTShY2.png


FMaPU1H.png
 
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Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
3,060
Location
Brazil
Divinity: Original Sin
Eh, I just assumed it was a shitty low res texture.

Well, some of the ai has low poligon count and shit textures, while other are on a thief 2 level. It's not actually bothering me, I only noticed it after a while, and my doubt is if that was a problem with my game.
 

Unkillable Cat

LEST WE FORGET
Patron
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
28,574
Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
I noticed this as well. It's especially apparent with the "serfs" model, like the one you find at the entrance to the sewers and in the brothel.

Then again the default T1 models looked horrible, and since this mod asks that all graphical enhancements be disabled, it was only to be expected...unless I missed something somewhere.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
34,375
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Yeah I use Thief 2 models, and this FM has some new textures (maybe models too? but definitely textures) in the classic Thief 1 style. The whores have clothes that are supposed to look sexy but looks hilarious instead thanks to the low res textures :D
 

Unkillable Cat

LEST WE FORGET
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28,574
Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
There's been another T2 FM released for the Summer Contest, and I just had a run through it.

"Roofs of Gold" has Garrett falling for the old Troll's Breath trick at the bar - drink that one drink on the menu that knocks you out cold, then wake up with all your stuff stolen. With Garrett being the Master Thief, that's more than insulting.

The map is just this one small courtyard, but look up and you'll see where the challenge of the mission lies. It's a vertical dance-on-ledges and climb in through windows affair, and it does that pretty well...except when it's being a douchebag and denies you from mantling on a few ledges ON PURPOSE.

The mission's biggest fault is a rather big one - it's Really Fucking Annoying to play. You have no gear, not even your lockpicks, yet it won't take long to find lots of locked containers scattered about. One lockpick can be found pretty early on, but only ONE lock can be opened with just that lockpick - you have to find the other lockpick to open all the rest, and where's that located? At the highest point of the FM, for which you need to either find a rope arrow or make one hell of a running jump. So this FM has a Metroidvania approach to how things are done. You need to get past the rope arrow/running jump spot to find your blackjack and the sword is found in the first container you come across, but requires both lockpicks to open. That means that there's a lot of backtracking involved which gets very tiresome very quickly.

But by far the most annoying aspect of this FM are the jump scares. You read that right, jump scares. Loud noises are played at certain locations in an attempt to create "atmosphere" or "suspense". There are dummy mannequins EVERYWHERE and they're most often up to no good. You can get flashbombed in the face, have arrows and other things thrown/fired about and at one time hostile critters are spawned in the previous room just for a laugh. The problem with these jumpscares is that they're too many and too predictable, they wear out their welcome too fast. The only time I smiled through the whole FM was when Garrett said "I've had enough of this" while crawling along a ledge high up - I knew exactly how he felt.

One final point of annoyance that I feel is best to inform taffers of before they try this mission - right near the start there's an unfrobbable door that seems to do nothing. But examine it closely and you'll find four small bowls on the walls beside it. You're supposed to find four coins throughout the mission and then use them here to open this door and proceed to the final part. These four bowls are very hard to see because they're the exact same colour as the wall they're hanging on, another deliberate design decision that does nothing but annoy players because there's no hint or clue about this door.

Readables are basic and could be better, but at least they aren't confusing and get the job done.

Overall? It's hard to recommend this one. It's fun to explore the place, but actually getting anything done is just painful. The annoyances of the mission make it more challenging than your average FM, but that's meaningless if the player is too pissed off to want to continue.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
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Messages
34,375
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KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Eh, I never enjoyed the kinds of missions that derive their "challenge" by having annoying design that tests your patience. Challenge should be in sneaking through heavily guarded areas, exploring everywhere by use of ropes and trying alternate approaches, and maybe a puzzle or two. When the "challenge" consists of hunting for hard-to-see keys, having to find that one hidden piece of equipment without which you can't progress one step further, or combing 10 rooms for that one tiny little switch behind a bed, it's not challenging but frustrating.

The missions I enjoy most give the player a handful of gear and throw him into a big, freely exploreable area, be it a town or a tomb or a mansion. Exploration, sneaking, blackjacking, maybe some puzzlesolving. When you require the player to absolutely find X first before he can do Y, and only after both he can progress to Z, and the order in which you have to do these things is always the same, it's not Thief anymore because that's too linear.
 

tannisroot

Barely Literate
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Messages
4
...blackjacking is too much of an easy way out on the original campaign missions and most FMs, unless the author took the blackjacking in consideration and spread helmet wearing guards, loud floor tiles and more guard patrols.

The blackjack is a bit of a "choose your own difficulty" stick. It can definitely subvert the map's challenge unless the author explicitly restrict its use - not necessarily a bad thing. There are a lot of people that got into Thief (2) because of the atmosphere and level design, not so much the challenge.

Ironically, the community sees the sword as a noob weapon, but it's actually more challenging when you think about it: it's slower, leaves blood stains that eat your time and water arrows, and the sword requires more skill to take out an alerted guard. That said, on expert difficulty, where most of the community plays, the sword's use is often restricted to slashing banners and killing undead.

Personally I find the BJ has so few penalties - with its quick attack and extended range when combined with the forward lean - it's hard to find a happy medium between ghosting and taking out guards in droves. Usually I just ghost with the odd KO if the frustration level gets too high. But that requires some self control I don't always have :p

I prefer the KO system Dishonored and Neon Struct use that functions much the same way except with a few second time penalty.

Oh and key hunts suck. I play Thief for the atmosphere and nothing kills immersion like bunny hopping around an empty level for the nth time searching every corner for some damn secret or another to allow me to proceed.

I think some authors like keyhunts because it necessitates community interaction and makes them feel clever when their inbox is filled with begging appeals for solutions.
 
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JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
34,375
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I think some authors like keyhunts because it necessitates community interaction and makes them feel clever when their inbox is filled with begging appeals for solutions.

Some people in the community associate pixel hunting with challenge for some reason, and when anyone complains about a mission relying too much on finding hidden switches and keys that are almost impossible to see with little hints to their whereabouts, they're told that maybe the mission is just too difficult for them and it has been made for expert thief players who like a challenge. I read a lot of those kinds of arguments in the thread about King's Story, a very beautiful mission with idiotic linear-ish design like that, that is difficult because it gives you few clues on what to do while requiring you to do exactly what the author intended in order to progress. Unkillable Cat has written a few good paragraphs about that mission's design somewhere in this thread.

There have been a few missions with heavy keyhunting that I enjoyed... DESPITE the keyhunt, not because of it. I tend to play these with a walkthrough open to reduce the frustration, because they can be immensely frustrating and make you ragequit. Forgotten Forest I and especially II are two missions like that - I rate my missions when I finish them, and they both have "Good 7/10 (but lots of switch & key hunting)" as a comment. Without that, they could've been 8/10 I think. The second mission has a couple of small switches you absolutely need to find in order to progress, and one of them was so small and so well-hidden I had to look for it for several minutes even with a walkthrough telling me the exact location.

Not fun, and I don't see what's supposed to be challenging about it. Challenge is to rope-arrow up to a high place, sneak around without alerting guards, or solving a puzzle with a handful of clues. Randomly looking through 5 rooms for a switch that is somewhere isn't challenging. If it were, looking for my car keys when I forgot where I put them would be awesome Thief gameplay.
 

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