Dorateen
Arcane
We waited for Grimoire, we can wait for this.
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The Darkness Below: a retro CRPG in the making - now available on Early Access
- Thread starter vlzvl
- Start date
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- Tags
- dungeon crawler indie retro rpg
Played the most current version which lasted about seven hours and my current thoughts:
Game is schizophrenic, It copies a lot of elements of Might and Magic 6 and puts them into a turn-based version of Eye of The Beholder. Instead of guilds that teach you initial skills you have trainers for every tier (at least, in theory). Skills go up as you use them rather than spending points. They go up even if you don't use them as they seem to go up passively in combat, which is a good thing because if you had try and hit things or cast spells you didn't have, you'd never gain anything. One huge problem I already see with aping MM6's skill system for this game is that so far the entire thing has been completely linear while MM6/7/8 begin semi-linear and open up as you get stronger. So it's no big deal to return to an area and learn the next tier of proficiency in a skill once you're ready. The world of TDB is not open, you cannot traverse the map as you please, most of it is closed off and some areas require coach rides which cost ungodly amounts of money. Fast travel might be a thing in the future, I don't know, but if this is how the game is going to be set up with no way of faster traveling later on then learning skills will be a nightmare.
One other huge difference between M&M and TDB is that some skills require other skills. So if you want to learn long blade you need to be proficient to a certain degree with short blade. If you want to learn plate armor you need to start with leather. This creates a major problem regarding stats. As I mentioned before, non-primary stats for classes either raise very slowly or not at all which means if you're short for learning the basics of learning how to wear leather armor, you can forget all other forms of protection and because skills raise over time that means you're missing out on skillups for all the time you don't have that skill. My paladin only learned short blade late and could never hit anything with them and since long blades require the second tier of proficiency of short blade plus additional stats to learn, he never swung a sword, not that I think the teacher for second level short blades is in yet. I took the paladin because I wanted a second healer, he never learned a single heal spell. Although the two spells he did have turned out to be very handy. An elemental damage booster and a crowd nuke.
Combat makes no sense to me. At the start my paladin was the only character who could hit anything and then later on his club became useless while my cleric could actually hit enemies. He didn't become useful again until he learned unarmed and started punching the shit out of things. Meanwhile my thief could barely hit anything until get got a bow instead of his worthless dagger and short sword. The way it's set up right now you can never engage the enemy on your terms since movement is turn based inside and outside of combat. The IGYG system and forces you to walk into their line of fire since there's no way as far as I know to skip a turn. When combat starts you can't move which means no stepping up and no running away so turns are wasted just punching the air, literally. Enemies automatically attack every turn even if they can't reach you and you're forced to sit through it. This is another reason why combat is unpleasant, you can't accelerate it because you can't move and unless you're armed with ranged weapons or using spells you can't attack from afar. A lot of this is caused by mashing together elements from a real-time DRPG with a turn based one. MM6 is real time with optional turn based for those moments when you get overwhelmed, the thing is that everyone has a ranged weapon. TDB's combat looks like a mixture of WoX and EoB, but you can't actually throw things and the only way to shoot is when you're armed with a bow. If you don't have ranged skill then you're stuck waiting and even if you do there's no guarantee you'll hit anything anyway.
So combat can take a really long time since only one or two people might actually be able to hit something outside of using spells and you have to wait for the enemy to creep up on you. It's slow and boring which is a kiss of death since that's all you do. It's no fun watching most of your party miss constantly and having to cast endless spells and then rest or wait while one party member hits everything. On the upside half the time the enemy missed me as well so the odd calculations must work against them just as much as they do me. The Vancian system is another weird mismash of EoB with M&M though in the end I could rest as much as I pleased since I learned the spell that let me create endless food which is great because inns charge way too much for a room and for rations.
It's a real headscratcher for me, trying to shoehorn all these elements from real-time blobbers into a turn-based system.
Game is schizophrenic, It copies a lot of elements of Might and Magic 6 and puts them into a turn-based version of Eye of The Beholder. Instead of guilds that teach you initial skills you have trainers for every tier (at least, in theory). Skills go up as you use them rather than spending points. They go up even if you don't use them as they seem to go up passively in combat, which is a good thing because if you had try and hit things or cast spells you didn't have, you'd never gain anything. One huge problem I already see with aping MM6's skill system for this game is that so far the entire thing has been completely linear while MM6/7/8 begin semi-linear and open up as you get stronger. So it's no big deal to return to an area and learn the next tier of proficiency in a skill once you're ready. The world of TDB is not open, you cannot traverse the map as you please, most of it is closed off and some areas require coach rides which cost ungodly amounts of money. Fast travel might be a thing in the future, I don't know, but if this is how the game is going to be set up with no way of faster traveling later on then learning skills will be a nightmare.
One other huge difference between M&M and TDB is that some skills require other skills. So if you want to learn long blade you need to be proficient to a certain degree with short blade. If you want to learn plate armor you need to start with leather. This creates a major problem regarding stats. As I mentioned before, non-primary stats for classes either raise very slowly or not at all which means if you're short for learning the basics of learning how to wear leather armor, you can forget all other forms of protection and because skills raise over time that means you're missing out on skillups for all the time you don't have that skill. My paladin only learned short blade late and could never hit anything with them and since long blades require the second tier of proficiency of short blade plus additional stats to learn, he never swung a sword, not that I think the teacher for second level short blades is in yet. I took the paladin because I wanted a second healer, he never learned a single heal spell. Although the two spells he did have turned out to be very handy. An elemental damage booster and a crowd nuke.
Combat makes no sense to me. At the start my paladin was the only character who could hit anything and then later on his club became useless while my cleric could actually hit enemies. He didn't become useful again until he learned unarmed and started punching the shit out of things. Meanwhile my thief could barely hit anything until get got a bow instead of his worthless dagger and short sword. The way it's set up right now you can never engage the enemy on your terms since movement is turn based inside and outside of combat. The IGYG system and forces you to walk into their line of fire since there's no way as far as I know to skip a turn. When combat starts you can't move which means no stepping up and no running away so turns are wasted just punching the air, literally. Enemies automatically attack every turn even if they can't reach you and you're forced to sit through it. This is another reason why combat is unpleasant, you can't accelerate it because you can't move and unless you're armed with ranged weapons or using spells you can't attack from afar. A lot of this is caused by mashing together elements from a real-time DRPG with a turn based one. MM6 is real time with optional turn based for those moments when you get overwhelmed, the thing is that everyone has a ranged weapon. TDB's combat looks like a mixture of WoX and EoB, but you can't actually throw things and the only way to shoot is when you're armed with a bow. If you don't have ranged skill then you're stuck waiting and even if you do there's no guarantee you'll hit anything anyway.
So combat can take a really long time since only one or two people might actually be able to hit something outside of using spells and you have to wait for the enemy to creep up on you. It's slow and boring which is a kiss of death since that's all you do. It's no fun watching most of your party miss constantly and having to cast endless spells and then rest or wait while one party member hits everything. On the upside half the time the enemy missed me as well so the odd calculations must work against them just as much as they do me. The Vancian system is another weird mismash of EoB with M&M though in the end I could rest as much as I pleased since I learned the spell that let me create endless food which is great because inns charge way too much for a room and for rations.
It's a real headscratcher for me, trying to shoehorn all these elements from real-time blobbers into a turn-based system.
Darth Canoli
Arcane
Very interesting analysis and from my experience, it's close enough, except if you roll your fighter and thief right, they'll hit things right of the bat.
At least for the fighter, i can't recall if the thief class was in the alpha builds i played.
About skills requiring other skills, it could be problematic, one quick fix would be either to increase the training speed of tier 2 / 3 skills or to have them start from level 1, 2 or more...
As for the traveling tediousness in order to come back to trainers or even shopping for that matter, i concur, we need some lloyd's beacons here.
And not the M&M X version, the M&M VI version allowing to set multiple (a lot preferably) different positions to return to.
At least for the fighter, i can't recall if the thief class was in the alpha builds i played.
About skills requiring other skills, it could be problematic, one quick fix would be either to increase the training speed of tier 2 / 3 skills or to have them start from level 1, 2 or more...
As for the traveling tediousness in order to come back to trainers or even shopping for that matter, i concur, we need some lloyd's beacons here.
And not the M&M X version, the M&M VI version allowing to set multiple (a lot preferably) different positions to return to.
I don't know how you'd get them right then, the first party was a total flop since no one could hit anything at all except the wizard and the second one only got by on the grace of the paladin at first and then later on by the thief. It's bizarre how the paladin suddenly went from being able to strike enemies to missing every shot until he became a boxer while the thief had to give up short swords and go completely bows and the cleric was the only one who could hit with bludgeons. The wizard never, ever hit anything with melee, it was a total waste of a skill for him. Near as I could observe classes never gain in attributes that aren't flagged which is another problem with learning skills. My paladin didn't even learn armor until late in the game, most of his initial roll went to power which I assume is also why he could punch the evil out of nearly everyone.
Also have to note that most of the spells I learned along the way were useless. Ice spear was the best overall and nothing else ever came close except the occasional fire spark or whatever it was called for cold resistant enemies. Right now there's no point wasting time trying to debuff a monster with no visible effects when everything either hits hard or not at all and create food is so powerful as to be exploitive since I'd never want to use the overpriced inn. But, I assume that these are all growing pains and will get hashed out, at least I hope so.
Darth Canoli
Arcane
From my experience ice spear is really good indeed.
But it depends of the foes you're up against, i recall fire spells being more efficient against plants, for example.
I'm not sure about the debuffs.
But it depends of the foes you're up against, i recall fire spells being more efficient against plants, for example.
I'm not sure about the debuffs.
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