From Software The Dark Souls II Megathread™

[praetor]

#MLGPro

You're right though, all games should be multiplayer, hardest and most interesting enemies all the way.

you misunderstand. i usually don't play multiplayer games (DeS, DkS, and in the future DkS2 and maybe DayZ are more the exception rather than the rule for me), but you cannot deny that the toughest and most interesting "enemies" in the game, on average (i'd ignore twinks and cheaters, if you let me, since they're a rarer occurrence than some make it out to be), are the invaders, especially the creative ones that use the environment and often overlooked weapons in cool ways. the PvE becomes trivially easy once you learn the 3-4 attacks that each enemy has and their placement (i.e. rather soon) so i welcome the added, hopefully more frequent tension that the invaders add, providing a possible roadblock to my goal, giving their best to murder me, unlike the rather predictable AI.

and no, not all games should be multiplayer, but when the multiplayer is as excellently executed as in the Souls series, than it's more than a welcome addition

First off, summons trivializing PvE was a design flaw in DkS, I am expecting it to be fixed in the second part, since From are putting so much emphasis on the multiplayer component. A moot point anyway in my case, because I don't use summons.

Messages and bloodstains are useless most of the time, they're mostly good for the occasional laugh and promoting a sense of camraderie amongst players.

As a matter of fact, your point is an argument in favor of the DkS system, where you'd opt-in to coop and invasions at the same time, which I do believe balanced each other out decently.

than explain to me how the cons heavily outweigh the pros? because "i don't use summons" is not a valid argument (edit: another "pro" i forgot to mention: the tons and tons of souls (and other boons/loot) you get from partaking in the multiplayer aspect)

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

First off, summons trivializing PvE was a design flaw in DkS, I am expecting it to be fixed in the second part, since From are putting so much emphasis on the multiplayer component. A moot point anyway in my case, because I don't use summons.

summons are now temporary and the more enemies they kill the shortet their stay in your world

 

[Cowboy Moment]

#MLGPro

You're right though, all games should be multiplayer, hardest and most interesting enemies all the way.

you misunderstand. i usually don't play multiplayer games (DeS, DkS, and in the future DkS2 and maybe DayZ are more the exception rather than the rule for me), but you cannot deny that the toughest and most interesting "enemies" in the game, on average (i'd ignore twinks and cheaters, if you let me, since they're a rarer occurrence than some make it out to be), are the invaders, especially the creative ones that use the environment and often overlooked weapons in cool ways. the PvE becomes trivially easy once you learn the 3-4 attacks that each enemy has and their placement (i.e. rather soon) so i welcome the added, hopefully more frequent tension that the invaders add, providing a possible roadblock to my goal, giving their best to murder me, unlike the rather predictable AI.

and no, not all games should be multiplayer, but when the multiplayer is as excellently executed as in the Souls series, than it's more than a welcome addition

I kind of suspect this is the case for a good amount of Dark Souls PvPers, a "baby's first competitive multiplayer" of sorts, which is why their elitism over non-PvPers is so awkward, just look at Serious Business above.

Really, I'm not sure why I should be explaining this, but single player challenge is usually different from multi player challenge. I'm pretty good at Starcraft, but I don't find it weird in the least that some people prefer the single player campaign, or even custom games, to proper 1v1 on tournament maps. The AI in single player games typically enjoys significant advantages over the player, which allows it to be challenging in spite of behavioral deficiencies. Enemies in Souls are often more durable and stronger than the player, come in groups, and attack in terrain/architecture which benefits them. But you should know this already, you've played the game. Sure, it gets easier once you see all the content, all single player games do. But I imagine most players don't want to spend 400+ hours on DS2, they're fine with one or two playthroughs.

That said, again, the occasional invasion is fine, it makes the game less predictable. I just don't like the idea of the PvP content overwhelming the PvE, because the latter is what I mostly enjoy Souls for.

First off, summons trivializing PvE was a design flaw in DkS, I am expecting it to be fixed in the second part, since From are putting so much emphasis on the multiplayer component. A moot point anyway in my case, because I don't use summons.

Messages and bloodstains are useless most of the time, they're mostly good for the occasional laugh and promoting a sense of camraderie amongst players.

As a matter of fact, your point is an argument in favor of the DkS system, where you'd opt-in to coop and invasions at the same time, which I do believe balanced each other out decently.

than explain to me how the cons heavily outweigh the pros? because "i don't use summons" is not a valid argument (edit: another "pro" i forgot to mention: the tons and tons of souls (and other boons/loot) you get from partaking in the multiplayer aspect)

For me, they do outweigh the pros, because I don't much cherish the idea of summoning help when I get invaded; I don't like summoning help in general. This exchange began with you accusing me of wanting all the "pros" of online play without any of the "cons". What I'm trying to explain, is that the "pros" I do use - messages and bloodstains - are quite insubstantial compared to the "cons" - unavoidable invasions - in DS2.

Then there are also indirect "cons" in the game's design, like SL1 playthroughs becoming a lot more tedious due to weapon requirements increasing with upgrades, or trying roll speed to agility, which are both unnecessary for a PvE, and apparently necessitated by PvP.

 

[praetor]

apologies for the VD-style quoting in advance

I kind of suspect this is the case for a good amount of Dark Souls PvPers, a "baby's first competitive multiplayer" of sorts, which is why their elitism over non-PvPers is so awkward, just look at Serious Business above.

competitive muliti? in dark souls? you mean the 2-3 "tournaments" a year thrown on some forums that have absolutely no meaning even for the participants other than being a bit different than random duels?

the point of DkS multiplayer is not to be competitive or balanced (in the traditional sense). DkS (and DeS, of course) multi is different because it's not "separated". and i'm not sure why you mock SB, because he does raise valid points and highlights how different the whole thing is (other than insulting you, of course )

Really, I'm not sure why I should be explaining this, but single player challenge is usually different from multi player challenge.

and i'm not really sure why I should be explaining this, but the Souls games don't really have a separate SP/MP challenge, it's all in one package, there are no specific MP-only arenas where you play deathmatches or CTFs or whatever, and their experimentation in the DLC with something like that failed rather miserably, which imo shows the different dynamic of the Souls games

The AI in single player games typically enjoys significant advantages over the player, which allows it to be challenging in spite of behavioral deficiencies. Enemies in Souls are often more durable and stronger than the player, come in groups, and attack in terrain/architecture which benefits them.

the durability rarely comes into play (other than (mini)bosses, of course) since you can usually 2-shot most mobs rather easily, and the more durable ones are extremely slow and predictable, groups can be easily pulled one-by-one, and the terrain advantage is mostly moot after the first time you encounter them (unless you have the memory of a goldfish )

That said, again, the occasional invasion is fine, it makes the game less predictable. I just don't like the idea of the PvP content overwhelming the PvE, because the latter is what I mostly enjoy Souls for.

well, i on the other hand mostly enjoy the mix of PvE with PvP, making it a rather unique experience (not to mention one of the very very few game that does melee combat properly)

For me, they do outweigh the pros, because I don't much cherish the idea of summoning help when I get invaded; I don't like summoning help in general. This exchange began with you accusing me of wanting all the "pros" of online play without any of the "cons". What I'm trying to explain, is that the "pros" I do use - messages and bloodstains - are quite insubstantial compared to the "cons" - unavoidable invasions - in DS2.

i guess i wasn't clear before, but the "you" in my original statement is a "general you" not "you specifically" so yeah, objectively, for the average player, the "pros" outweight the "cons" (not to mention that, as has been repeatedly stated in interviews and previews, there will be ways to avoid being invaded)

Then there are also indirect "cons" in the game's design, like SL1 playthroughs becoming a lot more tedious due to weapon requirements increasing with upgrades, or trying roll speed to agility, which are both unnecessary for a PvE, and apparently necessitated by PvP.

they're already more tedious than normal so whatever. putting artificial restrictions on myself to compensate for the poor AI and make the PvE more interesting is really not my cup of tea, but i wouldn't jump the gun so soon and instantly cry that all the changes i don't like were made with PvP first and foremost in mind (sure they're putting more emphasis on the MP aspect, but from there to saying that "tying roll speed to agility was necessitated by PvP"...)

 

[aris]

Thought Artorias was hard, tried him in NG+ and found out that I was wrong. But seriously, what's up with his charge attack (not the jump attack, the sliding poke attack) after his second charge up? I have a 74 stability shield, and before the second charge up I block it with it burning through approx 80% of my stamina, after the second chargeup, it burn all of my stamina, and cuts of 80% of my health, knocking me off my feet, then he always proceeds to cut me down before I can get my shield up again, making the match an autolose. It's really annoying too, because this has happened to me 5 times now, where I have him down to 10% health.

 

[agentorange]

So he's not hard but you've died 5 times in a row to the same attack?

 

[aris]

I mean, I though he was hard in NG, he's much harder in NG+.

 

[agentorange]

Ohhhhh. Sorry.

From NG+ on I personally don't rely on blocking anything, especially super powered attacks like that, just make use of dodging/rolling.

 

[aris]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHH


I finally beat artorias on NG+! And without iron flesh this time (which is completely useless in every way in NG+). A higher stability shield turned out to be my salvation. +15 eagle shield, I love you long time


I just recently discovered this shield, thought for the longest time that balder shield was the best light weight shield. Boy, was I wrong, a completely upgraded eagle shield completely outclasses it.

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

http://imgur.com/a/ZaLtd

couple promotional shots

Spoiler

old hags, maids, mysterious girls

 

[aris]

http://imgur.com/a/ZaLtd

couple promotional shots

Spoiler

old hags, maids, mysterious girls

A thousand brofists to you Sir! Those NPCs seem awesome!

 

[Sòren]

i don't know. the descriptions of npcs in Dark Souls and Demon Souls were more interesting.

those seem kind of meh.

i don't doubt that the game will be very, very good though.

 

[LivingOne]

new screens.

 

[aris]

Guardian shield looks really good!

 

[Visperas]

Three hags... as in the daughter, the mother and the grandmother? The Dark Souls version of the Fates?

 

[Niektory]

Three hags... as in the daughter, the mother and the grandmother? The Dark Souls version of the Fates?

It says three crones, so not really. They look the same too.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

apologies for the VD-style quoting in advance

VD hasn't invented post-fileting you know. I normally try to avoid it because it leads to annoying fragmentation, Why not simply write a single reply, one paragraph for each paragraph of mine?

competitive muliti? in dark souls? you mean the 2-3 "tournaments" a year thrown on some forums that have absolutely no meaning even for the participants other than being a bit different than random duels?

the point of DkS multiplayer is not to be competitive or balanced (in the traditional sense). DkS (and DeS, of course) multi is different because it's not "separated". and i'm not sure why you mock SB, because he does raise valid points and highlights how different the whole thing is (other than insulting you, of course )

Competitive multiplayer simply means that there's competition, and players care about winning. It has nothing to do with tournaments. DS PvP has a metagame of sorts, a few special techniques that make use of engine/netcode peculiarities, and even its own brand of elitism. All sings of a healthy competitive community.

It's funny how you say the multiplayer cannot be balanced after spending a whole page arguing in favor of invasions being, in fact, balanced. The simple truth of the matter is that if you make multiplayer an important and unavoidable aspect of your game, you need to start worrying about balance on some level. And given the changes From are making to various mechanics in DS2, they understand this very well.

and i'm not really sure why I should be explaining this, but the Souls games don't really have a separate SP/MP challenge, it's all in one package, there are no specific MP-only arenas where you play deathmatches or CTFs or whatever, and their experimentation in the DLC with something like that failed rather miserably, which imo shows the different dynamic of the Souls games

There is separate SP challenge, it is achieved by going offline, and the games play perfectly well this way.

the durability rarely comes into play (other than (mini)bosses, of course) since you can usually 2-shot most mobs rather easily, and the more durable ones are extremely slow and predictable, groups can be easily pulled one-by-one, and the terrain advantage is mostly moot after the first time you encounter them (unless you have the memory of a goldfish )

Huh, that sounds like a pretty easy and boring game right there. One wonders why From don't just release a bunch of PvP arenas instead. Maximum challenge and excitement for the truly discerning player.

they're already more tedious than normal so whatever. putting artificial restrictions on myself to compensate for the poor AI and make the PvE more interesting is really not my cup of tea, but i wouldn't jump the gun so soon and instantly cry that all the changes i don't like were made with PvP first and foremost in mind (sure they're putting more emphasis on the MP aspect, but from there to saying that "tying roll speed to agility was necessitated by PvP"...)

I don't see any other reason to change mechanics that work perfectly well. As a matter of fact, the tension between movement speed, poise and defense is, I think, one of the cornerstones of the entire melee combat system, and them trying to fuck with it sounds worrying to me. I'd be similarly worried if they wanted to have stats increase swing speed, since immutable weapon movesets are another cornerstone.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Will I be able to romance those hags?

 

[praetor]

VD hasn't invented post-fileting you know. I normally try to avoid it because it leads to annoying fragmentation, Why not simply write a single reply, one paragraph for each paragraph of mine?



Competitive multiplayer simply means that there's competition, and players care about winning. It has nothing to do with tournaments. DS PvP has a metagame of sorts, a few special techniques that make use of engine/netcode peculiarities, and even its own brand of elitism. All sings of a healthy competitive community.

It's funny how you say the multiplayer cannot be balanced after spending a whole page arguing in favor of invasions being, in fact, balanced. The simple truth of the matter is that if you make multiplayer an important and unavoidable aspect of your game, you need to start worrying about balance on some level. And given the changes From are making to various mechanics in DS2, they understand this very well.



There is separate SP challenge, it is achieved by going offline, and the games play perfectly well this way.



Huh, that sounds like a pretty easy and boring game right there. One wonders why From don't just release a bunch of PvP arenas instead. Maximum challenge and excitement for the truly discerning player.



I don't see any other reason to change mechanics that work perfectly well. As a matter of fact, the tension between movement speed, poise and defense is, I think, one of the cornerstones of the entire melee combat system, and them trying to fuck with it sounds worrying to me. I'd be similarly worried if they wanted to have stats increase swing speed, since immutable weapon movesets are another cornerstone.

1. but since we're on the codex, and he's (in)famous on the codex for doing it... don't be dense on purpose

2. by that definition every single MP game (that isn't co-op) is "competitive". and i did not argue "in favour of invasions being balanced" (try reading it again), but rather that the invasions will not be in favour of the invader like gouda and you were stupidly arguing without knowing the facts

3. it's also more boring, less interesting/tense/whatever and, for those who care, not the way the developers intended

4. nice strawman. i had respect for you until now, and it's the last reply you'll get from me

5. because while those mechanics are very nice ideas, their implementation was rather poor (particularly poise) and so they don't "work perfectly well". (factoid: they planned for Str to increase swing speed in DkS like Dex increases cast speed)

 

[Cowboy Moment]

 

[DragoFireheart]

I hope some of the old Demon's Souls weapons are brought back in some shape or form.

Meat Clever (Demon's Souls version, not that shit in Dark Souls), Dragonbone Smasher, Blueblood Sword, Scraping Spear, Mirdan Hammer, Hands of God, Lava Bow.

 

[Morgoth]

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

that shadows+lighting+mantle+mirror knight rape

 

[aris]

Strange that they decided to make him immortal during the summoning phase though. Used to be that you could either use the window to beat at him, or to crush the mirror to prevent the summoning.

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

it would be piss easy if he was not invincible during summonig phase