The decline of the Elder Scrolls series

[madrigal]

Yes the magic system was more limited, but that decline started with daggerfall.

 

[Zeriel]

Yes the magic system was more limited, but that decline started with daggerfall.

What was in Arena that wasn't in Daggerfall? Very curious, I haven't played Arena as much.

 

[madrigal]

Yes, I'm quite certain that they only mark your map when you're within a certain radius of your target destination. Asking them multiple times won't make them mark it on your map.

My mistake, I was thinking of Daggerfall, where you can just keep clicking til they mark it on your map, I guess daggerfall was the start of the decline then.

 

[madrigal]

What was in Arena that wasn't in Daggerfall? Very curious, I haven't played Arena as much.

I don't know the exact differences, IIRC, remove wall/floor and the spellmaker allowed effects to be per level which made the spells more powerful as you leveled up. I was more referring to the spell effects like polymorph, transfer attribute and detect, which did not work so rather than fix them they were removed. I think this design philosophy of cutting things rather than making them work properly continued onto the other games in the series, that is why you see a steady decline of the number of skills/magic and stats.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Yes the magic system was more limited, but that decline started with daggerfall.

What was in Arena that wasn't in Daggerfall? Very curious, I haven't played Arena as much.

Not much.

At most, I would say:

1) A higher level of an invisibility spell that would keep you undetected even when you were physically attacking someone.
2) The ability to repair artifacts at stores
3) Fixed location of every major store item - such as Ebony Daikatana.
4) Using rumours rather than daedric summoners to get artifact quests.
5) Lava pits that force you to levitate

Obviously, I think Daggerfall is better without most of these things.

It's absolutely crazy when people say Daggerfall began the decline. I like Arena as much as any core Scrolls fan, but it is craziness to say that a relatively sterile game like that is the best of TES.

 

[jewboy]

Well, was that passwall spell available in Daggerfall? IIRC they got rid of it. Arena and Daggerfall were both made by the same company, by the same people and had a similar feel. Then the company changed ownership and every game afterwards seemed a passionless cynical money grab. I finished Arena quite easily and nearly finished Daggerfall more than once. Even though I bought a new video card specifically for Morrowind's release I couldn't play more than 20 minutes of it before quitting and sadly uninstalling the game. At the time I wasn't aware of what had happened at the company. So it was puzzling. I'm hoping that Bare Mettle is going to be the new old bethesda starting with Sui Generis. That they will be able to do what the founder could only dream of in the late 80s and early 90s.

 

[madrigal]

It's absolutely crazy when people say Daggerfall began the decline. I like Arena as much as any core Scrolls fan, but it is craziness to say that a relatively sterile game like that is the best of TES.

Do you think that cutting out content to make the game more accessible to casual gamers is decline?

Do you think removing broken magic/skills rather than fix them is decline?

Do you think asking npc's for direction getting a compass direction and then asking again and they mark it on the map is decline?

Do you think including houses just so people can dress up and decorate them and pretend they really live there is decline?

Do you think that radiant quests and 3d dungeons which change when you re-enter is decline?

 

[Zeriel]

Casual gamers actually didn't really exist when Daggerfall came out, you're seriously reaching with that one or trying to fit it into the narrative of Morrowind+ when they're basically two separate companies. Playing Daggerfall in DOS involved (like all DOS games) editing stuff like autoexec.bat, which in and of itself is more hardcore gaming than anything on the market today.

 

[madrigal]

Casual gamers actually didn't really exist when Daggerfall came out, you're seriously reaching with that one or trying to fit it into the narrative of Morrowind+ when they're basically two separate companies. Playing Daggerfall in DOS involved (like all DOS games) editing stuff like autoexec.bat, which in and of itself is more hardcore gaming than anything on the market today.

You are wrong there were console gamers who also played pc games and there were idiots that whined that arena riddles were too hard and they couldn't finish it. You are also wrong that every DOS gamer was required to edit stuff like autoexec.bat.

 

[Wyrmlord]

It's absolutely crazy when people say Daggerfall began the decline. I like Arena as much as any core Scrolls fan, but it is craziness to say that a relatively sterile game like that is the best of TES.

Do you think that cutting out content to make the game more accessible to casual gamers is decline?

Do you think removing broken magic/skills rather than fix them is decline?

Do you think asking npc's for direction getting a compass direction and then asking again and they mark it on the map is decline?

Do you think including houses just so people can dress up and decorate them and pretend they really live there is decline?

Do you think that radiant quests and 3d dungeons which change when you re-enter is decline?

What content was cut? Daggerfall added significantly more content and features, and made the game significantly more complex. So what is Passwall was cut - the game also introduced Levitation, the concept of having sounds help you detect what enemy is in the next room (also improved with Acute Hearing), and the ability to build your own magic items, apart from becoming a vampire or a werewolf. Come on!

As for getting an area marked on the map, do you realize it was also the case in Arena? Both games involved Personality checks to make sure someone points you in the right direction.

As for houses, they just allowed high level players to dump all the powerful magic items they had in order to move more lightly, and take whatever they need in the wagon. They were just much bigger ships or wagons, plus with the advantage that you could make a lot of money selling them.

Why are radiant quests decline? As long as they are good quests - such as the Mages Guild quest involving finding a rare magical ingredient last known only by one reclusive magician or in a journal in the middle of nowhere.

And the dungeons don't change. What the game did was randomly build large number of dungeons once, and then permanently fixed them. That's different. There are only the same dungeons with the same names - they don't ever change.

 

[madrigal]

Riddles were cut, per level spells, less area to explore, broken spells like polymorph.

The map issue was not the case in arena, if you had read the thread you would know this.

The problem is the quests aren't good and there is also no point in doing a fetch quest.

You may be right about dungeons but I thought that when looking for an item leaving the dungeon and entering again would change the position of these items.

And even if daggerfall is a better game does not mean it did not contribute to or start the decline, I think skyrim is better than oblivion, but I think removing stats and things like consolised UI is still decline.

 

[Luzur]

Well, was that passwall spell available in Daggerfall? IIRC they got rid of it. Arena and Daggerfall were both made by the same company, by the same people and had a similar feel. Then the company changed ownership and every game afterwards seemed a passionless cynical money grab. I finished Arena quite easily and nearly finished Daggerfall more than once. Even though I bought a new video card specifically for Morrowind's release I couldn't play more than 20 minutes of it before quitting and sadly uninstalling the game. At the time I wasn't aware of what had happened at the company. So it was puzzling. I'm hoping that Bare Mettle is going to be the new old bethesda starting with Sui Generis. That they will be able to do what the founder could only dream of in the late 80s and early 90s.

actually, they tried to implement it, but couldnt get it to work, so they opted it out.

likewise with the small wars you where supposed to encounter here and there, the files for catapults is still there along with prostitutes and other small things.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Hey guys, I was just playing Daggerfall with a high PERSONALITY character at level 8. My first time with high PER.

For some reason, Vampires and Ghosts in a particular dungeon are not attacking me. Intentional or accident? For the record, I did not put any points in Stealth.

It would be pretty amazing if there is a game where enemies cease to be hostile towards a high Personality character.

 

[Wyrmlord]

The topless characters in churches for no reason

The topless wenches in temples are apparently sex slaves for high priest Daedra summoner.

Or possibly one of the people sacrificed to daedric princes as offerings.

Or maybe they were there as symbols of the sin that the daedric princes heartily encouraged.

I always noticed that the naked ladies (they weren't merely topless) had a nasty attitude - "Me? Talk to you? AHAHAHAAHA!"

 

[Regvard]

The topless characters in churches for no reason

The topless wenches in temples are apparently sex slaves for high priest Daedra summoner.

Or possibly one of the people sacrificed to daedric princes as offerings.

Or maybe they were there as symbols of the sin that the daedric princes heartily encouraged.

I always noticed that the naked ladies (they weren't merely topless) had a nasty attitude - "Me? Talk to you? AHAHAHAAHA!"

Whore/Priestesses were common around Mesopotamia.

 

[Dustin542]

The topless characters in churches for no reason

There was only a reason for them to be in the Dibella churches.

 

[Kahlis]

The topless characters in churches for no reason

There was only a reason for them to be in the Dibella churches.

More is better than less, at least. Cyrodiil was supposed to have dozens of Dibella cults dedicated to everything from aesthetics to erotic instruction.

I guess Oblivion was done before they realized just how okay 90% of their fanbase probably would've been with that.

 

[crufty]

prefer skyrim over morrowind personally

do agree that the dungeons are linear; note that gps and quest compass are *optional* in skyrim. i left them off. also fast travel only works if you haven't been there before...

the radiant quest system wasn't so bad, it serves a purpose. i would prefer more radiant social quests though. the first thieves guild quests are about the only ones in the game iirc.

not looking fwd to the mmo though.

 

[Stabwound]

prefer skyrim over morrowind personally

do agree that the dungeons are linear; note that gps and quest compass are *optional* in skyrim. i left them off.

They're optional but the game is designed under the assumption that you'll be using them. "Go get my sword from Ghghslgh Cave" good luck with that unless you want to spend 80 hours wandering until you find Ghghslgh Cave. Whereas in Morrowind that would be "Go get my sword from Ghghslgh Cave. To reach Ghghslgh cave, leave Rurhrhaha via the south gate, following the path until it forks. Take the left fork and follow it until you reach Lake Llahslhs. Ghghslgh Cave should be on the other side of the lake."

 

[crufty]

they're optional but the game is designed under the assumption that you'll be using them. "Go get my sword from Ghghslgh Cave" good luck with that unless you want to spend 80 hours wandering until you find Ghghslgh Cave. Whereas in Morrowind that would be "Go get my sword from Ghghslgh Cave. To reach Ghghslgh cave, leave Rurhrhaha via the south gate, following the path until it forks. Take the left fork and follow it until you reach Lake Llahslhs. Ghghslgh Cave should be on the other side of the lake."

*shrug*

most of the game is playable and enjoyable without the compass. the only time i turned it on was to find some sunken object in a river that i would have never found otherwise.

unless, of course, thats too hard....

 

[Zlaja]

Both run fine on Win7 64bit. To make things easy, use DaggerfallSetup, and don't forget the adjustments mentioned on the page.

I used that link to start a new playthrough (on Win7 64bit). My char after an hour:

 

[Broseph]

Daggerfall is a great game. I was pretty far into the main quest with my Redguard warrior and somehow all my saves disappeared. I was pissed. Starting over with a Wood Elf archer now.

 

[Kukulkan]

I'm waiting for DaggerXL to be done to commence my replay of Daggerfall. Is there any word on the creator of XL planning on making certain interesting stats more useful when playing?

 

[Saxon1974]

There

they're optional but the game is designed under the assumption that you'll be using them. "Go get my sword from Ghghslgh Cave" good luck with that unless you want to spend 80 hours wandering until you find Ghghslgh Cave. Whereas in Morrowind that would be "Go get my sword from Ghghslgh Cave. To reach Ghghslgh cave, leave Rurhrhaha via the south gate, following the path until it forks. Take the left fork and follow it until you reach Lake Llahslhs. Ghghslgh Cave should be on the other side of the lake."

*shrug*

most of the game is playable and enjoyable without the compass. the only time i turned it on was to find some sunken object in a river that i would have never found otherwise.

unless, of course, thats too hard....

There is a mod that improves some quest dialog for this purpose, I used it quite a while back or i I would add a link...it helped with this ALOT. Its WAY easier to code and write dialog using a compass then writing dailog to give someone directions so guess since the lazy masses want a quest compass its more easy profits for bethesda!!!

I really like Daggerfall, Morriwind and I even like Skyim.

This being said I like Skyrim once its heavily modded. The non-modded UI is unplayable and the quest compass stuff killed the game for me. So out of the box games I probably like Dafferfall and then Morrowind and then Skyrim.

I even enjoyed Oblivion once heavily modded but I found the Skyrim world more fun to play around in.

Anyone play in Solstheim yet? Any good?

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

I'm waiting for DaggerXL to be done to commence my replay of Daggerfall. Is there any word on the creator of XL planning on making certain interesting stats more useful when playing?

will it ever be done?