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KickStarter The Legends of Eisenwald Thread

Aterdux Entertainment

Aterdux Entertainment
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Minsk, Belarus
For this game quasi-historical worked well in my opinion. It's also easier in terms of art content - producing in addition all those models of elves and dwarves would have made impossible to even release the game as I doubt we would have money for that. I am not saying we will stay always in this historical setting though. As I said, our results so far are inconclusive.

And I don't think it's the other high profile games that hurt us. It's more of a Greenlight flood that made players even more suspicious of indies.
 

Aterdux Entertainment

Aterdux Entertainment
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No promises here. We are exploring all the options, including finding a publisher, so we did the game the way we wanted, maybe it's worth to see if the compromises with someone else would bring us anything good.
 

Jimmious

Arcane
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
If you want to keep going for this kind of games, for a LoE 2 I would focus in more AI activity, eg other heroes like you roaming and upgrading constantly and stuff like that. Make it feel alive and procedurally developing, it would be a great selling point
 

Aterdux Entertainment

Aterdux Entertainment
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If you want to keep going for this kind of games, for a LoE 2 I would focus in more AI activity, eg other heroes like you roaming and upgrading constantly and stuff like that. Make it feel alive and procedurally developing, it would be a great selling point
This is unlikely. Again a lot of work and hard to sell. We lived over 5 years on minimal salaries, won't be able to do that a few more years needed to implement that.
 

Aterdux Entertainment

Aterdux Entertainment
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Minsk, Belarus
Procedural generation and upgrading is much more of a strategy and in present framework we do not have anything strategic ecept the simple castle management. We could add this strategy layer or multiplayer or more content but the thing is we doubt it will be profitable. Our investors don't think it's wise usage of little funds we have and I have to agree here.
 

amurath

Educated
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Here's my opinion as to what holds this game from being truly great. As you pointed out, the meat of the game is the tactical combat - that's what you'll probably spend 70-80% of the game doing. Unfortunately, the combat lacks sufficient depth to remain interesting throughout the ~40 hour campaign. There just isn't enough variety in unit abilities or character progression to keep things fresh. Your hero's abilities aren't terribly exciting and you'll acquire most of them in the first two chapters anyway. Once you've leveled up your troops and settled on a successful combat strategy, individual encounters become more of a chore than anything, since the enemy really can't offer much of a challenge at that point. The addition of a fast combat button helps, but is somewhat inefficient and if I use it then feel like I'm skipping the biggest part of the game.

If we compare Legends of Eisenwald to some other tactical strategy/RPGs - like Blackguards and Disciples, for example - you can see that those games offer a greater variety of tactical challenges. For example, Blackguards has large battlefields with traps and other obstacles, as well as a wide variety of character abilities and spells. Disciples doesn't allow for much tactical flexibility, but at least offers a diverse range of opponents in the four different races, each with their own units and upgrade paths. On the other hand, Eisenwald has a single "race" - human, and you'll quickly figure out the "best" unit type and how to counter enemy units of the same type. As I mentioned above, hero progression doesn't bring any notable diversity to the combat either. At least with Disciples, you had an extra city management/global spellcasting mechanic that spiced things up a bit.

I actually feel that Eisenwald's story is solid, but it is the setting that somewhat limits the available combat diversity. Of course, it's unreasonable to expect mages to be casting fireballs in medieval Germany, or to fight with actual demons. If you guys do decide to iterate on the formula, I think a more traditional high fantasy setting, like the one in the recent King's Bounty series, might actually be more fun/interesting. Alternatively, if you decide to stick with a historical setting, you can at least try to make the battlefields larger and the combat situations more varied. For example, you could have ambushes where you're attacked from two sides, or three-way battles between you and two other hostile forces. Additionally, sieges can be improved by having a narrow path with a gate/drawbridge that your melee troops would have to break down before they could engage the archers on the walls. Elevation would help improve ranged combat, etc.

Again, I feel that, despite its flaws, Eisenwald is a really solid first effort from an unknown developer, and I would encourage you to keep making games that you like, whether or not they become bestsellers. If you manage to build a loyal following through a series of solid games, then commercial success will follow. I know I'll certainly be inclined to support your next game, if you decide to return to Kickstarter or fund it yourselves.
 

Aterdux Entertainment

Aterdux Entertainment
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Again, I feel that, despite its flaws, Eisenwald is a really solid first effort from an unknown developer, and I would encourage you to keep making games that you like, whether or not they become bestsellers. If you manage to build a loyal following through a series of solid games, then commercial success will follow. I know I'll certainly be inclined to support your next game, if you decide to return to Kickstarter or fund it yourselves.
Thank you. We can't afford that unfortunately. Kickstarter is not much of an option - if we ask for a real amount we need to complete the game, we are not going to get it. For example, to make a full blown expansion with firearms we would need something around 100k, maybe 110-120. But then it raises lots of questions why we were gathering just 50k for the game and more than twice as much just for an expansion. For this reason, we are looking into other, less time and resources consuming options.

You are the first person who provided a really good point I never thought of and it is about Disciples and the variety of the enemies. I really appreciate your insight! To me it seemed our combat is as good as in Disciples 2 but yup, they had more races and enemies indeed.
 

Cadmus

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Dec 28, 2013
Messages
4,280
Thank you. We can't afford that unfortunately. Kickstarter is not much of an option - if we ask for a real amount we need to complete the game, we are not going to get it. For example, to make a full blown expansion with firearms we would need something around 100k, maybe 110-120. But then it raises lots of questions why we were gathering just 50k for the game and more than twice as much just for an expansion. For this reason, we are looking into other, less time and resources consuming options.

You are the first person who provided a really good point I never thought of and it is about Disciples and the variety of the enemies. I really appreciate your insight! To me it seemed our combat is as good as in Disciples 2 but yup, they had more races and enemies indeed.
But I just told you Xulima had better combat, too +M
At least there you got the status effects and plenty more spells and abilities for the monsters.

I still quite like your combat and I disagree it's what you spend 80% game on, I seem to be mostly running around and healing in churches.
Since you mentioned Disciples 2, they added I think 1 extra round at the end to let you heal some units if you had a healer. It would have been nice to have here as well as even though you say people can just go to church to heal and it's all the same, it's not the same. It's annoying, especially at the start when you don't have all that gold to be bending over backwards to allow more rounds for your healer to heal your already winning army and I'm pretty sure people must be doing that because otherwise you get to go there and back again to church and then fight 1 more fight and back to church and back again because it's stupid to go with your 10 HP newbie archer you need to lvl up.
 

Aterdux Entertainment

Aterdux Entertainment
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But I just told you Xulima had better combat, too +M
At least there you got the status effects and plenty more spells and abilities for the monsters.
I respectfully disagree :) For once, check this video I told you about - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOrVz7a1nRI

And as for healing, in our first game there was this issue of delaying combat to heal. So, we solved it and Disciples 2 had this too - you could stay in combat and heal everyone by defending. No plans to change this one.
 

zeitgeist

Magister
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I will look into it a bit further when I find the time, but I spent a few minutes watching gameplay videos on Youtube, and every single combat encounter I fast forwarded to looked exactly the same, two similar looking blobs of generic medieval models standing in a really tiny and completely empty arena in melee or near-melee range, using what appeared to be default attack animations for a specific weapon type. To someone who's unfamiliar with the vast intricacies of your deep and varied combat/skill/equipment system, it just looks incredibly bland.

Another factor regarding the lack of sales might be this: from 2012, when the Kickstarter for this was first posted to this day I haven't heard a single word about this game anywhere outside of RPGCodex. This appears to be a massive failure in the marketing department (I'm actually not convinced that it's just because the game itself is so bland/uninteresting looking at first glance - much worse games have managed to generate a lot more buzz).

Lastly, I'm not entirely sure why the lack of sales is even a problem if you had a Kickstarter campaign. The only two reasons I can think of is that you didn't ask for a full amount needed to make the game and now you're in debt to someone/something, which would be silly, or that you hoped for a lot more money than the game production actually cost, which would be greedy. Am I missing something?
 

Archibald

Arcane
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Aug 26, 2010
Messages
7,869
Lastly, I'm not entirely sure why the lack of sales is even a problem if you had a Kickstarter campaign. The only two reasons I can think of is that you didn't ask for a full amount needed to make the game and now you're in debt to someone/something, which would be silly, or that you hoped for a lot more money than the game production actually cost, which would be greedy. Am I missing something?

New players in town will not get enough money from Kickstarter to fully develop decent game. All big Kickstarter hits were either related to some big franchise, had some old veterans cashing in their legacy or both. Eisenwald had neither of those.
 

Cadmus

Arcane
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Messages
4,280
I respectfully disagree :) For once, check this video I told you about - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOrVz7a1nRI

And as for healing, in our first game there was this issue of delaying combat to heal. So, we solved it and Disciples 2 had this too - you could stay in combat and heal everyone by defending. No plans to change this one.
I watched the video. Sorry, I don't see anything interesting there at all. It's all pretty basic stuff. I also changed my party formation like once when there was a tough battle.
Look, I'm not saying the system is bad but it's not terribly deep or interesting either.

Anyway, how's the game selling? Did you break even yet?

I played a bit more tonight but I'm still in the map with the wolf, widow and uuh pastor. I got bored and assaulted 2 out of 3 guys and now I'm not sure what needs to happen in order for the chancellor to tell me I intimidated them enough to form an alliance against the wolf. Everything but the big castles and some farms around seems to be taken by my communist army.
 

sser

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Mar 10, 2011
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I don't think gameplay is really any reason why the game may not have sold well. I can point out a number of titles that sold just fine with genuinely bad gameplay. We even got a subforum for a few of them.

The aesthetic was too generic. That was the problem. LoE is in a market full of aggressively priced (sub-$20, frequently on sale) strategy games that have a unique "indie" look to them, and the game's primary competitor (IMO) is HoMM, which is an established series with a lot of fantasy elements to help overcome its own generic presentation.

I'd explain more but I gotta go to work. Anyway, yeah, that's what I think.
 

zeitgeist

Magister
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Aug 12, 2010
Messages
1,444
New players in town will not get enough money from Kickstarter to fully develop decent game. All big Kickstarter hits were either related to some big franchise, had some old veterans cashing in their legacy or both. Eisenwald had neither of those.
Well, it's what they asked for. If they asked for less than they absolutely needed, then the problem is internal.
 

Archibald

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How its internal problem? If they asked for more they likely wouldn't have gotten any money at all.
 

Aterdux Entertainment

Aterdux Entertainment
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Messages
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Minsk, Belarus
Well, it's what they asked for. If they asked for less than they absolutely needed, then the problem is internal.
During our Kickstarter campaign we thought 50k would be enough (we spent close to 200k before Kickstarter went live). But we greatly underestimated the amount of money needed to complete the game.

I don't think gameplay is really any reason why the game may not have sold well. I can point out a number of titles that sold just fine with genuinely bad gameplay. We even got a subforum for a few of them.

The aesthetic was too generic. That was the problem. LoE is in a market full of aggressively priced (sub-$20, frequently on sale) strategy games that have a unique "indie" look to them, and the game's primary competitor (IMO) is HoMM, which is an established series with a lot of fantasy elements to help overcome its own generic presentation.
Yup, agree with you on this one. We wanted more realistic look but realistic many interpret as generic. Probably our biggest mistake. And agree on gameplay. What sells games is not gameplay but presentation, marketing and PR.

Anyway, how's the game selling? Did you break even yet?
Nope, not yet. But could be relatively soon.
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
Yup, agree with you on this one. We wanted more realistic look but realistic many interpret as generic. Probably our biggest mistake. And agree on gameplay. What sells games is not gameplay but presentation, marketing and PR.

That's sad. Personally I liked the realistic look as opposed to using generic fantasy stuff and found the presentation to be very good, esp. for an indie game.
 

Aterdux Entertainment

Aterdux Entertainment
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That's sad. Personally I liked the realistic look as opposed to using generic fantasy stuff and found the presentation to be very good, esp. for an indie game.
I know but unfortunately majorify of players, even here on Codex, are graphics whores including myself. It's not that I am dying to see next gen graphics but there is a certain level I expect from the games and for example I can't play any of the pixel stuff. I think most people don't even realize that they are so visual. I thought new setting plus new combat and good story would be enough but I was mistaken.
 

Aterdux Entertainment

Aterdux Entertainment
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Messages
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Minsk, Belarus
watched the video. Sorry, I don't see anything interesting there at all. It's all pretty basic stuff. I also changed my party formation like once when there was a tough battle.
Look, I'm not saying the system is bad but it's not terribly deep or interesting either.
I spent over two hours trying to win in that battle. Download a save from this thread and see if you can beat ANY of the battles here: http://steamcommunity.com/app/246760/discussions/0/535151589887863629/

It's not basic stuff and I bet you won't be able to win any in a reasonable amount of time :)
 

4249

I stalk the night
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I'm in the wolf, priest and bitch scenario on the second highest difficulty with Mystic and so far I'm having a lot of fun with the combat system and think it's pretty unique. Sure, it's not overly deep, but sometimes (especially when taking on harder foes) it feels like a puzzle of sorts that you have to try out a few times before finding the proper combination of moves, due to the AI acting in very similar patterns on retries and the area of combat being the same for all battles.

My mindset outside the combat is summed up by the title of this song:
 
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Aterdux Entertainment

Aterdux Entertainment
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Joined
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Messages
553
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Minsk, Belarus
I'm in the wolf, priest and bitch scenario on the second highest difficulty with Mystic and so far I'm having a lot of fun with the combat system and think it's pretty unique. Sure, it's not overly deep, but sometimes (especially when taking on harder foes) it feels like a puzzle of sorts that you have to try out a few times before finding the proper combination of moves, due to the AI acting in very similar patterns on retries and the area of combat being the same for all battles.
Exactly! Taking on harder battles is the key - and then it's indeed a puzzle to be solved. Cool music!
 
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So the DLC was released today. Might pick it up and give it a try.
 

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