KickStarter The Wayward Realms - upcoming Daggerfall-like RPG from original Elder Scrolls developers

[Bulo]

What's your guys estimated bear-sex scale on this one (1-10)? These guys are old school, but also old enough to probably not give a shit if they want to pull it out in public and slap me around with it a tad. Should I expect bestiality sex options in the game with this crew or more PG-13? I could just back their KS and ask there, but you guys are the experts so I'll defer to your wisdom.

Ted prefers orc content

 

[The Jester]

Was Daggerfall a "Grand RPG" too?

 

[Abu Antar]

Almost $300k. I wish them the best of luck, but I am not confident about this one, so I'll refrain from backing.

Kickstarter and crowd funded games have a history of gaining succes and renown.




Right?

I get what you mean. I haven't been scammed on crowdfunding sites. Closest one has to be Mechajammer.

I've had a fairly good feeling about what I back.

In this case, their goal seems very unrealistic, and finding a publisher is no easy feat. This is a 50/50 project, and that's too risky for me.

 

[NecroLord]

Almost $300k. I wish them the best of luck, but I am not confident about this one, so I'll refrain from backing.

Kickstarter and crowd funded games have a history of gaining succes and renown.




Right?

I get what you mean. I haven't been scammed on crowdfunding sites. Closest one has to be Mechajammer.

I've had a fairly good feeling about what I back.

In this case, their goal seems very unrealistic, and finding a publisher is no easy feat. This is a 50/50 project, and that's too risky for me.

Nostalgia bait.

 

[Gargaune]

The more I think about this, the more skeptical I get. I watched Gopher plug the project last night, but I felt like he missed a very, very important detail about what Once Lost are pitching - Kickstart a demo, which then gets shopped around to publishers and then, assuming they get one, it goes into full development. That's a very long-term plan for a project which, at this stage, has very little to show beside ideas. Kingdom Come: Deliverance's success gets brought up as a parallel, another major open-world RPG that began on Kickstarter, but Warhorse had already had private investment on their prototype before turning to crowdfunding to prove market viability.

Now, KCD was a milestone achievement from an industry perspective and a fantastic game by any metric, but when you think about it, it didn't set out to do anything revolutionary with its design. Yeah, it had unparalleled historical accuracy and some innovative mechanical components, like its armour layering and its combat, but none of these things posed critical technical challenges and from a purely structural perspective, it's not that different from something like Oblivion - i.e. a tried-and-tested concept.

This Wayward Realms pitch, however? Bringing something like Daggerfall's design scope in line with contemporary standards of fidelity and verisimilitude is a challenging proposition in and of itself, but Once Lost Games are actually pitching an expansion to that formula with their "Grand RPG" - changing seasons, "World Events" causing the dynamic rise and decay of cities, an AI "videogame master" tailoring the experience to your character progression etc. You might have seen such elements in other titles, new or old, but to bring them together meaningfully and seamlessly in this format would be revolutionary and neither their Kickstarter trailer nor the couple of videos I've seen on their YouTube channel suggest any breakthroughs at this stage. There's nothing in there that looks all that different from hobbyists playing with Unreal 5 features, nothing to show systems working in concert towards a cohesive rendition of the proposed design.

I hope I'm wrong, the RPG genre's long overdue for a kick in the butt to push it forward, and since major publishers are content to regurgitate cinemoootic experience after cinemoootic experience, innovation's likely to come from some independent upstarts. But right now, there's an... odour here, guys. Like something you might smell in a bull's pen or a Hello Games office...



P.S. It really rustles my jimmies that everyone orbiting this thing keeps referring to "Choice" and "Consequence" as separate design "pillars." "Choice and Consequence" (or "Agency", if you actually graduated high school) is a single RPG concept referring to branching or loopback designs, there is no such thing as choice without consequence. What Once Lost are listing as "Choice" actually seems to be that you've got different races, equipment and skills... So, basically, "one of our design pillars for this RPG is that it's going to be an RPG!" This might seem like a petty gripe, but it makes a poor impression coming from RPG veterans.

 

[Bulo]

Can anyone confirm that Julian LeFay (the Danish popstar) is still involved with this project?

 

[Harthwain]

P.S. It really rustles my jimmies that everyone orbiting this thing keeps referring to "Choice" and "Consequence" as separate design "pillars." "Choice and Consequence" (or "Agency", if you actually graduated high school) is a single RPG concept referring to branching or loopback designs, there is no such thing as choice without consequence. What Once Lost are listing as "Choice" actually seems to be that you've got different races, equipment and skills... So, basically, "one of our design pillars for this RPG is that it's going to be an RPG!" This might seem like a petty gripe, but it makes a poor impression coming from RPG veterans.

But "Choice" and "Consequence" can very much be separate aspects. The "Choice" of race/skills/whatver is standard RPG trope. Not that many RPGs have "Consequence" (or "Agency", for that matter). And those that do have "Consequence" to be either inconsequential - in the grand scheme of things - or extremely limited.

This Wayward Realms pitch, however? Bringing something like Daggerfall's design scope in line with contemporary standards of fidelity and verisimilitude is a challenging proposition in and of itself, but Once Lost Games are actually pitching an expansion to that formula with their "Grand RPG" - changing seasons, "World Events" causing the dynamic rise and decay of cities, an AI "videogame master" tailoring the experience to your character progression etc. You might have seen such elements in other titles, new or old, but to bring them together meaningfully and seamlessly in this format would be revolutionary and neither their Kickstarter trailer nor the couple of videos I've seen on their YouTube channel suggest any breakthroughs at this stage.

They are trying to drum up hype to get the ball rolling.

I could buy these kinds of promises from another developer, who would be doing it in 2D, because there are already some niche open-world RPGs that feature procedurally generated worlds (in the vein of Dwarf Fortress) and this could expand upon that, but trying to pull the same with something like Oblivion/Skyrim? Not gonna happen. Even strategy game sims struggle to pull of this kind of stuff.

 

[Abu Antar]

People do not read what they wrote on the Kickstarter. To their credit, they've been strait forward about all this. They are asking for $500K for one year of development to make a map which is 140km2 and two playable races, orc and human.

Now what does that mean? That 140km2 roughly translates into 11x11km map. It is equivalent of asking money for one year of development to make Betony Island from Daggerfall. It would be sort of playable Alpha proof-of-concept project, which they will take to publishers to get a proper, multi million funding that is needed for the entire project.

Indeed, but again, IF they find a publisher. In the current gaming industry, that's easier said than done. The climate in the industry is not calm summer, but storm season.

They have been upfront, there's no denying that. Still, there's a long way to go for a 1.0 game. A lot of ifs and buts, if you will.

 

[bandersnatch]

I can't remember if this was the game that gave some writer PTSD because as soon as the team went off camera they went full on libtardo on him? Also wasn't there some streamer Indigo involved at one point? Someone must know more about the chances of this ending up in libtardo land with anal bear sex or if we will get a balanced game. It's going to be funded either way, but I want to know before I throw in my dime.

 

[Zombra]

This is a 50/50 project, and that's too risky for me.

If it were 50/50 I'd roll the dice. This is more like a one in a million blindfolded dart throw over the shoulder.

 

[NecroLord]

Also wasn't there some streamer Indigo involved at one point?

He certainly was.
Indigo Gaming to be more precise.
Also did an article on the matter.

 

[Gargaune]

But "Choice" and "Consequence" can very much be separate aspects. The "Choice" of race/skills/whatver is standard RPG trope. Not that many RPGs have "Consequence" (or "Agency", for that matter). And those that do have "Consequence" to be either inconsequential - in the grand scheme of things - or extremely limited.

But it's an essential RPG trope, to the point it never gets called "choice" or anything else because it's absolutely implied and expected in the genre. Saying that an RPG lets you choose between various attributes and equipment is like saying an FPS lets you shoot shit. So if you announce an RPG and highlight basic RPG mechanics as a "pillar" of your design, it comes across a little awkward, like you were running low on selling points and trying to buzzword-up the bare minimum. I didn't pick on the latter item - whether you call it "Consequences" or "Choice & Consequence" or "Agency", because yes, I agree it's worth pointing out as a core value since not all RPGs get into branching/loopback designs.

The thing is, if you look at their four "Core Game Pillars", they list Scope, Choice, Consequence and Roleplaying. But the latter three are vaguely intertwined and almost interchangeable in common RPG parlance, until you realise that "Choice" translates to "our RPG has RPG mechanics" and "Roleplaying" is explained as "our RPG has a bunch of faction questlines instead of a main quest." Like I said, this sort of poetic license in your marketing makes a poor first impression, at least on me.

They are trying to drum up hype to get the ball rolling.

I could buy these kinds of promises from another developer, who would be doing it in 2D, because there are already some niche open-world RPGs that feature procedurally generated worlds (in the vein of Dwarf Fortress) and this could expand upon that, but trying to pull the same with something like Oblivion/Skyrim? Not gonna happen. Even strategy game sims struggle to pull of this kind of stuff.

Yep, that's pretty much where I'm at, they seem to be promising the Moon but I don't see any rockets lying around. These days I feel like history's been very unfair to Molyneux - the man had a tendency to overhype but he still delivered some wonderful stuff at the end of the day, whereas the rolling dumpsterfire that's been crowdfunded videogames in the last decade makes him look like a saint.

 

[Harthwain]

But it's an essential RPG trope, to the point it never gets called "choice" or anything else because it's absolutely implied and expected in the genre.

Frankly, I could play a devil's advocate and argue something different: there are many games that claim to be RPGs because they use this essential RPG trope, but lack substance behind it to become a fully-fledged RPGs (and not RPGs in name only).

What I mean by that is this: having a bunch of numbers alone doesn't mean much without something else to support it. Looking at it from this standpoint I think it is possible to justify why they are pointing out what core elements of their game are going to be. It is even more understandable in terms of marketing the game to your average Joe and not an RPG veterans, like you or me. Then there are RPGs - like Gothic - where you can't even decide what your race is. So highlighting that players will have the ability to pick their own race (and whatever else) could be an important feature to some people.

These days I feel like history's been very unfair to Molyneux - the man had a tendency to overhype but he still delivered some wonderful stuff at the end of the day, whereas the rolling dumpsterfire that's been crowdfunded videogames in the last decade makes him look like a saint.

No just to overhype. He often was making up things on the spot and straight up lied. No rolling dumpsterfire of crowfunded videogaming is going to change any of that. If anyone looks like a saint next to Sith Lord Peter Molyneux then it is Todd Howard, because that guy knows how to straddle the line between generating hype and stretching the truth while still remaining in the technically not wrong zone.

 

[Shog-goth]

I think the skepticism surrounding the project is absolutely justified, especially in light of the many disappointments associated with crowdfunding and the many unfulfilled promises that have led to enormous disappointments. This, coupled with the fact that the developers can only rely on their past history, but to date have not been able to demonstrate anything substantial about their current ability to deliver such an ambitious project. So, despite having backed the project, I am the first one not to have much faith in the final outcome, but the fact is that I don't want to (yet) give up on the evidence that a certain type of game will never see the light of day again, when in the 90s I saw myself projected twenty years ahead and visualized what masterpieces I could play, drawing a direct line between the milestones of the time and those that would come later following a progressive evolution. Unfortunately, we know very well how it ended, but stubbornly and tenaciously (and even against common sense) I have not yet decided to throw in the towel, and as long as 40 dollars will allow me to keep the dream alive I will continue to cultivate hope.

 

[Harthwain]

This, coupled with the fact that the developers can only rely on their past history, but to date have not been able to demonstrate anything substantial about their current ability to deliver such an ambitious project.

There is also the horror story brought to us by a survivor who had an inside look as to how these developers operate: How I ALMOST Made the Game of My Dreams

Honestly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it turns up all the work we have seen so far was done by some dedicated fans for free, while developers are just talking heads who throw in ideas and don't do much else.

 

[Gargaune]

Frankly, I could play a devil's advocate and argue something different: there are many games that claim to be RPGs because they use this essential RPG trope, but lack substance behind it to become a fully-fledged RPGs (and not RPGs in name only).

What I mean by that is this: having a bunch of numbers alone doesn't mean much without something else to support it. Looking at it from this standpoint I think it is possible to justify why they are pointing out what core elements of their game are going to be. It is even more understandable in terms of marketing the game to your average Joe and not an RPG veterans, like you or me. Then there are RPGs - like Gothic - where you can't even decide what your race is. So highlighting that players will have the ability to pick their own race (and whatever else) could be an important feature to some people.

And stuff like that usually gets billed as "deep/complex RPG systems blah blah", not as "choice." "Choice" is usually paired with "consequence" to sell that Agency point, that's what got me bellyaching about this to begin with.

Here they literally include "equipment" as part of their Choice pillar, as if my ability to flip between shotgun and assault rifle in Soldier of Fortune was a selling point, so then what's so special about how Wayward Realms handles equipment? Does it have faction getups like in New Vegas? Do NPCs react to the condition of your gear like in KCD? They don't say, so call my cynical but all I can conclude at this point is that it's marketing waffle to make commonplace mechanics seem as grander than they actually are.

You know, I wonder whether this might backfire in the long run, setting up exaggerated expectations like that. Maybe just "Daggerfall with modern graphics" would've been enough to fund this thing without promising some digital blowjobs it can't deliver? Still a challenge, but possibly a more manageable one.

There is also the horror story brought to us by a survivor who had an inside look as to how these developers operate: How I ALMOST Made the Game of My Dreams

Is it tender, precious? Is it juicy? I gotta go do some cooking, but I'm digging into this later.

P.S. Read it and whew, definitely sounded less than idyllic...

 

[Shog-goth]

There is also the horror story brought to us by a survivor who had an inside look as to how these developers operate: How I ALMOST Made the Game of My Dreams

Honestly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it turns up all the work we have seen so far was done by some dedicated fans for free, while developers are just talking heads who throw in ideas and don't do much else.

There's no need to convince me. Even if, against all odds, the game does materialize as planned in the end, I would never say "See? I told you so" precisely because I am the first to realize the very shaky foundations on which the entire project rests. Mine was the lottery ticket bought on impulse at the gas station, without thinking too much about the odds of winning. It's a bottle thrown into the sea that will probably never be found by anyone.

 

[Bulo]

It has been up for two days and is already over halfway funded. Nothing to do now but wait and see

 

[Old Hans]

This Wayward Realms pitch, however? Bringing something like Daggerfall's design scope in line with contemporary standards of fidelity and verisimilitude is a challenging proposition in and of itself, but Once Lost Games are actually pitching an expansion to that formula with their "Grand RPG" - changing seasons, "World Events" causing the dynamic rise and decay of cities, an AI "videogame master" tailoring the experience to your character progression etc.

this reminds me of the Underworld Ascent Kickstarter during their pre-production pipe dream phase when everything is possible. Then as development progresses, reality sets in and we end up with someone's unity engnie highschool project

 

[Hammer Of The Heretics]

Here's the plan:

1. Kickstart a "demo".
2. Use the money to screw around for a year.
3. Take whatever random crap they have when the money runs out onto the publisher circuit.
4. Fail to get a deal because their "demo" is crap.
5. Blame the publishers for not recognizing their genius.

 

[Shog-goth]

Here's the plan:

1. Kickstart a "demo".
2. Use the money to screw around for a year.
3. Take whatever random crap they have when the money runs out onto the publisher circuit.
4. Fail to get a deal because their "demo" is crap.
5. Blame the publishers for not recognizing their genius.

This is a possibility but, even if we want to presume absolute good faith and above all the ability to create in a year or so a slice of the game capable of generating attention and recognition, there remains the big problem of the publisher: first of all, to determine what financial amount we are talking about, because everything depends on the ambition, especially in terms of technology and graphics, whether to chase the latest trends or settle for (for example, it would be the ideal solution in my opinion) an AA level, because today it does not seem to me that the scenario is particularly favorable from this point of view, with restructuring at every corner, downsizing, layoffs and cancellation of even already started projects. The risk is that you won't find anyone willing to risk it or, secondly, that you will have to compromise the vision of the game to meet the conditions of the potential publisher, not to mention the inevitable subsequent interferences in the course of the work by the latter. In short, crowdfunding was born essentially to free developers from the shackles of publishers (even if in the end it has been shown that perhaps, at least in many cases, someone external who supervises would have been necessary, indeed essential), so this still seems to me in many ways a forcing of these principles, and it should be emphasized that if for some reason the publisher is not found, we would end up with a miserable alpha on our hands, limited to a fraction of the game world, and we would have to settle for this or plan a new round of crowdfunding.

 

[Butter]

The biggest issue is them apparently chasing modernish graphics. Settling on a 2008 visual standard would still be a big upgrade from Daggerfall, and then you could spend 1/5 as much on artists, focusing those funds towards programmers to get your core systems working (i.e. the VGM).

 

[NecroLord]

Here's the plan:

1. Kickstart a "demo".
2. Use the money to screw around for a year.
3. Take whatever random crap they have when the money runs out onto the publisher circuit.
4. Fail to get a deal because their "demo" is crap.
5. Blame the publishers for not recognizing their genius.

Best Deal.

 

[Dwergar]

Here's the plan:

1. Kickstart a "demo".
2. Use the money to screw around for a year.
3. Take whatever random crap they have when the money runs out onto the publisher circuit.
4. Fail to get a deal because their "demo" is crap.
5. Blame the publishers for not recognizing their genius.

Julian will probably take about $100-120K for a year, Ted will cut in about $80-$100K. That would leave about $300K for 12 months of production for a team of about 15 people. Averaging about $20K/y for an individual paycheck.
This would all mean that most of the team will not work on the project full time [Julian and Ted excluded and maybe few others], probably just keep doing what they did up until now [volunteer hours], so putting in about 14h per week,...just this time they will get payed for that amount of [work].

 

[luj1]

The biggest issue is them apparently chasing modernish graphics.

yup

game looks generic, has 0 style