The Japs do everything better

[GamerCat_]

What does it even mean to talk about "technology fetishization" in computer games? Fetishization is the use of images as conduits for something else, something that can't be understood or participated in except by means of this fetish. Tribal peoples use crocodile amulets and tiger fangs as fetishes because they believe they contain hidden powers derived from these animals. If I were to think of an example of "technological fetishization", most of the hype surrounding AI could serve as an example, as it's founded upon an image of something (AI as represented in science-fiction) which is only a consequence of an underlying reality(technological development) that isn't generally understood. I've noticed the people with deep knowledge of computer science and statistical models tend to be harder to impress in this regard, and do not think this way. Fetishization is always an outside perspective.

You raise a valid point. It might be more accurate to say that the fans of these works are the ones with the "technology fetishisation", but perhaps not the ones making them. To a character like Lyric Suite the superior power and realism of gay and boring and forgotten computer games is like the crocodile tooth of a papuan tribesman. There's some comforting power in the vague sideways way he sees and talks about this thing.

What's going on with the creation of these games is simply Americans being boring uncultured fucks who never think to let artists near computers, or anything but established fields where they have an established understanding and old places in existing infrastructure for them to be plugged in where it's known as their place, at which point they are worked to death.

Western games which are heavily into simulation, abstract representations of reality and such, are not fetishistic of technology anymore than a skyscraper, a sports car, a swiss army knife, a fighter jet or a high speed train. Moreover, they don't simply represent technology as such, that is, cumulative knowledge and increasing complexity; they take technology in a certain direction, which is akin to art. Western nations, and perhaps East Asia, were even able to conceive of industrial policy in these terms. The new green fad is still representative of this, although degenerated. This is altogether different from the way many of the world's peoples conceive of technology as a kind of "white man magic"; that is also how technological development is sold to proles, as some kind of voodoo, in order to awe them and convince them to defer to experts.

Yes, in the case of creators fetishistic is mostly not the word. Though I do believe there are also cases of guys convincing themselves that there's something vaguely cool and magical about building more technical stuff for no grasped higher reason. Who those guys might be would be highly debatable.

Since this whole issue of what constitutes "fetishisation" depends on what people make of things, we should probably try not to talk about it in general much. We could write pages while saying nothing. My fault, I should be far more particular with my language considering I'm trying to blaze trails again. I could lead us all off track for another thirty years. But I do like the sound of the word fetishisation.

As for RPGs, there's obviously a link between sim racing and, say, using the Doctor skill to heal broken limbs in Fallout. They're both trying to do the same thing. RPGs aren't simply a historical accident. Many of the improvised games I played with other kids had spontaneous elements of this kind of abstract roleplaying. I'd go as far as saying that western RPGs are too dependent on D&D, but what about all the RPGs that use their own systems, or adapt lesser known ones? Simulation is also a very fertile artistic field; many WRPGs and simracers have had impeccable artistic direction. I had dreams about them multiple times.

Sim racing we could say is born from a process of minimising abstraction. While RPG comes from embracing certain approaches to hard limits in representation.

Anyway, excuse me for barging into the discussion. I've only read the last page and may be restating someone else's opinion or misrepresenting someone's position.

You're fine. We're getting nowhere slowly here for the most part and I have a feeling you're probably one of the smartest people here.

 

[Morenatsu.]

toys are awesome

 

[Lyric Suite]

"Medium" suggests that these things were vessels rather than the point in themselves in each case. A serious medium for doing what?

Exploring possibilities in computing technology and testing the grounds of what is possible in virtual rapresentation. You might as well ask why does computing technology exists at all in the first place and why science as a whole is considered a serious pursuit.

I can appreciate the level of mechanical cleverness within the scope of the particular form Japanese developers adopted but that doesn't mean i have to invariably underplay or disparage the other side of the coin, which is that video games can also be approached from the perspective of a science, which played a big role in the history of PC gaming, up to and including stuff like Doom (and it's not accidental that John Carmack went on developing virtual reality technologies. Always the desire to push "forward" in some way).

Japanese games have a lot of inventiveness in terms of the mechanics in their games (especially in lieu of the dearth of the same in modern western gaming) but in so far as their conception of the form goes they are entirely one track.

 

[Reinhardt]

I can appreciate the level of mechanical cleverness within the scope of the particular form Japanese developers adopted but that doesn't mean i have to invariably underplay or disparage the other side of the coin, which is that video games can also be approached from the perspective of computing technology or a science, which played a big role in the history of PC gaming, up to and including stuff like Doom.

cleverness to make good game with avaialble instruments > washed up retards too dumb to find better paying job than in game industry. first involves creativity, which could lead to advance, second - only mechanical repetition.

 

[GamerCat_]

toys are awesome

Games that are like "toys" in various games is its own interesting subject (The Japanese win again in both senses). Things can both be designed or look like toys. Or they can have a toy like appeal of various kinds. I always liked Advance Wars and Battalion Wars for both reasons. Charming to look at visually. And that appeal of having nice little objects and hitting them against each other.

This is also why I like "strategy games". Living toyboxes. What a shame we only got two Battalion Wars games.

"Medium" suggests that these things were vessels rather than the point in themselves in each case. A serious medium for doing what?

Exploring possibilities in computing technology and testing the grounds of what is possible in virtual rapresentation. You might as well ask why does computing technology exists at all in the first place and why science as a whole is considered a serious pursuit.

Science exists to facilitate and realise art and philosophy. You are my dog.

I can appreciate the level of mechanical cleverness within the scope of the particular form Japanese developers adopted but that doesn't mean i have to invariably underplay or disparage the other side of the coin, which is that video games can also be approached from the perspective of a science, which played a big role in the history of PC gaming, up to and including stuff like Doom (and it's not accidental that John Carmack went on developing virtual reality technologies. Always the desire to push "forward" in some way).

I pay these people a kind of due. Thanks for that, now what are cool people doing with it?

Japanese games have a lot of inventiveness in terms of the mechanics in their games (especially in lieu of the dearth of the same in modern western gaming) but in so far as their conception of the form goes they are entirely one track.

Meaning?

 

[Lyric Suite]

Meaning that if you exclusively live in that world it feels like you are just wasiting time with toys after a while.

 

[GamerCat_]

Meaning that if you exclusively live in that world it feels like you are just wasiting time with toys after a while.

Well of course, what's the point of anime if we aren't ultimately intending to make it real?

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

As for RPGs, there's obviously a link between sim racing and, say, using the Doctor skill to heal broken limbs in Fallout. They're both trying to do the same thing. RPGs aren't simply a historical accident. Many of the improvised games I played with other kids had spontaneous elements of this kind of abstract roleplaying. I'd go as far as saying that western RPGs are too dependent on D&D, but what about all the RPGs that use their own systems, or adapt lesser known ones? Simulation is also a very fertile artistic field; many WRPGs and simracers have had impeccable artistic direction. I had dreams about them multiple times.

Sim racing we could say is born from a process of minimising abstraction. While RPG comes from embracing certain approaches to hard limits in representation.

Yes, sure. It's often by necessity, but there's usually a certain tension between these two approaches inside RPGs, usually the better ones. Even when you had highly abstract systems, older RPGs liked to compensate by lengthy explanation of certain aspects of their worlds, that's why you often got very thick manuals that told about the lore of a place or how certain things(like courts and guilds) worked. See, for example, how much thought was put into the difference between radiation and FEV in original Fallout:



Obviously, you can play the game without caring about any of this, but it's there, it's part of the game. Mind you, this practice was in common with simulation games(such as flight sims) of the 90s and before. They came with often several hundred pages long manuals that would fit in a library shelf, explaining every tiny detail of the airplane, aerodynamics and everything else. All completely unnecessary if you were a 10 year old who bought a game with a cool airplane on the cover. The further back in time you trace RPG history into the wargames developed by the military, the clearer the connection between these two worlds becomes. Tim Cain himself was initiated into tabletop roleplaying(and probably other things) by someone in the military, and that's a story I've heard elsewhere also. Myself, I have no experience of tabletop gaming, only computer games.

Also worthy of consideration are roguelikes. Games like Dwarf Fortress and CDDA are still abstract, they have stats and such, but they've also gone off the deep end in simulating aspects of reality, to the point where many consider them "not fun anymore". In fact, everyone seems to have a different opinion on what constitutes "too much" in this regard. The CDDA community is now split into "simulationist" and "game design" camps, for example.

Before derailing this topic too much, let me just note that these seem like things that preoccupy Western game development more than the Japanese. They like their simulations too, but they apparently see it as its own separate thing. None of the JRPGs I've played give any thought to stuff like "what other towns does this town trade with?" or "what kind of character would be able to use a computer?". It's OK, I don't play them for that, even if I can't help notice some things, such as "where do people that visit the Gold Saucer in FF7 come from?". That's unavoidable when you grow up playing Ultima VII.

Anyway, excuse me for barging into the discussion. I've only read the last page and may be restating someone else's opinion or misrepresenting someone's position.

You're fine. We're getting nowhere slowly here for the most part and I have a feeling you're probably one of the smartest people here.

Thank you. I'm a superficial man who craves the appreciation of strangers on the internet.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Science exists to facilitate and realise art and philosophy. You are my dog.

Not really, no. Science is an expression of a specific philosophy and metaphysical paradigm. Science doesn't facilitate art and in fact has zero to do with art. You can use technology to make art but gaming doesn't really fall into that category, not like film did. Yes, there's craft involved in making games but that's not the same thing.

Games are an interactive medium that just happen to have some art in them. The essence of gaming is not those secondary artistic elements that have been grafted onto the medium over time. It's the mechanics and their purpose. That's why games aren't art and cannot be art. They have art in them, but that's different.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Meaning that if you exclusively live in that world it feels like you are just wasiting time with toys after a while.

Well of course, what's the point of anime if we aren't ultimately intending to make it real?

Well, isn't it a fact that anime is not as serious a medium as actual cinema?

 

[GamerCat_]

As for RPGs, there's obviously a link between sim racing and, say, using the Doctor skill to heal broken limbs in Fallout. They're both trying to do the same thing. RPGs aren't simply a historical accident. Many of the improvised games I played with other kids had spontaneous elements of this kind of abstract roleplaying. I'd go as far as saying that western RPGs are too dependent on D&D, but what about all the RPGs that use their own systems, or adapt lesser known ones? Simulation is also a very fertile artistic field; many WRPGs and simracers have had impeccable artistic direction. I had dreams about them multiple times.

Sim racing we could say is born from a process of minimising abstraction. While RPG comes from embracing certain approaches to hard limits in representation.

Yes, sure. It's often by necessity, but there's usually a certain tension between these two approaches inside RPGs, usually the better ones. Even when you had highly abstract systems, older RPGs liked to compensate by lengthy explanation of certain aspects of their worlds, that's why you often got very thick manuals that told about the lore of a place or how certain things(like courts and guilds) worked. See, for example, how much thought was put into the difference between radiation and FEV in original Fallout:



Obviously, you can play the game without caring about any of this, but it's there, it's part of the game. Mind you, this practice was in common with simulation games(such as flight sims) of the 90s and before. They came with often several hundred pages long manuals that would fit in a library shelf, explaining every tiny detail of the airplane, aerodynamics and everything else. All completely unnecessary if you were a 10 year old who bought a game with a cool airplane on the cover. The further back in time you trace RPG history into the wargames developed by the military, the clearer the connection between these two worlds becomes. Tim Cain himself was initiated into tabletop roleplaying(and probably other things) by someone in the military, and that's a story I've heard elsewhere also. Myself, I have no experience of tabletop gaming, only computer games.

Yes, as I may have said already, something RPGs have in common with much media other than video games. Many RPGs are heavily multimedia and are mostly appreciated for their non-game elements. With the game being a best possible attempt at making it real at scale, or offering a novel experience within the greater idea. Why I keep suggesting that things other than RPGs should be of interest to RPG fans if the appreciation isn't fetishistic.

Also worthy of consideration are roguelikes. Games like Dwarf Fortress and CDDA are still abstract, they have stats and such, but they've also gone off the deep end in simulating aspects of reality, to the point where many consider them "not fun anymore". In fact, everyone seems to have a different opinion on what constitutes "too much" in this regard. The CDDA community is now split into "simulationist" and "game design" camps, for example.

This is what I meant about certain creators becoming fetishistic. What exactly are these guys doing at this point when they keep adding? What does this depth of simulation mean to them?

Before derailing this topic too much, let me just note that these seem like things that preoccupy Western game development more than the Japanese. They like their simulations too, but they apparently see it as its own separate thing. None of the JRPGs I've played give any thought to stuff like "what other towns does this town trade with?" or "what kind of character would be able to use a computer?". It's OK, I don't play them for that, even if I can't help notice some things, such as "where do people that visit the Gold Saucer in FF7 come from?". That's unavoidable when you grow up playing Ultima VII.

It is a tendency which carries over from game-logic to world-logic. They're very comfortable with making accommodations to form. Final Fantasy can just be like that. I love it. The Gold Saucer is amazing.

Anyway, excuse me for barging into the discussion. I've only read the last page and may be restating someone else's opinion or misrepresenting someone's position.

You're fine. We're getting nowhere slowly here for the most part and I have a feeling you're probably one of the smartest people here.

Thank you. I'm a superficial man who craves the appreciation of strangers on the internet.

Anytime, stranger.

 

[GamerCat_]

Science exists to facilitate and realise art and philosophy. You are my dog.

Not really, no. Science is an expression of a specific philosophy and metaphysical paradigm. Science doesn't facilitate art and in fact has zero to do with art. You can use technology to make art but gaming doesn't really fall into that category, not like film did. Yes, there's craft involved in making games but that's not the same thing.

Yes it is. Science facilitates art. The philosophy leads to science which leads to anime which leads to eugenics which leads to humanity being engineered into immortal 15 year old elves (Frieren will become real).

Games are an interactive medium that just happen to have some art in them. The essence of gaming is not those secondary artistic elements that have been grafted onto the medium over time. It's the mechanics and their purpose. That's why games aren't art and cannot be art. They have art in them, but that's different.

What a stupid post.

Meaning that if you exclusively live in that world it feels like you are just wasiting time with toys after a while.

Well of course, what's the point of anime if we aren't ultimately intending to make it real?

Well, isn't it a fact that anime is not as serious a medium as actual cinema?

ahahahahaha

 

[Lyric Suite]

This is what I meant about certain creators becoming fetishistic. What exactly are these guys doing at this point when they keep adding? What does this depth of simulation mean to them?

You are claiming the whole emphasis is fetishistic in and of itself, not just the excesses that can come out of it.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

It's the mechanics and their purpose.

This doesn't explain why they can't be art.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Well, isn't it a fact that anime is not as serious a medium as actual cinema?

ahahahahaha

Oh, are we actually gonna dispute that now?

 

[Lyric Suite]

It's the mechanics and their purpose.

This doesn't explain why they can't be art.

Is football art? Is chess art?

Or to use an example our weaboo friend here might enjoy. Is this art?



Why, because the pretty colored bullet spreads give you joy joy feelings when combined with the music? Strip that out though and all you are left is a purely mechanical process of discerning patterns and training to overcome them. A game with the same artistic presentation with simplistic patterns wouldn't be considered as worthy as the above, would it?

 

[GamerCat_]

This is what I meant about certain creators becoming fetishistic. What exactly are these guys doing at this point when they keep adding? What does this depth of simulation mean to them?

You are claiming the whole emphasis is fetishistic in and of itself, not just the excesses that can come out of it.

My suggestion is that when this becomes excessive that is a sign it is fetishistic. And that making game systems without a game or any real aesthetic vision in mind may be inherently fetishistic. But I'm more willing to be challenged and rearrange things on that latter point.

Well, isn't it a fact that anime is not as serious a medium as actual cinema?

ahahahahaha

Oh, are we actually gonna dispute that now?

It's a disagreement we've already had over and over and you've proven yourself unequipped to participate.

It's the mechanics and their purpose.

This doesn't explain why they can't be art.

Is football art?

A better comparison might be a movie about football.



Is this art?

 

[Morenatsu.]

A better comparison might be a movie about football.

Actually, games are like football about a movie.

 

[Lyric Suite]

My suggestion is that when this becomes excessive that is a sign it is fetishistic.

No, that's not a valid argument because everything can be taken to an excess. The existence of a massive autist like Sorabji doesn't mean counterpoint as an art was a fetish, implicating Bach in the process.

It's a disagreement we've already had over and over and you've proven yourself unequipped to participate.

But, how...

By all means, i want you to explain to me how anime even remotely compares to actual cinema.

 

[Morenatsu.]

It's true, anime and film are incomparable. I actually care about anime lmao

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Strip that out though and all you are left is a purely mechanical process of discerning patterns and training to overcome them.

You just described martial arts
And culinary arts
And dance
And sculpture
You can literally apply this definition to any other art forms...

 

[Morenatsu.]

Poasting is art

 

[GamerCat_]

A better comparison might be a movie about football.

Actually, games are like football about a movie.

I disagree.

My suggestion is that when this becomes excessive that is a sign it is fetishistic.

No, that's not a valid argument because everything can be taken to an excess.

Why don't you marathon the text you're quoting again.

It's a disagreement we've already had over and over and you've proven yourself unequipped to participate.

But, how...

By all means, i want you to explain to me how anime even remotely compares to actual cinema.

They are both edited and assembled sequences of audio and images displayed on screens in an order determined before screening by its creator(s).

It's true, anime and film are incomparable. I actually care about anime lmao

I am film's strongest soldier on the 'dex, in addition to being the strongest soldier of video games.

Poasting is art

Maybe if you have a cat pfp.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Strip that out though and all you are left is a purely mechanical process of discerning patterns and training to overcome them.

You just described martial arts
And culinary arts
And dance
And sculpture
You can literally apply this definition to any other art forms...

It depends on your definition of art (also, one could argue some of those things shouldn't be referred to as art either).

When people say video games are art, they mean it in terms of "art" as something higher, something loftier than mere craft. If we go by the etymological meaning of the word, craft can very much be seen as synonimous to art. Making a chair is an art. But that's not what is being argued when people claim video games are an art.

 

[GamerCat_]

It depends on your definition of art (also, one could argue some of those things shouldn't be referred to as art either).

When people say video games are art, they mean it in terms of "art" as something higher, something loftier than mere craft. If we go by the etymological meaning of the word, craft can very much be seen as synonimous to art. Making a chair is an art. But that's not what is being argued when people claim video games are an art.

This is obviously going to go badly.