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Ultima The Ultima Underworld I & II Thread

Cael

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What? Spells were awesome un UW. Yes you could melee your way as well but preferring one viable playstyle does not invalidate others.
Never found that to be the case. You can fire two dozen magic missiles into the gazer on L2, for example, and it would still be fighting fit.

Ranged combat in UW tend to be bad because the enemy would just charge you before you can get your second round off.
 

Cael

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Ranged combat in UW tend to be bad because the enemy would just charge you before you can get your second round off.
What combination/specialisation are you using though?
What do you mean? It doesn't really matter which one. You fire once and blam! Enemy in your face. It is generally a lot safer to go with a melee weapon skill to help prevent getting your face clawed off and eaten.
 

Unkillable Cat

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IMO, the problem with ranged weapons has more to do with the game's limited range of vision. It's usually dark as crap on top of that.

While close combat is also the most fun method of dealing damage, spells are not to be overlooked. Magic Missile is a puny puny spell, but Lightning Bolt and Fireball not only hit hard, but they also have an Area of Effect that damages (and destroys) stuff in the vicinity, so be careful with those.

The Gazer example doesn't prove that magic sucks, it just shows that Gazers are tough. They tend to shrug off even melee attacks, especially at such an early point in the game.
 

Cael

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IMO, the problem with ranged weapons has more to do with the game's limited range of vision. It's usually dark as crap on top of that.

While close combat is also the most fun method of dealing damage, spells are not to be overlooked. Magic Missile is a puny puny spell, but Lightning Bolt and Fireball not only hit hard, but they also have an Area of Effect that damages (and destroys) stuff in the vicinity, so be careful with those.

The Gazer example doesn't prove that magic sucks, it just shows that Gazers are tough. They tend to shrug off even melee attacks, especially at such an early point in the game.
I tried using MM on a Lurker also. It... didn't do much... I gave up after that.

It is just far faster to charge the enemy as he charges you and stab him to death using the old move forward, stab, retreat (to dodge the return strike), repeat.

The area of effect is another reason why I don't like damage spells. There are very few, if any, occasions where you will have enemies bunched up enough for the area of effect to be useful. In many cases, the area of effect would include YOU as the enemy charges into your face.
 

Invictus

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Divinity: Original Sin 2
Playing this for the first time and even though I am enjoying it so much I might have some mixed feelings about it

First off I always wanted to play UU but the time it was released I had a rather shitty 286 so since the game needed at least a 386 (and a rather powerful one too) I was out of luck
So I still played Might and Magic 3, Wizardry 7, Ultima 6, The Summoning and kind of dreamt of having a more powerful machine for playing games like UU, Elder Scrolls Arena and mostly Darklands

By the time I got a Pentium (!) and managed to get one of those Soundblaster upgrade kits that came with a CD Rom (working on my very first job programing the scoreboard for the local baseball team) I had my sights on Daggerfall, Half Life and of course Baldur’s Gate

I managed to get Darklands through a used games add in a magazine and that became my favorite game of all time

As for Ultima Underworld... playing Daggerfall sort of made think this was kind of the dungeon crawl I had always dreamt of so I never went back to look for UU

I always heard such positive things about it but just never got around it
But after playing Arx Fatalis and enjoying it tremendously I decided to go for “the real thing” and try UU

I have just finished the second level but this has been such a fantastic experience I feel almost cheated by never having played it before, is it possible to feel nostalgia like this for sonething you have recently experienced?

It is almost perfect so far and I am enjoying it so much especially using Munt for emulation, the MIDI sound really makes the game come alive and it has helped my enjoyment not only of UU but other games like Might and Magic 3 and Darklands especially... other than switching the midiconfig=1 I did nothing else; water sounds great as well as the footsteps so I dont know if I need to tweak anything else

This game is like a brief glimpse at a parallel reality, where games could have been so well designed and immersive, without compromises for consoles or mindless tutorials

Playing this now makes the hot mess of the “new” Underworld even more painful, with their retarded box puzzles, neon lights and Warcraft inspired art

At first I was kind of looking forward to a mouselook similar to System Shock but now I look at even the “flaws” of the game as charming

Would really love of somehow Looking Glass could release the code, maybe porting the original game to the engine of the sequel or something but to be honest I am kind of happy just the way the game is right now
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
Strange post, you start by stressing out the mixed feelings but then you have nothing but good things to say about the game (as should be).

Also, it's not nostalgia if it's your first time, the very definition of the word implies previous knowledge. The game is simply that good.

I can understand the desire for some control/UI improvements (and the criticisms of the controls were even harsher on release, since they were so completely new and nobody was used to them) but keep in mind this was the first free-moving first person game to be developed. Nobody could even imagine mouselook back then, and nobody did for years after.
 
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Invictus

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Divinity: Original Sin 2
Strange post, you start by stressing out the mixed feelings but then you have nothing but good things to say about the game (as should be).

Also, it's not nostalgia if it's your first time, the very definition of the word implies previous knowledge. The game is simply that good.

I can understand the desire for some control/UI improvements (and the criticisms of the controls were even harsher on release, since they were so completely knew and nobody was used to them) but keep in mind this was the first free-moving first person game to be developed. Nobody could even imagine mouselook back then, and nobody did for years after.
My mixed feelings were the regret I had about not playing this before and enjoying it so much now that I had; playing for the first time games like New Vegas, Bloodlines, Arx Fatalis and now Ultima Underworld have really hit me hard on this nostalgia trip

I think baring a few modern games like Stalker, Age of Decandence and Witcher 3 most of modern games feel so...lifeless?
You can feel the personality on these older games, they are so daring and refreshing, it shows the passion of its creators and their desire to innovate rather than pleasing everybody and looking to sell as much as possible

That is my nostalgia, for that sort of innovation where developers like Looking Glass kept innovating and developing fantastic games like Ultima Underworld, Thief, System Shock and you literally didn’t know what you were going to get but you knew that it wqs going to be fantastic
 

Cael

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Strange post, you start by stressing out the mixed feelings but then you have nothing but good things to say about the game (as should be).

Also, it's not nostalgia if it's your first time, the very definition of the word implies previous knowledge. The game is simply that good.

I can understand the desire for some control/UI improvements (and the criticisms of the controls were even harsher on release, since they were so completely knew and nobody was used to them) but keep in mind this was the first free-moving first person game to be developed. Nobody could even imagine mouselook back then, and nobody did for years after.
My mixed feelings were the regret I had about not playing this before and enjoying it so much now that I had; playing for the first time games like New Vegas, Bloodlines, Arx Fatalis and now Ultima Underworld have really hit me hard on this nostalgia trip

I think baring a few modern games like Stalker, Age of Decandence and Witcher 3 most of modern games feel so...lifeless?
You can feel the personality on these older games, they are so daring and refreshing, it shows the passion of its creators and their desire to innovate rather than pleasing everybody and looking to sell as much as possible

That is my nostalgia, for that sort of innovation where developers like Looking Glass kept innovating and developing fantastic games like Ultima Underworld, Thief, System Shock and you literally didn’t know what you were going to get but you knew that it wqs going to be fantastic
Looking Glass got taken over by EA. So, you can kiss any possible sequel good-bye. At best you will get something in name only, so it is better not to petition for another. Just take a look at what happened to the latest Star Control under development by stardick.
 

Zep Zepo

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Is there any way now to play (UU) without the postage-stamp 3D window? Or even a toggle full screen no UI/postage stamp UI or something similar?

I finished the game once when it was released, I've installed it several times thereafter over the years...but that 3D small window just kills it for me and I never finish a play-through.

When it was new and fresh, I guess I didn't mind it so much...but now...meh...to small.

Zep--
 

RoSoDude

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I've been playing Ultima Underworld through GOG recently, and I thought I'd give some technical notes and impressions.

First I had to work around an annoying issue with DOSbox, namely that in fullscreen, the game rendered with U-shaped black borders thanks to how it was trying to scale up the original aspect ratio. I personally prefer some filtering to make the game render as large as possible with the correct aspect ratio (so vertical black bars are acceptable). The only way I could find to do that was to change "fullresolution=original" to "fullresolution=0x0" in the configuration files. For what it's worth, I'm also using these renderer settings. I also had to fix the midi sounds (I have the best luck with "4 -1 -1 -1 sound" and "2 -1 -1 -1 speech") and jerky mouse thanks to a Windows update stealthily re-enabling global mouse acceleration.

One last thing that's causing me concern is I've started to encounter the dreaded "Underworld Internal Error - Problems in Object List" warning whenever I re-enter or reload a save from Level 1. No item losses yet as far as I can tell, but I've heard it can delete key items like Talismans if you're not careful, so I'm a bit worried. Anyone have any advice on how to avoid this bug? I've heard destroying useless objects in water/lava can help, but I've also heard the exact opposite, with the claim that the issue has to do with improper reference deletion when destroying objects.

Anyway, onto the game. It's taken some getting used to, but I'm quite enjoying it! I tried playing the game a few months ago but was put off by the aforementioned technical/config issues, and especially the notion that I would have to constantly click the icons on the left side of the screen to look, grab, use, talk, and fight, as well as wrangle against my WASD muscle memory just to clumsily move around the game world. But after properly reading the manual and putting a few more hours into the game, I've discovered that the mouse-driven controls are pretty intuitive, provided you stay in the icon-less interaction mode. Moving, turning, and jumping purely with the mouse controls actually feels pretty good, and all of the interactions are perfectly accessible with the correct mouse clicks and gestures. Tap right click on objects to look, drag right click on objects in the world to get/use/talk (in that priority), left click objects in inventory to use, and left click on the weapon in your hand to equip/unequip it. Not bad at all, even if inferior to System Shock's frobbing paradigm, which itself is obsoleted by the LGS control standard that followed. I pretty much avoid any keyboard input other than 1/2/3 for adjusting my pitch like the plague, as I have a tendency to fatfinger Alt+X at the same time and close out the game in the heat of things, which has already lost me about half an hour of progress on one occasion (I have the same issue with not-infrequent accidental quitting in the cyberspace sections of System Shock, for what it's worth). Honestly the most annoying feature of the controls to me now is when I accidentally click on one of the interaction icons on the left window pane during combat and have to figure out why I'm not swinging my sword.

Speaking of which, combat. I had a really bad time of it in the beginning, and I've still not totally gotten the hang of it, but I've taken a liking to some aspects of it. I appreciate that the weapon types appear to do better/worse damage in a believable manner -- it looks downright silly to stab with a hand-axe or cudgel or swing overhand with a dagger, and lo and behold, they do much less damage that way! It's really cool how much thought was put into making the game's interactions intuitive and immersive, especially given that there are no tooltips or item descriptions. And why would there be? What magical being is supposed to be beaming information into your brain when you're comparing how much damage two weapons will do? All you know is what your character can see (what is it and what kind of shape is it in) and feel (how much does it weigh), which is a great way to put me in the shoes of my character and make me experiment as I would in reality. I've still not gotten a great handle on where my swings will actually go, though. Does a strike land where I pointed on the screen, or just in a general high/medium/low area in front of me? Are there dicerolls for determining hits? It's kinda hard to tell while moving around in combat, which seems necessary for avoiding damage and timing your own hits.

I've already had a great moment of that "emergent gameplay" people extoll in reference to this game. I was heading east on the bridge south of the Gray Goblin encampment in Level 1, and a hostile Gray Goblin spotted me and gave chase. Still unconfident with my fighting skills, I doubled back and extinguished my torch so he'd lose sight of me (I'm still not sure if there is any sort of light detection system, but I figured I'd try). I crept back up to the bridge, and found him staring in confusion out into the water on the edge of the bridge, with his back turned to me. I warily equipped my hand-axe and prepared for an overhand strike while my opponent was still unaware. As I rushed forward and my blow landed, I managed to push the goblin right off the bridge and into the water below! I'm not sure if it was actually my forward momentum or my strike that did it, but it sure put a triumphant smile on my face and gave me the vigor to push onwards. The game has already set itself apart with rudimentary physics simulation that engenders an organic and intuitive roleplaying experience. I've already had it "click" why you guys love this game, which is awesome. There are other little things too, like figuring out that leeches can suck out poison and just the general intuitiveness of how things work.

I've also enjoyed meeting the denizens of the Stygian Abyss. The conversation system might be basic but... honestly, what major advancement has taken place in the intervening years? The sort of dialogue options on offer are already fairly ideal from my perspective, with some purely cosmetic choices which help you express your character's personality and some which genuinely affect the outcome of NPC interactions, including what information is given to you (not everyone is a walking encyclopedia). It's your job to pay attention to what's being said and figure out which is which, navigating between trying to get what you want and avoiding getting on people's bad side. Some of the writing so far has also been genuinely entertaining. Standouts include:
  1. Getting a tip from the Green Goblin king's bodyguard after a bribe to ply Vernix with compliments if I want to get anything out of him, and then bearing witness to the sheer absurdity of the over-the-top flattery on offer
  2. Noticing that the Mountainmen on Level 2 are denoted and refer to themselves as such, and thus all of the options to call King Goldthirst a "dwarf" will likely piss him off
  3. Everything about the Ironwit conversation, which honestly is a perfect recreation of my interactions with some elderly folk who have a screw or two loose
I'm not terribly impressed with the RPG systems so far. A lot of character creation relies on having faith that the developers have attained some semblance of balance and parity in representation of the systems to which each skill applies, but that's clearly not the case here. I chose a Paladin and pumped Attack and Acrobat (since taking damage from the most minor of falls is lame), but I feel pity for anyone who selected seemingly worthless skills like Trap or Appraise. I don't hold it against the game too much given how much it has going on, but it is a disappointment. I was also quite excited to find my first shrine, but the "roll for skills" mantra system is just begging to be save scummed -- I did it just to see what skills were in each category, and rolled a few times just out of necessity. Speaking of which, I wonder how the game will fare in terms of challenge with the ease of savescumming and respawning with the Silver Sapling. I haven't noticed any penalty like enemies healing or respawning, so it seems like the Silver Sapling is a free pass to run roughshod over the level as long as you have the weapon durability to pull it off. Kinda makes eating/sleeping nothing more than a management task, no?

All in all, very cool game, will have more to say about it as I go on. And if anyone has answers to my above questions (wat do about object list errors and how do combat swings work?), that'd be helpful.
 
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Cael

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1. Actually, the game's manual tells you about the weapon swing/thrust thing...

2. Pushing things off ledges is a thing in UW. Unfortunately, it also means vital NPCs can be accidentally pushed off and you end up in a very bad scenario.

3. Skills need not be random. Play the game more ;)
 

RoSoDude

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1. Actually, the game's manual tells you about the weapon swing/thrust thing...
Well, I didn't read it that closely, as you can see ;) Thanks for the tip, I'll take a closer look.

2. Pushing things off ledges is a thing in UW. Unfortunately, it also means vital NPCs can be accidentally pushed off and you end up in a very bad scenario.
Frequent saving to the rescue, eh? Except this object list bug has me worried about doing it so frequently I don't have anything to go back to if an item gets borked.

3. Skills need not be random. Play the game more ;)
Oh, I know the mantras get more specific eventually. Don't know why I do, but I heard it somewhere long ago. Still, I don't think rolling for stats even the first time adds much in the context of abusable saves, especially given the apparent lack of balance. Cool enough if you want to roll with the punches I guess.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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Roll with the punches, just about any character can finish the game. By the way appraise gives you better descriptive text for items, you can better assess the condition of your and others' items, and you are better at appraising what is on offer and haggling during bartering. I believe it also helps with a quest or two...

Be sure to reveal every corner of each level, there are plenty of surprises and that is part of the joy. Also, if you get off on mapping you can scratch that itch by meticulously annotating your maps. Don't forget you can use map sheets beyond level 8 for game notes.

Man you have a lot to look forward to. I still marvel how much better realized this was than TES Arena, which was a real downer in comparison two years later.
 
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Unkillable Cat

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The only other keyboard commands you (may) need besides 1-3 for viewing angles is CTRL+J for jumping from a stationary position, and F9 to use the Tracking skill.

As for the object list error - the only reliable manner I've found to avoid it is not to stack too many items in one place. That means you don't set up a storage space somewhere and start hoarding stuff in several containers... or at least you distribute such a storage space across several floors (haven't tried that myself). The last time I got the error was on Level 2 because I had a stack of gold in Shak's smithy ready to pay for all his work, while Goldthirst's personal quarters became my storage room for lots of stuff (I picked that spot due to how frequently I traveled through the area.
 

soulburner

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So... after the Underworld Ascendant fiasco, it's time to finally play the original Underworld - I have both games on GoG, which I didn't even realize I did ;) I remember my last attempts at it failed due to clunky controls (including the mouse cursor behaving erratically), game being too dark and running very slowly for whatever reason. No mouse look was also a big factor in letting it go.

Questions:
- is Underworld Exporter fully playable now, with everything working or should I go with the original?
- if the latter, any way to implement proper mouselook? Any other tweaks or mods?
- any info on the source code being released (are there even plans for such?) or at least releasing an enhanced version with a few Quality of Life improvements?

And last but not least: any good tutorials, walkthroughs, tips & tricks and stuff to get me started, beside studying the manual? I don't know why, but I'm kind of scared I will not like it without some hand holding at first.
 

Unkillable Cat

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- any info on the source code being released (are there even plans for such?) or at least releasing an enhanced version with a few Quality of Life improvements?

Otherside Entertainment has the source code for both Underworld games, but have so far not shown any interest in trying to use it. :(

And last but not least: any good tutorials, walkthroughs, tips & tricks and stuff to get me started, beside studying the manual? I don't know why, but I'm kind of scared I will not like it without some hand holding at first.

I'm not aware of any decent walkthroughs for the games (though they are available) but I can throw out some basic tips to get you through the worst of it:

# During character creation you determine the three basic stats (Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence) as well as what Skills you start with points in. Skills can be increased, but the stats are permanent and cannot be modified later on.
# Strength mostly determines your carry weight, so many players will want that as high as possible (Max value is 30). Intelligence determines how much Mana you have, and Dexterity does... something. Can't remember specifically what right now.
# You also pick one of eight available classes, and your selection determines how high you can train various skills. Max skill value is 30, but some classes may cap that at 25 or even lower.
# Depending on your character build you'll want some skills maxed out, while others will only need a handful of points put into them. Acrobat (reduces fall damage) and Swimming (reduces exhaustion damage by swimming for too long) only need about 8 points or so to be useful, Search (spot secret doors and buttons) you may want up to about 12.
# Some skills are totally useless, like Appraise (get better deals in trading) and Charm (better reactions from critters). Repair (speaks for itself) is made redundant by the blacksmith found in the game, while Track (a strange kind of radar), Traps (Finding and disarming them) and Sneak (speaks for itself) are only marginally useful.
# Attack, Defense, Lore (identify items) and Lockpick (speaks for itself) are considered essential by most UW players. You'll want these at least in the 20-range, otherwise as high as possible.
# Due to how the Lore skills works, you will want to get skill points into it as quickly as possible. You may otherwise miss out on finding magical items.
# There are five weapon skills, pick one and stick to it. Unarmed is the weakest, but it requires zero maintenance and you don't need to carry a weapon.
# Where you click in the window to charge up your attack determines what kind of attack you'll made (thrust, swing, or bash). Use the attack that's best suited to your weapon. (Does not apply to Unarmed.)
# You'll need to pump up Casting (and Mana) if you're going to be using magic, as Casting determines your chance of success.
# Spells are cast by combining runes from the Runic Alphabet. The manual has the spells listed, but there are a few 'hidden' spells as well to discover.
# What gender or apperance you choose for your character has no effect in-game.
# Death is permanent unless you've found and activated the Silver Sapling. Fortunately it's located just a stone throw's away from your starting position. (Find a way through the first door on your right, then take a right from there.)
# To activate it, Pick Up the plant and then Use the Seed you've given while it's in your inventory, with an open patch of dirt in front of you, of which there is some right where you find the plant. You may need to back up or move forward to get it right.
# Once you've re-planted the plant you'll be respawned at the plant's location instead of just dying. IIRC there's no penalty for dying like this, but if there is any it's a small XP loss.
# There's plenty of XP in the game to max out your character. You cannot be drained of stats, skills or levels.
# You have a giant, glowing yellow eye, don't be afraid of using it! The Look command is VERY useful.
# Critters can come in four kinds of moods: 'Peaceful'/'Friendly', 'mellow', 'upset' and 'hostile'. You can learn what mood they're in by Looking at them. Only hostile critters will attack you.
# If a critter is not attacking you, try Talking to it. You never know...
# You'll need to eat to rest properly and regain Hit Points/Mana, but food can come in various conditions. Remember to Look at foodstuffs before eating them.
# Food left about in the dungeon may degrade in quality, food in your inventory however does not.
# There's rudimentary crafting in the game. Combine a Flask of Oil with a Wooden Stick (sp?) to create a Torch, for example.
# Doors come in four levels of quality. 'Massive' is the strongest one and you can't bash those down. Any other quality means that you can bash the door open instead of messing with the lock.
# Mushrooms are edible, but there may be side effects...
# No previous Ultima experience is needed to play and enjoy the first Underworld game. The sequel, however, is a direct follow-up to Ultima VII: The Black Gate AND ties into Ultima VII Part 2: The Serpent Isle. You may want to play The Black Gate before playing Ultima Underworld 2.

This should get you started, but you kinda have to study the manual to figure out the interface.

EDIT: Wrong word.
 
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agris

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So... after the Underworld Ascendant fiasco, it's time to finally play the original Underworld - I have both games on GoG, which I didn't even realize I did ;) I remember my last attempts at it failed due to clunky controls (including the mouse cursor behaving erratically), game being too dark and running very slowly for whatever reason. No mouse look was also a big factor in letting it go.

Questions:
- is Underworld Exporter fully playable now, with everything working or should I go with the original?
- if the latter, any way to implement proper mouselook? Any other tweaks or mods?
- any info on the source code being released (are there even plans for such?) or at least releasing an enhanced version with a few Quality of Life improvements?

And last but not least: any good tutorials, walkthroughs, tips & tricks and stuff to get me started, beside studying the manual? I don't know why, but I'm kind of scared I will not like it without some hand holding at first.
AFAIK, none of the ports are recommended. They aren't feature complete or feature-clones (i.e. features don't work the same way).

I put together a guide to getting the GOG version's sound setup, and compared some graphical options here.
 

octavius

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Sound effects are more important than music, in which case mt32 or MUNT is superior to the wishy washy SB sounds. I seriously thought there was something wrong with my sound card first time I played UU1 due to the very weak sound FX.
 

Fowyr

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As for the object list error - the only reliable manner I've found to avoid it is not to stack too many items in one place. That means you don't set up a storage space somewhere and start hoarding stuff in several containers... or at least you distribute such a storage space across several floors (haven't tried that myself). The last time I got the error was on Level 2 because I had a stack of gold in Shak's smithy ready to pay for all his work, while Goldthirst's personal quarters became my storage room for lots of stuff (I picked that spot due to how frequently I traveled through the area.
Last time when I played, I got that bug on the level 6, I think. I started destroying all bones and useless things in the water, but real culprits were blood stains and moss. They could be destroyed by fireball spell.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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That MT32 music is so badly mixed (loud) that it completely breaks immersion for me. Check YouTube be for the soundtracks and you can make your own decisions I guess.

There are very few sound effects in UU1.
 

agris

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That MT32 music is so badly mixed (loud) that it completely breaks immersion for me. Check YouTube be for the soundtracks and you can make your own decisions I guess.

There are very few sound effects in UU1.
I know it's been a while, but that's why I used the configuration that I linked to: you can change the volume of the MT32 music/SFX separately from the Soundblaster speach. I understand you like the composition of the SB music as well, but just a FYI.
 

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