Ultima The Ultima Series Discussion Thread

[bandersnatch]

Yeah, man, that guy who made Wizardry 1 - Milton Bradley - the game Wizardry was there for the taking by anyone! All someone had to do is a little coding and poof, what everyone could have done was done and he raked in the profits! Same with Ultima! Anyone could have come up with that idea! Same thing for Amazon! There wasn't an Amazon at the time, that's why me, Jeff Bezos, invented it. I mean, it was right there and there was no competition! And also that guy who invented cars? That's right - there weren't any other cars, so it's not like the first car was any good! Same goes for the Internet! Same goes for TCP! I mean, why can't we have a protocol that takes packets of data and assembles them somewhere else while including error correction?!

You actually think those early game developers were the first to invent these things? There is very few new ideas out there. Many of their ideas came from other places, including the PLATO computer system RPGs many of them had access to in the 70's. The PLATO system was responsible for not only early CRPGs but also the concepts of networked MMOs, etc... Look it up, it has been documented. Nerd were making RPGs on computer since the early days of computers. What these early designers were good at was getting products out into their market early. In a time when the market was fresh and ripe for some to play. The market is not like that anymore, which is why they can't repeat their previous success in proportion to their early success. There is too much competition. It's the same with all new markets. Timing is important for commercial success.

 

[Daemongar]

You actually think those early game developers were the first to invent these things? There is very few new ideas out there. Many of their ideas came from other places, including the PLATO computer system RPGs many of them had access to in the 70's. The PLATO system was responsible for not only early CRPGs but also the concepts of networked MMOs, etc... Look it up, it has been documented. Nerd were making RPGs on computer since the early days of computers. What these early designers were good at was getting products out into their market early. In a time when the market was fresh and ripe for some to play. The market is not like that anymore, which is why they can't repeat their previous success in proportion to their early success. There is too much competition. It's the same with all new markets. Timing is important for commercial success.

These early designers were good at getting products out to market? What market?
How many copies of Wizardry 1 or Ultima 1 were sold? The developers didn't "get products to market fast" they invented the market. Wizardry sold 30K copies, Ultima 1 sold 20K. The market wasn't ripe - there wasn't one. They created the interest which pulled in others by delivering a good product, not some shit tier Plato MUD. It may have inspired Wizardry, but it's not like there were contemporary CRPGs. The Plato system was not responsible for early CRPGs - D&D was which was peaking at the time the first CRPGs were going to market - hence CRPGs copying the hit points, AC, stats, armor, weapons and all that.

There are very few new ideas - that's an interesting concept. Sure, all they did was marry D&D to Graphics and an electronic DM. These were already there - anyone could do thme! It reminds me of a guy on public radio in 1992. He said everything that was ever invented was already was. I remember how dumb that sounded back then. This was before iPods, iPhones, tablet computers, and the MySpace revolution. Sure, there is nothing new, but the combination of existing ideas in new and novel ways. CRPGs were one such invention by these brain dead developers who were just beating others to market. Sure, they didn't create anything except CRPGs as we know them.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Hmmmmm...... PLATO. Emulation time.

 

[Ebonsword]

Yeah, man, that guy who made Wizardry 1 - Milton Bradley...

Hmm, I think that's not quite correct. On a couple of different levels.

 

[bandersnatch]

These early designers were good at getting products out to market? What market?
How many copies of Wizardry 1 or Ultima 1 were sold? The developers didn't "get products to market fast" they invented the market. Wizardry sold 30K copies, Ultima 1 sold 20K. The market wasn't ripe - there wasn't one.

Umm, that was the market. It was the market of everyone that had early home computers. And it was huge for those early designers. Selling 20K in software back then was a huge hit back then. It was enough to keep them in business and expand. There wasn't many people making decent games for home computers back then, but the ones that did are all known today. Much of it was being in the right place at the right time, and with the right smarts to pull it off. Those conditions rarely repeat in a lifetime. It's like old movie directors like Spielberg... we can worship their old works and genius all we want, but the reality is a lot of the success not only had to do with the conditions of market, but also their lives as well.

I'm pretty sure most of the boomer designers would tell you this as well. In fact, I recall hearing a few of them talking about this very thing in interviews themselves. For some reason you seem to be in denial about it. I suggest if you ever meet one of them in person you ask them why they haven't been able to repeat the success in today's market proportionally to their earlier achievements. They know the market is not the same as when they were previously successful. Still, none of this belittles their previous accomplishments, but the conditions of the market are always part of the success. You can't have one without the other.

Curious, what is your favorite Ultima game anyway?

 

[Daemongar]

These early designers were good at getting products out to market? What market?
How many copies of Wizardry 1 or Ultima 1 were sold? The developers didn't "get products to market fast" they invented the market. Wizardry sold 30K copies, Ultima 1 sold 20K. The market wasn't ripe - there wasn't one.

I'm pretty sure most of the boomer designers would tell you this as well. In fact, I recall hearing a few of them talking about this very thing in interviews themselves. For some reason you seem to be in denial about it. I suggest if you ever meet one of them in person you ask them why they haven't been able to repeat the success in today's market proportionally to their earlier achievements. They know the market is not the same as when they were previously successful. Still, none of this belittles their previous accomplishments, but the conditions of the market are always part of the success. You can't have one without the other.

Curious, what is your favorite Ultima game anyway?

I met Gary Gygax on several occasions an that's enough meeting for one lifetime. But you ask about my favorite Ultima, and that's a jolly good question, old bean.

Favorite Ultima? Eh, lets see:

• Ultima 1 & 2 & 3: Associate those with being young and playing disk copies of them on the C64. Liked U2 a lot as it was all over, but never had much for U3, which is my least favorite. I could still play U2 all day, tho.
• Ultima IV: now we are on to something. Really liked this, but would be very difficult for me to play again as I still know where the mystic arms are, how powerful bows are, and probably wouldn't take notes. But its my favorite or close to my favorite.
• Ultima V: Uh... never finished this. The only one. Made it almost to the end and then Blackthorn cut off Iolo's head. I sorta stopped.
• Ultima VI: Liked a lot. Very good graphics and sound on the Amiga. Never replayed or even considered it, so I guess this is a knock agin' it.
• Ultima VII/SI: Fantastic. First IBM Ultima to play. Combat was, well, I know what they were *trying* for, but the story and engagement was staggering. Probably favorite based on # of replays. So yah, this would be my favorite as, while I hold Bard's Tale in high regard, I don't picture myself hand mapping the dungeons the same way I can't picture myself filling a notebook with Ultima IV notes.
• Ultima VIII: Finished it unpatched. Was a grueling, disappointing horror. The patch made it better but the story and lack of engagement, and crappy engine were only slightly better. Really depressing environment, philosophy, and execution.
• Ultima IX: Played it when it came out. Stopped due to horrific frame rates, finished it after the 1.18f patch or the one before it. Still return and play it from time to time as the graphics, music, and overall atmosphere were ahead of its time. What a wasted opportunity, though, just like Ultima 8. Think this game and RG both had their heads up their asses about Ultima's place in the grand scheme of things and elevated how interested anyone would be on RG's personal philosophy. Exquisitely moronic use of the virtues.
• UW1: Amazing game at the time, blew me away, solid experience from top to bottom.
• UW2: Great, greater viewing area, but kinda gets a little bogged down in the middle. Not as engaging a story as UW1.

 

[ShaggyMoose]

Vormulak aims for the shitposter tag with a record low number of posts. You can do it!

Probably a sockpuppet anyway.

 

[Vormulak]

Vormulak aims for the shitposter tag with a record low number of posts. You can do it!

Probably a sockpuppet anyway.

>you're shitposting if you don't like generic ''rpg'' dungeon crawlers with shit graphics and gameplay
good to know

 

[newtmonkey]

Exodus: Ultima III (PC)
I completed this today and overall had a great time playing it. I used the fanmade upgrade patch to play through the game. I ran into no problems at all, and preferred the "composite CGA" tileset over the somewhat garish EGA tileset (both are a massive upgrade over the CGA graphics of the unpatched game). The patch also adds MIDI music, and I especially liked the creepy dungeon music and somber overworld theme.

The overall quest structure is really good. It's a lot of fun getting the lay of the land, gathering information in towns, and slowly figuring out what you need to do. I found the game to be pretty fair in terms of providing hints on what you need to do to complete it. I even enjoyed figuring out how the moongates work, which is something I nearly completely avoided when I played through Ultima IV.

I had already completed the NES version years ago, so I generally knew what to do. However, I decided to play it "honestly" which meant mapping the dungeons on paper and not doing anything until I could find a hint in the game telling me to do it; for example, even though I already knew the order in which to insert the punchcards into Exodus, I went out of my way to find the Time Lord and get his hint. I found that playing it this way meant that I didn't need to artificially grind EXP or GOLD, and by the end of the game my party was powerful enough to easily get through the final castle.

---

Overall, an excellent game and I'm very happy that I've finally completed the PC version. Next up is to pick up where I left off in Ultima V, but I might think of maybe considering playing through the awful Ultima II over a lazy weekend.

 

[Sacibengala]

I'm really interested in playing the early Ultimas games and I wish to know if any of it had a quality remaster/remake made by the community? Faithful in the best ways, like feeling graphics and gameplay. but that's also easier to look at and don't have an atrocious UI and key mapping, to begin with? I know It sound conflicting, but whatever. I'm Mostly interested in I to III but also IV to VI would be appreciated, thanks.

 

[octavius]

Lazarus and Ultima 6 Project. U5 and 6 in Dungeon Siege engine.
Haven't played Lazarus yet, but I really liked U6P.

 

[Sacibengala]

Lazarus and Ultima 6 Project. U5 and 6 in Dungeon Siege engine.
Haven't played Lazarus yet, but I really liked U6P.

I saw this one, but it seems to be a completely different experience. I'm curious, though, it supports multiplayer?

 

[octavius]

Not AFAIK.

 

[Joonas]

I'm really interested in playing the early Ultimas games and I wish to know if any of it had a quality remaster/remake made by the community? Faithful in the best ways, like feeling graphics and gameplay. but that's also easier to look at and don't have an atrocious UI and key mapping, to begin with? I know It sound conflicting, but whatever. I'm Mostly interested in I to III but also IV to VI would be appreciated, thanks.

You could try the Ultimapper that I made for Ultima V. It doesn't help with the key mapping, but might modernize the experience just enough.

http://u5.zorbus.net

 

[ShaggyMoose]

Lazarus and Ultima 6 Project. U5 and 6 in Dungeon Siege engine.
Haven't played Lazarus yet, but I really liked U6P.

They are very similar in terms of the usage of the DS engine; not perfect, but generally playable. I managed to finish U5 despite a great sense of fatigue by the final dungeon. Unfortunately, I abandoned U6 in the great library because the performance was atrocious and I could never find the NPC that was supposed to be in there.

 

[newtmonkey]

I'm really interested in playing the early Ultimas games and I wish to know if any of it had a quality remaster/remake made by the community? Faithful in the best ways, like feeling graphics and gameplay. but that's also easier to look at and don't have an atrocious UI and key mapping, to begin with? I know It sound conflicting, but whatever. I'm Mostly interested in I to III but also IV to VI would be appreciated, thanks.

There's basically nothing for Ultima I and Ultima II, but I wouldn't recommend playing those unless you really get into Ultima and want to see how it changed over the years.
Honestly, the NES version of Ultima III is not bad. It changes some things around but the overall structure is the same. The only problem I had with it is that it's very unbalanced and MUCH harder than the PC version.

 

[mkultra]

Apart from Divine Divinity, Pirahna Byte's games and TES, is there anything else Ultima 7-like (= similar AI behavior and world interactivity)?

 

[Drunken Irishman]

Apart from Divine Divinity, Pirahna Byte's games and TES, is there anything else Ultima 7-like (= similar AI behavior and world interactivity)?

Ultima 6. :D

Savage Empire and Martian Dreams.

Serpent Isle.

Arx Fatalis simulates Ultima Underworld and even has bread baking.

It sucks to be an Ultima 7 appreciator, there's really nothing else exactly quite like it.

Immersive sims are imo the closest to the ethos of Ultima 7. They may not have the same features, and it may not be obvious due to most of them being first person action games, but Ultima 7 and immersive sims share a similar ethos. The player has to really engage with the game world and use it's tools to come up with his own solutions. The game gives you a goal, but you find your own solution to the problems you encounter.

 

[mkultra]

Serpent Isle is Ultima 7. It's the one i prefer of the two. Never played the others (well i did play 8 and 9) and i think they're a skip for me, i just hate the frame skipping, it's so distracting.
Arx Fatalis, yeah, it was decent. It's on such a small scale though, doesn't have the epic feel of either u7 or uuw.. obviously i like immersive shooters like stalker too, though it's not very comparable at all to Ultima 7 or UUW. it's too bad is such a rare genre, the immersive sim/rpg in a fantasy setting. Rimworld is what has caught my attention the most in the recent years, still not similar to u7 ofc...

Apart from Divine Divinity, Pirahna Byte's games and TES, is there anything else Ultima 7-like (= similar AI behavior and world interactivity)?

Ultima 6. :D

Savage Empire and Martian Dreams.

Serpent Isle.

Arx Fatalis simulates Ultima Underworld and even has bread baking.

It sucks to be an Ultima 7 appreciator, there's really nothing else exactly quite like it.

Immersive sims are imo the closest to the ethos of Ultima 7. They may not have the same features, and it may not be obvious due to most of them being first person action games, but Ultima 7 and immersive sims share a similar ethos. The player has to really engage with the game world and use it's tools to come up with his own solutions. The game gives you a goal, but you find your own solution to the problems you encounter.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Apart from Divine Divinity, Pirahna Byte's games and TES, is there anything else Ultima 7-like (= similar AI behavior and world interactivity)?

I haven't played it, but doesn't Kingdom Come: Deliverance qualify?t

 

[mkultra]

Apart from Divine Divinity, Pirahna Byte's games and TES, is there anything else Ultima 7-like (= similar AI behavior and world interactivity)?

I haven't played it, but doesn't Kingdom Come: Deliverance qualify?t

I think you're actually right, it kind of does. I couldn't stand the combat, but i think i should pick it up again. Hope i have my old save because the start.. wow, it goes on for way too long. Very draining when you're looking to play an "open world game".

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Oh, there's also Zelda: Breath of the Wild.

 

[mkultra]

Oh, there's also Zelda: Breath of the Wild.

Nah.. It does have some world interactivity, but not even close to Ultima 7.. i mean it's not like you can open every drawer or closet in botw to find various loot. neither is NPC schedules like in u7, not even close. Some of them might go to sleep, i think that's it, they just stand on their spot otherwise, in u7 they go to work, do stuff in their homes.

 

[Cael]

These early designers were good at getting products out to market? What market?
How many copies of Wizardry 1 or Ultima 1 were sold? The developers didn't "get products to market fast" they invented the market. Wizardry sold 30K copies, Ultima 1 sold 20K. The market wasn't ripe - there wasn't one.

I'm pretty sure most of the boomer designers would tell you this as well. In fact, I recall hearing a few of them talking about this very thing in interviews themselves. For some reason you seem to be in denial about it. I suggest if you ever meet one of them in person you ask them why they haven't been able to repeat the success in today's market proportionally to their earlier achievements. They know the market is not the same as when they were previously successful. Still, none of this belittles their previous accomplishments, but the conditions of the market are always part of the success. You can't have one without the other.

Curious, what is your favorite Ultima game anyway?

I met Gary Gygax on several occasions an that's enough meeting for one lifetime. But you ask about my favorite Ultima, and that's a jolly good question, old bean.

Favorite Ultima? Eh, lets see:

• Ultima 1 & 2 & 3: Associate those with being young and playing disk copies of them on the C64. Liked U2 a lot as it was all over, but never had much for U3, which is my least favorite. I could still play U2 all day, tho.
• Ultima IV: now we are on to something. Really liked this, but would be very difficult for me to play again as I still know where the mystic arms are, how powerful bows are, and probably wouldn't take notes. But its my favorite or close to my favorite.
• Ultima V: Uh... never finished this. The only one. Made it almost to the end and then Blackthorn cut off Iolo's head. I sorta stopped.
• Ultima VI: Liked a lot. Very good graphics and sound on the Amiga. Never replayed or even considered it, so I guess this is a knock agin' it.
• Ultima VII/SI: Fantastic. First IBM Ultima to play. Combat was, well, I know what they were *trying* for, but the story and engagement was staggering. Probably favorite based on # of replays. So yah, this would be my favorite as, while I hold Bard's Tale in high regard, I don't picture myself hand mapping the dungeons the same way I can't picture myself filling a notebook with Ultima IV notes.
• Ultima VIII: Finished it unpatched. Was a grueling, disappointing horror. The patch made it better but the story and lack of engagement, and crappy engine were only slightly better. Really depressing environment, philosophy, and execution.
• Ultima IX: Played it when it came out. Stopped due to horrific frame rates, finished it after the 1.18f patch or the one before it. Still return and play it from time to time as the graphics, music, and overall atmosphere were ahead of its time. What a wasted opportunity, though, just like Ultima 8. Think this game and RG both had their heads up their asses about Ultima's place in the grand scheme of things and elevated how interested anyone would be on RG's personal philosophy. Exquisitely moronic use of the virtues.
• UW1: Amazing game at the time, blew me away, solid experience from top to bottom.
• UW2: Great, greater viewing area, but kinda gets a little bogged down in the middle. Not as engaging a story as UW1.

Blackthorn cutting off Iolo's head would be when you went hunting for the Crown. That is no where close to the end. You still have multiple forays into the underworld plus getting the password for the last dungeon and the last dungeon itself. Getting the Crown would be half-way through, unless you somehow brute forced your way down into the Underworld multiple times without it... >.<

 

[Sacibengala]

I'm really interested in playing the early Ultimas games and I wish to know if any of it had a quality remaster/remake made by the community? Faithful in the best ways, like feeling graphics and gameplay. but that's also easier to look at and don't have an atrocious UI and key mapping, to begin with? I know It sound conflicting, but whatever. I'm Mostly interested in I to III but also IV to VI would be appreciated, thanks.

Anyone played those and could tell me if it is worth? Seems like it is what I was talking about http://reconstruction.voyd.net/index.php?event=project&typeKeyword=upgrades