yellowcake
Arcane
This is why Witcher 1 is the best of Witcher games. As far as game systems and lore appropriateness go, W1 alchemy is their greatest achievement.
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The Witcher 3 GOTY Edition
- Thread starter Infinitron
- Start date
Lazing Dirk
Arcane
I got The Witcher 3 as a present this past Christmas, and finally got around to playing it. About 40 hours in, level 18 or so, done a whole bunch of exploring and side quests, but frankly I'm getting pretty bored. (Yes, 40 hours is a fairly sizable amount of time, get over it. I thought you were supposed to play this thing for hundreds of hours.)
The combat is one of the biggest issues. Pretty much every fight is just light attack, dodge, repeat. Or maybe 2 light attacks. Sometimes I'll throw in a heavy attack or use one of my signs, but in the end I'm fighting everything the same way. Dog, drowner, bandit, wraith, werewolf, wyvern, it doesn't matter. Sometimes there's some minor variety because they'll charge at you or whatever, but then it just means I need to dodge to the side instead of backwards. Amazing. I still need to get about 3 or 4 more levels before I can unlock some sort of extra ability, but I doubt it'll make the combat much more interesting. You can parry stuff, but most things seemingly can't be parried and just hit you, so it's only ever useful in fist fights, or maybe for sword 'n' board guys. It's unnecessary most of the time anyway.
Most of the quests are boring shit too. Talk to person, get some exposition ("My turtle ran off into the woods go get it back"), go to marker, use witcher senses, click on red stuff, follow red stuff, kill thing, return to quest giver. Words cannot describe the sense of achievement I get from managing to click on red things. Bandits cower in fear at my red-thing-clicking abilities. Maybe some times they'll mix it up and I might have to go listen to 2 or 3 different dialogues by boring fuckwits before I get to click more red things. Wew.
Speaking of boring fuckwits, I've started skipping over most of the dialogue. There just doesn't seem to be much point in listening to it. People hardly ever say anything funny, or interesting, or witty, or clever. It's just endless piles of shit I don't care about, and 2,000 variations on "A thing happened; solve thing". About the only amusing thing so far was Dijkstra's comment about Dandelion's poetry, or the guard for Vernon Roche talking about bird watching. If only I could express my dissatisfaction in the dialogue, but for the vast majority of conversations the only options are "Explain what you said some more" and "Please continue". It seems the developers have a very firm idea of what Geralt would and wouldn't do or say, and you're not allowed to stray from that, aside from the occasional choice to kill someone or let them live/ignore them. Frequently I get given a choice between 2 dialogue options, and to me neither one made sense.
Then there's this fucking retarded level system that arbitrarily makes things stronger for no discernible reason. Two examples of this nonsense:
One time I was riding around, and saw some water hag or whatever. "No problem", I thought. After all, I've already killed about 10 of those. I ride up to it on horseback, and once I get within about 6 feet of the thing, I notice its level is "??". It swings at me once as I ride past and I'm dead. From full health to nothing in one slap. What? Is this one blessed by the elder gods? Does it have serrated titanium claws coated in neurotoxins? It looks and acts exactly the same as all the other shitters, appears to have no particularly interesting background or location. It's just a random demi-god in the corner of a swamp.
Furthermore, last night I was riding around and bumbled into some dudes who greeted me and asked me to help with some bandits. Yeah, sure, whatever. Little did I realise this was actually a level 34-ish quest. So we wait for the bandits, go outside, and there's a short cutscene. Yep, shitty bandits in shittier armour wielding shitty weapons and shitty shields. Big whoop. But once the cutscene starts, I see they're all "??" level again. I hit one with an attack, get a critical, and it takes off approximately 5% of their health. And there's about 20 of these guys. Are you fucking kidding me. But hey, guess what? They're still just shitty bandits with shitty bandit AI, so over the next 10 minutes or so, I slowly wear them all down. Strike, dodge, strike, dodge. I have to repair my sword about 4 times, but I eventually get them all, while my "friends" just wail on someone's shield the whole time getting nowhere. The bandits get in the odd hit now and then and take off half my health (lol), but I get through it (thanks, life leech potion). What's my reward for this slog? 100xp, a few junk weapons, a fish, and some thread. For fuck sake. So quest rewards a few levels below me get scaled down to literally 1 or 2 xp, but completing one far above my level gets me nothing extra whatsoever.
As far as I can tell, the weapons and armour you get at level 30+ are only maybe 2 or 3 times stronger than what I have, yet this is clearly not the only factor at play. There's no rhyme or reason for those bandits to be so much stronger than I am except for an arbitrary number plastered next to their name. Were they truly that strong, they should've taken over the whole island by now. Hell, I could hire them to take on the Wild Hunt. If I'd been facing off against some knights in magically-enhanced heavy armour, then fine. But this was just the same garbage nonsense I've been seeing the entire game, yet they could beat the snot out of Geralt with a rusty iron sword. What next, a level 20 wolf? A level 35 drowner? Get fucked. It's baffling that a game that otherwise has such a high level of polish has such a shit level system. I thought we got past this palette-swap nonsense years ago.
Oh, and puzzles too. Where are they? And no, I don't mean this witcher senses nonsense. Walking around clicking on red things is not a fucking puzzle. About the only one I can think of so far was about lighting some statues in a specific order, and that took all of 10 seconds to solve. Please, for the love of god, give me something interesting to do. I'll even happily turn some pillars around so they show pictures of birds. Something. Anything.
Maybe I need to install some mod(s) and/or slog through to the (apparently more fun) expansions, but so far I'm not terribly impressed by SUPER AMAZING GAME OF THE YEAR.
Fuck me that was longer than I'd planned.
The combat is one of the biggest issues. Pretty much every fight is just light attack, dodge, repeat. Or maybe 2 light attacks. Sometimes I'll throw in a heavy attack or use one of my signs, but in the end I'm fighting everything the same way. Dog, drowner, bandit, wraith, werewolf, wyvern, it doesn't matter. Sometimes there's some minor variety because they'll charge at you or whatever, but then it just means I need to dodge to the side instead of backwards. Amazing. I still need to get about 3 or 4 more levels before I can unlock some sort of extra ability, but I doubt it'll make the combat much more interesting. You can parry stuff, but most things seemingly can't be parried and just hit you, so it's only ever useful in fist fights, or maybe for sword 'n' board guys. It's unnecessary most of the time anyway.
Most of the quests are boring shit too. Talk to person, get some exposition ("My turtle ran off into the woods go get it back"), go to marker, use witcher senses, click on red stuff, follow red stuff, kill thing, return to quest giver. Words cannot describe the sense of achievement I get from managing to click on red things. Bandits cower in fear at my red-thing-clicking abilities. Maybe some times they'll mix it up and I might have to go listen to 2 or 3 different dialogues by boring fuckwits before I get to click more red things. Wew.
Speaking of boring fuckwits, I've started skipping over most of the dialogue. There just doesn't seem to be much point in listening to it. People hardly ever say anything funny, or interesting, or witty, or clever. It's just endless piles of shit I don't care about, and 2,000 variations on "A thing happened; solve thing". About the only amusing thing so far was Dijkstra's comment about Dandelion's poetry, or the guard for Vernon Roche talking about bird watching. If only I could express my dissatisfaction in the dialogue, but for the vast majority of conversations the only options are "Explain what you said some more" and "Please continue". It seems the developers have a very firm idea of what Geralt would and wouldn't do or say, and you're not allowed to stray from that, aside from the occasional choice to kill someone or let them live/ignore them. Frequently I get given a choice between 2 dialogue options, and to me neither one made sense.
Then there's this fucking retarded level system that arbitrarily makes things stronger for no discernible reason. Two examples of this nonsense:
One time I was riding around, and saw some water hag or whatever. "No problem", I thought. After all, I've already killed about 10 of those. I ride up to it on horseback, and once I get within about 6 feet of the thing, I notice its level is "??". It swings at me once as I ride past and I'm dead. From full health to nothing in one slap. What? Is this one blessed by the elder gods? Does it have serrated titanium claws coated in neurotoxins? It looks and acts exactly the same as all the other shitters, appears to have no particularly interesting background or location. It's just a random demi-god in the corner of a swamp.
Furthermore, last night I was riding around and bumbled into some dudes who greeted me and asked me to help with some bandits. Yeah, sure, whatever. Little did I realise this was actually a level 34-ish quest. So we wait for the bandits, go outside, and there's a short cutscene. Yep, shitty bandits in shittier armour wielding shitty weapons and shitty shields. Big whoop. But once the cutscene starts, I see they're all "??" level again. I hit one with an attack, get a critical, and it takes off approximately 5% of their health. And there's about 20 of these guys. Are you fucking kidding me. But hey, guess what? They're still just shitty bandits with shitty bandit AI, so over the next 10 minutes or so, I slowly wear them all down. Strike, dodge, strike, dodge. I have to repair my sword about 4 times, but I eventually get them all, while my "friends" just wail on someone's shield the whole time getting nowhere. The bandits get in the odd hit now and then and take off half my health (lol), but I get through it (thanks, life leech potion). What's my reward for this slog? 100xp, a few junk weapons, a fish, and some thread. For fuck sake. So quest rewards a few levels below me get scaled down to literally 1 or 2 xp, but completing one far above my level gets me nothing extra whatsoever.
As far as I can tell, the weapons and armour you get at level 30+ are only maybe 2 or 3 times stronger than what I have, yet this is clearly not the only factor at play. There's no rhyme or reason for those bandits to be so much stronger than I am except for an arbitrary number plastered next to their name. Were they truly that strong, they should've taken over the whole island by now. Hell, I could hire them to take on the Wild Hunt. If I'd been facing off against some knights in magically-enhanced heavy armour, then fine. But this was just the same garbage nonsense I've been seeing the entire game, yet they could beat the snot out of Geralt with a rusty iron sword. What next, a level 20 wolf? A level 35 drowner? Get fucked. It's baffling that a game that otherwise has such a high level of polish has such a shit level system. I thought we got past this palette-swap nonsense years ago.
Oh, and puzzles too. Where are they? And no, I don't mean this witcher senses nonsense. Walking around clicking on red things is not a fucking puzzle. About the only one I can think of so far was about lighting some statues in a specific order, and that took all of 10 seconds to solve. Please, for the love of god, give me something interesting to do. I'll even happily turn some pillars around so they show pictures of birds. Something. Anything.
Maybe I need to install some mod(s) and/or slog through to the (apparently more fun) expansions, but so far I'm not terribly impressed by SUPER AMAZING GAME OF THE YEAR.
Fuck me that was longer than I'd planned.
Beowulf
Arcane
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2015
- Messages
- 2,027
Yeah.
You should at least install the mod that removes
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Falksi
Arcane
Absolutely spot on chap. I've no idea why the main game gets the praise it does.
Fools Gold, Carnal Sins, & Bloody Baron. Do those 3 main game quests then skip to Blood & Wine if you have it. It's far better, still not amazing, but a damn sight more enjoyable largely because of better combat & more interesting dialogue/settings.
If you are skipping dialogue, there is no real point in playing 
This game is an interactive movie / detective procedural. Don't believe anyone telling you it's an RPG.
At low and middle difficulty, your character build choices don't matter one bit, and on higher difficulties, it's only the enemy damage that gets pumped up. Tactics remain the same, AI remains the same, you just have to be more careful not to get hit.
Once you get the rhythm of combat, it's pretty much as you described it. I suggest trying out the Enhanced Edition mod for more challenging combat, if you are into modding.
This game is an interactive movie / detective procedural. Don't believe anyone telling you it's an RPG. At low and middle difficulty, your character build choices don't matter one bit, and on higher difficulties, it's only the enemy damage that gets pumped up. Tactics remain the same, AI remains the same, you just have to be more careful not to get hit.
Once you get the rhythm of combat, it's pretty much as you described it. I suggest trying out the Enhanced Edition mod for more challenging combat, if you are into modding.
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Your training is nearly complete. There is nothing more I can teach you.
Fear not, for many inclined cRPGs remain: Ultima 7 using the Exult engine, Betrayal at Krondor, Wizardry 8, and others.
Lazing Dirk
Arcane
Well I haven't quite given up on it yet. I had a look into the mods for it, and that FCR3 looks pretty good for a start. Gets rid of the scaling bullshit (after looking around, apparently the bandits I faced had an 800% hp modifier applied due to their high level. That would explain why they were so hard to kill. What bollocks), and sounds like it would add more options to combat and build, along with other interesting tweaks. With the scaling removed, I'd like it if I could find a mod that hid the level indicator altogether, so I could just go by, "Well that thing looks scary so I'll give it a try but might have to run away", instead of, "Oh it says it's level 29, I guess I wont bother" (Edit: found one). Maybe remove the level restriction on gear too, since most of the good stuff requires crafting items I can't get yet anyway.
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You've discovered a phenomenon that is rarely mentioned and for which no specific terminology exists. I realized that it must exist years ago, in much the same way that scientists realize something exists due to its niche in a proven system, even if said thing isn't directly observed/hasn't been proven in and of itself.
I've chosen to call it "Fucking Asinine Inappropriate Level Scaling," or FAILS. Essentially, when an enemy is considered "too high" above your level by mentally handicapped and incompetent developers, it receives an additional secret stats boost far beyond what its stats would be if it weren't "too high" above your level.
This is absolute and indefensible decline of the highest caliber.
I've chosen to call it "Fucking Asinine Inappropriate Level Scaling," or FAILS. Essentially, when an enemy is considered "too high" above your level by mentally handicapped and incompetent developers, it receives an additional secret stats boost far beyond what its stats would be if it weren't "too high" above your level.
This is absolute and indefensible decline of the highest caliber.
Doktor Best
Arcane
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2015
- Messages
- 2,877
Given his critique i doubt that would salvage the game for him. Not all games are for everybody.
That's the problem, really. The Witcher 3 is for everybody, much like every other made-for-console declined RPG.
The game features Batman detective vision that leads you by the nose to investigation objectives (I've seen people seriously argue that this isn't as bad as a quest compass/markers), unsatisfying combat, stupid level scaling, and God knows what else. It's been quite a while since I've played, I only played a handful of hours, and I don't really remember much, but I clearly remember those things. I'm willing to bet there isn't much true complexity in level design in enclosed areas, either, and that most locations are disguised linear corridors with treasure nooks. Llack of proper puzzles is pretty much a given these days, because if someone gets stuck in a non-puzzle-centric game for more than two minutes, then they log onto Steam, give it a thumbs down, and then give it a 0 on Metacritic.
I realize that CDPR has a number of redeeming qualities as a studio, such as their willingness to eschew DRM. That's great. Even for that reason alone, I don't look down on someone for supporting their games.
Still, it's important to realize that this isn't a matter of taste. It's a matter of decline, albeit mechanical decline if the story's good and there's any C&C at all. Anyone who denies that this game is decline needs to play more incline in order to learn the difference. I suppose story alone can salvage it for dedicated storyfags.
The game features Batman detective vision that leads you by the nose to investigation objectives (I've seen people seriously argue that this isn't as bad as a quest compass/markers), unsatisfying combat, stupid level scaling, and God knows what else. It's been quite a while since I've played, I only played a handful of hours, and I don't really remember much, but I clearly remember those things. I'm willing to bet there isn't much true complexity in level design in enclosed areas, either, and that most locations are disguised linear corridors with treasure nooks. Llack of proper puzzles is pretty much a given these days, because if someone gets stuck in a non-puzzle-centric game for more than two minutes, then they log onto Steam, give it a thumbs down, and then give it a 0 on Metacritic.
I realize that CDPR has a number of redeeming qualities as a studio, such as their willingness to eschew DRM. That's great. Even for that reason alone, I don't look down on someone for supporting their games.
Still, it's important to realize that this isn't a matter of taste. It's a matter of decline, albeit mechanical decline if the story's good and there's any C&C at all. Anyone who denies that this game is decline needs to play more incline in order to learn the difference. I suppose story alone can salvage it for dedicated storyfags.
moon knight
Matt7895's alt
They are talking about the buffs NPCs get when they are 6+ level higher than you.
KateMicucci
Arcane
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2017
- Messages
- 1,676
Fantastic.
Consoling to level 50 and turning on enemy upscaling sounds like a good idea and a great way to skip the boring itemization in this game.
Let me put it another way:
If your character is level 20 and you're fighting an enemy who is also level 20, then let's arbitrarily assume that the enemy has 67 attack, 26 defense, and 300 HP.
If your character is instead level 10 and is fighting that exact same level 20 enemy, then FAILS is applied, and the enemy's stats are secretly boosted to 98 attack, 42 defense, and 450 HP.
Why do developers do this? Well, enemies are probably fairly easy to kill when the player's level is close, but difficult to kill if the enemies are much higher level. The developers don't want you to be able to kill higher-level enemies with difficulty, though. They don't want you to be able to kill higher-level enemies at all. Therefore, FAILS is applied.
This is thoroughly bad game design in every aspect. The ideal solution, of course, is for enemies that are close to your level to be difficult as-is, so that much higher-level enemies are nearly impossible naturally and organically without needing a fake cheat.
You're so right. I have a secret agenda to pretend that hidden and fake stat boosts are bad game design for the sole purpose of besmirching CDPR's good name.
I take it all back. Obviously, CDPR can do no wrong.
I take it all back. Obviously, CDPR can do no wrong.
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2013
- Messages
- 13,190
Wow, that's pretty retarded
Yes, if you are above the age of 10-15 and are not just now learning to use a controller, combat will be either boring or annoying (I have to hit them 5 times abd they kill me with two hits - "difficulty").
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- Joined
- Sep 14, 2016
- Messages
- 6,563
Eh, or they get more like 300 -> 2400 HP
I absolutely detest that also.
But it's prevalent in many games. Even blobbers. Was quite noticeable in Stranger of Sword City for example (not as jarring as in TW3 though).
Sykar
Arcane
Falksi
Arcane
It's fucking jarring to say the least. One minute you're taking on a massive monster and wiping the floor with it, the next a fat guard barely registers 20 blows you land on them.
But here's the thing for me, that's how the game SHOULD have been with the monsters on the whole. Nekkers, Ghouls, Rotfiends & such cannon fodder aside, after TW2's handling of the Kayren, I really thought there was an opportunity to fill TW3 with monsters which were only beatable through questing and actually roleplaying. Rare ingrediants to obtain to render a monster weak, certain monsters which are invlunerable unless various traps are placed correctly, lures which are required to entrap a monster & draw it into a state of vulnerability from which it can only be harmed by a sneak attack etc. etc.
Not only does the gay leveling system feel out of place, it also highlights how all the stuff which is meant to make you a Witcher - said traps, signs, and different approaches which you have in your arsenal to beat enemies - is totally fucking pointless, as when you encounter these enemies who FAILS they are fairly unbeatable no matter what approach you take (ironically, prob the best way is just to grind them down)
Honestly, how TW3's main game gets the praise it does is utterly beyond me. It does so many things badly. Both 1 & 2 gave you a FAR better "Witcher" experience, and were far better games too.
TW3 should have been about taking different approaches to beat what appear to be unbeatable enemies. Instead it just follows the usual "grind to win" approach. Pathetic.
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Doktor Best
Arcane
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2015
- Messages
- 2,877
Stat boosts on enemies way above your level are stupid, i agree, but it really isnt comparable to classic level scaling. Classic level scaling was implented to scale every encounter towards your power level. It completely destroyed the purpose of exploration and progression. Scaling like in Witcher 3 is the polar opposite to that.
Divinity Original Sin 1 did a similar thing with hitrates, which i also really didnt like. It is an arbitrary and lazy way to balance your game.
But a game with anti scaling can still be playable, while true levelscaling damages the core principle of rpgs in a much more fundamental way.
Divinity Original Sin 1 did a similar thing with hitrates, which i also really didnt like. It is an arbitrary and lazy way to balance your game.
But a game with anti scaling can still be playable, while true levelscaling damages the core principle of rpgs in a much more fundamental way.
Look, I'm not trying to expand or alter the basic definition of level scaling. I only used the term because it's a parallel concept that everyone already understands. All Codexers are (or should be) intimately familiar with it and with how terrible it is—unless it's implemented strategically, occasionally, subtly, and judiciously.
"Additional hidden stat bloat because fuck you you're not supposed to beat this yet" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
Since you've brought it up, though, FAILS isn't the opposite of level scaling at all. It's really a variant on the same concept. Instead of scaling enemies up or down to match the player's level, enemies that exceed the player's level by X are scaled up even further to ensure the player won't win. In action games like TW3 it might be possible to win anyway by being careful and patient, but even if you can win, a certain level of obnoxiousness will strongly encourage you to avoid such enemies until later. This is fine if there's no cheating involved, but if FAILS is used, it's extremely homosexual and annoying.
Mark Richard
Arcane
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2016
- Messages
- 1,214
I love the writing, but it's hard to deny the way we're required to interact with the quests is unengaging. The Witcher 3 is faithful to the source material and tries to capture a Witcher's versatile skillset of alchemist, private investigator, and swordmaster rolled into one. Unfortunately many of these roles aren't translated into compelling gameplay. I'm not saying alchemy should've been as involved as Kingdom Come: Deliverance, but it needed some kind of hook. Same with the breadcrumb investigations. The game simply doesn't trust a player's intelligence or resolve against a genuine obstacle.
The Quest for Glory format would be ideal for The Witcher.
This. I've always said that while Witcher 1 is a great, unique RPG and Witcher 2 still retains some of that, despite some dumbing down, Witcher 3 is a full-blown third person action adventure with RPG elements. It also sold 10x as much. They didn't trust players' intelligence and it paid off royally.
But while the RPG design and itemization are downright abysmal I wouldn't be so harsh with the quest design. In fact it's still probably the best ever, despite Kingdom Come being a strong rival. It has the best characters and writing of any game ever made. Ironically it shines the most when it jettisons all pretence of being an RPG and goes full open-world interactive movie, like in the HoS expansion.
The only thing that terrifies me about Witcher 3 is that due to its staggering sales every single dev studio and publisher will think "oh, so this is what a successful RPG should look like" and start aping it. We've already had Horizon ZD and AssCreed Origins. If that continues - which it will - then we'll look back with moist eyes at the golden age when everyone was aping Skyrim.
Mainstream triple A RPGs, dumbed down as they are, may even completely disappear, replaced by cinematic action adventures, without anyone even noticing.
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