From Software The Dark Souls II Megathread™

[DragoFireheart]

Would be a good start. I kinda mentioned it a few pages back already that I'd like improved AI. Instead of being lazy with HP bloat and cutting corners make the AI actually work and not all act like zombies. Making the environment work more against the player would be pretty cool, too. No area in DaS2 made me feel suffocated like 5-2 or Tomb of the Giants without the Light spell or maggot hat.

I'll agree to disagree.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I don't even know what we are agreeing to disagree on when you aren't providing counter points. All I can see is that you'd rather have design that is simply lazy. Perhaps you are afraid of dealing with AI that's not shit?

 

[DragoFireheart]

I don't even know what we are agreeing to disagree on when you aren't providing counter points. All I can see is that you'd rather have design that is simply lazy. Perhaps you are afraid of dealing with AI that's not shit?

Why should I even bother making counter points when you're going to resort to ad hominem? I'm not going to try and argue with you when you clearly have your own views that you don't want changed. There's no counter point I could make that you'd agree with or one that might change your mind. You have an idea of what you want in your mind and that's that. There's nothing to discuss.

 

[Hobo Elf]

You're the one who started with the ad hominems and then you fucking cry about it when you are the target
anyway, basically you don't even have a point, is your point. From where I'm standing it just seems to me that you are too chicken shit to want to fight something that's legit challenging and would rather engage in simplistic pattern recognition challenges the whole time.

 

[DragoFireheart]

You're the one who started with the ad hominems and then you fucking cry about it when you are the target

Nope, nice try.

anyway, basically you don't even have a point, is your point.

If the AI is too easy then why are you bitching about the enemies being too quick? Are they too hard or too easy? Make up your fucking mind. I don't even understand what point you are making anymore.

EDIT:

From where I'm standing it just seems to me that you are too chicken shit to want to fight something that's legit challenging and would rather engage in simplistic pattern recognition challenges the whole time.

This is also incorrect. But I'm also realistic about the PS3 being able to handle AI. Ideally we have a system with no limitations so we get the best AI, but alas we live in the real world. Do you honestly think the PS3 would be able to handle what you demand when they already cut the lighting system to make the game work? Maybe in DK3 we'll get your wish (hopefully).

EDIT: and if you find the AI that horrible there exists other players to challenge you. I doubt there will ever be an AI system that can match PvP combat. Not to use this as an excuse btw.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Nope, nice try.

Git gud is a petty passive-aggressive attack on the character devised by the newfags who found (jumped on the bandwagon) Souls with the Prepare to Die Edition

If the AI is too easy then why are you bitching about the enemies being too quick? Are they too hard or too easy? Make up your fucking mind. I don't even understand what point you are making anymore.

I said it was a lazy way to try and make it harder. I didn't say it was harder, because I don't think they succeeded. It's just something that stuck out to me like a sore thumb after playing the game and understanding the new mechanics and changes they did and why they were done.

This is also incorrect. But I'm also realistic about the PS3 being able to handle AI. Ideally we have a system with no limitations so we get the best AI, but alas we live in the real world. Do you honestly think the PS3 would be able to handle what you demand when they already cut the lighting system to make the game work? Maybe in DK3 we'll get your wish (hopefully).

Seriously, man. All you need to do is play Verdict Day, also made by FROM. That game will blow your mind with what the AI is capable of. A finely tuned AI bot will shred even the best players.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Git gud is a petty passive-aggressive attack on the character devised by the newfags who found (jumped on the bandwagon) Souls with the Prepare to Die Edition

wut r u, casul?

I said it was a lazy way to try and make it harder. I didn't say it was harder, because I don't think they succeeded. It's just something that stuck out to me like a sore thumb after playing the game and understanding the new mechanics and changes they did and why they were done.

Seriously, man. All you need to do is play Verdict Day, also made by FROM. That game will blow your mind with what the AI is capable of. A finely tuned AI bot will shred even the best players.

Ok, do you have evidence that From was just being lazy with the AI?

 

[UndetectedButthurt]

Hey guise those black phantom mind flayers from 3-3 will rape any DS2 enemy up the asshole any day. Just sayin' (mainly because I just died a bunch of times in a row).

 

[DragoFireheart]

Hey guise those black phantom mind flayers from 3-3 will rape any DS2 enemy up the asshole any day. Just sayin' (mainly because I just died a bunch of times in a row).

I bet Royal Sorcerer Navlaan could give them a run for their money.

 

[80Maxwell08]

If we are talking about other souls games here I'll say I think 5-2 in DeS was probably the worst level in the whole series because it's challenge came entirely from limiting your movement to a pathetic crawl. I was using a melee character there and it was absolute hell because I couldn't dodge for almost the entire map because of that swamp (also I'm amazed I managed that optional encounter with those giant enemies there). I bet it would have been a huge joke if I used a magic user there or had a bow but limiting the player's movement (and only the player's movement) is just cheap to me. There wasn't any new strategy I had to use I just held my shield up or if a giant was there I probably died. Just crippling the player's movement in an action game is cheap to me.

 

[Kanedias]

Those BP mind flayers aren't well designed enemies, they get infinite poise every time they're going to cast a spell, but otherwise you can just mash r1 and kill them. They become trivial when you realize you can hug the wall and their paralysis spell (the one they always open with) will hit the wall and they'll come running to you, mash r1 and they die. Normally they are only hard because of the place you fight them in, which is cheap as hell (especially the one on those narrow stairs leading to Maneaters)

Mind Flayers in general are good enemies because of their design, plus the gimmick is fun, but let's not overvalue them either.

 

[DragoFireheart]

If we are talking about other souls games here I'll say I think 5-2 in DeS was probably the worst level in the whole series because it's challenge came entirely from limiting your movement to a pathetic crawl. I was using a melee character there and it was absolute hell because I couldn't dodge for almost the entire map because of that swamp (also I'm amazed I managed that optional encounter with those giant enemies there). I bet it would have been a huge joke if I used a magic user there or had a bow but limiting the player's movement (and only the player's movement) is just cheap to me. There wasn't any new strategy I had to use I just held my shield up or if a giant was there I probably died. Just crippling the player's movement in an action game is cheap to me.

And then you realize you can bypass 2/3 of the level by wearing regen gear, Thief Ring, and jsut avoiding every enemy ala walking in the swamp. 5-2 was awful design.

 

[Kanedias]

As for AI in this game, it's all over the place, some enemies have amazing AI while others are extremely dumb.

The worst enemies in this regard are probably those mummies from the Lost Bastille, their AI is all kinds of borked, sometimes they don't even aim their melee attacks well and they miss on their own. The best AI enemies are probably the dragon knights from the shrine, they have a variety of moves and they actively roll your attacks and punish you. The Belfry Gargoyles have a pretty good group AI too, sometimes they'll fly behind you and attack, trying to surround you, while others will try to support the group with flame attacks.

 

[DragoFireheart]

As for AI in this game, it's all over the place, some enemies have amazing AI while others are extremely dumb.

The worst enemies in this regard are probably those mummies from the Lost Bastille, their AI is all kinds of borked, sometimes they don't even aim their melee attacks well and they miss on their own. The best AI enemies are probably the dragon knights from the shrine, they have a variety of moves and they actively roll your attacks and punish you. The Belfry Gargoyles have a pretty good group AI too, sometimes they'll fly behind you and attack, trying to surround you, while others will try to support the group with flame attacks.

This leads me to believe that they purposefully made some enemies smart while others dumb. Another example is Royal Rat Vanguard: they always seem to know when to attack you and will quickly charge if they see you healing.

Makes sense. I wouldn't expect a regular Hollow to be intelligent.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Git gud is a petty passive-aggressive attack on the character devised by the newfags who found (jumped on the bandwagon) Souls with the Prepare to Die Edition

wut r u, casul?

I said it was a lazy way to try and make it harder. I didn't say it was harder, because I don't think they succeeded. It's just something that stuck out to me like a sore thumb after playing the game and understanding the new mechanics and changes they did and why they were done.

Seriously, man. All you need to do is play Verdict Day, also made by FROM. That game will blow your mind with what the AI is capable of. A finely tuned AI bot will shred even the best players.

Ok, do you have evidence that From was just being lazy with the AI?

My only evidence is that it has not changed all that much since Demon's Souls. Attack patterns have been improved, enemy stat values have been made greater, some of them are more fierce with their blocking so you can't just snipe them all from afar, but deep down they still have the same predictable behaviorism that you can exploit. One of the bigger problems imo with the AI is that it isn't dynamic. I mean we all know that one way FROM has tried to make the game harder for us is with monster spam, right? But in many situations you can make the monsters work against each other. They'll try to run through each other in a dumb manner if you use choke points, or if you go close up to one enemy to trigger their attack move set (which they will play out completely disregarding distance between you and the enemy) and while they are locked on to their animation you can go and pick off one of the enemies.
Monster spam should be a threat if they'd know how to work together, but they don't, so the same tactics mostly apply to them as they would to singular targets, except you need to kite them a bit longer to pick them off one by one unless you have a huge sword in which case you can just kill them all at the same time.

As for AI in this game, it's all over the place, some enemies have amazing AI while others are extremely dumb.

The worst enemies in this regard are probably those mummies from the Lost Bastille, their AI is all kinds of borked, sometimes they don't even aim their melee attacks well and they miss on their own. The best AI enemies are probably the dragon knights from the shrine, they have a variety of moves and they actively roll your attacks and punish you. The Belfry Gargoyles have a pretty good group AI too, sometimes they'll fly behind you and attack, trying to surround you, while others will try to support the group with flame attacks.

This leads me to believe that they purposefully made some enemies smart while others dumb. Another example is Royal Rat Vanguard: they always seem to know when to attack you and will quickly charge if they see you healing.

Makes sense. I wouldn't expect a regular Hollow to be intelligent.

Actually that's one of the changes they did to the AI. They made it so that enemies would rush at you if you'd try to heal. It doesn't really help them that much once you realize this since it's very exploitable as well. You can just wait for the enemy to be locked in in a animation and use that opportunity to heal.

 

[DragoFireheart]

My only evidence is that it has not changed all that much since Demon's Souls. Attack patterns have been improved, enemy stat values have been made greater, some of them are more fierce with their blocking so you can't just snipe them all from afar, but deep down they still have the same predictable behaviorism that you can exploit. One of the bigger problems imo with the AI is that it isn't dynamic. I mean we all know that one way FROM has tried to make the game harder for us is with monster spam, right? But in many situations you can make the monsters work against each other. They'll try to run through each other in a dumb manner if you use choke points, or if you go close up to one enemy to trigger their attack move set (which they will play out completely disregarding distance between you and the enemy) and while they are locked on to their animation you can go and pick off one of the enemies.
Monster spam should be a threat if they'd know how to work together, but they don't, so the same tactics mostly apply to them as they would to singular targets, except you need to kite them a bit longer to pick them off one by one unless you have a huge sword in which case you can just kill them all at the same time.

Actually that's one of the changes they did to the AI. They made it so that enemies would rush at you if you'd try to heal. It doesn't really help them that much once you realize this since it's very exploitable as well. You can just wait for the enemy to be locked in in a animation and use that opportunity to heal.

So what you're actually saying is they did improve the AI but you got gud and overcame it?

Yeah there's no pleasing you.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Attack patterns / animations and statistical changes have nothing to do with AI. Good AI would be able to quit their combo mid animation to react to your distance or to what you are doing. It would also know how to circle around the other enemies instead of trying to whack at you from behind them where they can't even hit you. Unless they'd have a spear, then that would be interesting, but there is no enemy or situation like that. Putting certain enemies on permanent block mode isn't improving the AI either, since they aren't reacting to anything that's happening to them. It's just something preordained by FROM so you can't go completely ez mode with range combat like in Demon's Souls.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Attack patterns / animations and statistical changes have nothing to do with AI. Good AI would be able to quit their combo mid animation to react to your distance or to what you are doing.

Careless players can get locked into animations. Why shouldn't the enemies as well?

It would also know how to circle around the other enemies instead of trying to whack at you from behind them where they can't even hit you.

Did you not read the examples me and Kanedias posted?

Unless they'd have a spear, then that would be interesting, but there is no enemy or situation like that. Putting certain enemies on permanent block mode isn't improving the AI either, since they aren't reacting to anything that's happening to them. It's just something preordained by FROM so you can't go completely ez mode with range combat like in Demon's Souls.

So because From doesn't implement every possible idea you could come up with, the AI as a whole is bad?

 

[praetor]

If we are talking about other souls games here I'll say I think 5-2 in DeS was probably the worst level in the whole series because it's challenge came entirely from limiting your movement to a pathetic crawl. I was using a melee character there and it was absolute hell because I couldn't dodge for almost the entire map because of that swamp (also I'm amazed I managed that optional encounter with those giant enemies there). I bet it would have been a huge joke if I used a magic user there or had a bow but limiting the player's movement (and only the player's movement) is just cheap to me. There wasn't any new strategy I had to use I just held my shield up or if a giant was there I probably died. Just crippling the player's movement in an action game is cheap to me.

yup. another reason why Shrine of Amanda is crap (from a gameplay perspective. it's almost the same like 5-2, except with more annoying enemies. but excellent atmosphere), and why i'm not convinced Adaptability/Agility is a good idea

and the only enemies in DaS2 that could be considered "improved AI" are the 3 small dragon knights that have a slightly improved "humanoid black phantom" AI who knows how to do some basic stuff. everything else is either the same or worse

and yeah, they could've definitely gone more creative with environments/traps. nothing comes even close to Sen's, and even that is child's play compared to something like the secret traps in Blade of Darkness (wish they'd taken some cues from that game, along with Berserk demon design as Hobo mentioned)

 

[DragoFireheart]

yup. another reason why Shrine of Amanda is crap (from a gameplay perspective. it's almost the same like 5-2, except with more annoying enemies.

Shrine of Amanda asks if you have a bow and are competent enough to snipe.

Yes: Ok you pass the gimmick.

No: TROLL SOULS DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

 

[praetor]

i'll have to respond to you the same way Hobo did: no, i totally did not pick up basic skills in hundreds of fucking hours of playing the 2 previous games. i totally did not buy hundreds of arrows as soon as i saw a huge, open area. it's badly designed, on par with crap like 5-2 or even Izalith. boring, lazy, mechanically full of derp

 

[DragoFireheart]

i'll have to respond to you the same way Hobo did: no, i totally did not pick up basic skills in hundreds of fucking hours of playing the 2 previous games. i totally did not buy hundreds of arrows as soon as i saw a huge, open area. it's badly designed, on par with crap like 5-2 or even Izalith. boring, lazy, mechanically full of derp

Why are you responding to me like how Hobo did? I was agreeing with your assessment of Shrine of Amanda. Much like 5-2 and Lost Izalith (seeing a trend here), it's a shit designed area with a gimmick.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Careless players can get locked into animations. Why shouldn't the enemies as well?

Because like said careless players it makes them exploitable and predictable. I want reactivity, man. I want fights to give me an adrenaline rush, not become some formulaic scenario that you can easily calculate after a few times and you can play the whole drama out the exact same way you want each time like a puppet master.

So because From doesn't implement every possible idea you could come up with, the AI as a whole is bad?

My ideal game would have monsters that are able to react more to the player as well as work together. The spear thing was just me musing as I was fantasizing about a scenario where the player would be faced off against a phalanx formation. The AI isn't bad because of my fantasy scenarios, it's bad because when we get down to the core of it, all it knows is to blindly charge you like a headless chicken.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Because like said careless players it makes them exploitable and predictable.

But players are also exploitable and predictable. I mean, look at the CoD series!

My ideal game would have monsters that are able to react more to the player as well as work together. The spear thing was just me musing as I was fantasizing about a scenario where the player would be faced off against a phalanx formation. The AI isn't bad because of my fantasy scenarios, it's bad because when we get down to the core of it, all it knows is to blindly charge you like a headless chicken.

But not all the enemies charge mindlessly. It wouldn't make sense for Hollows to do anything intelligent. If you want more enemies that are intelligent that is fine, but expecting Hollows to have the AI processing power that rivals seasoned PvP players seems unrealistic.

 

[80Maxwell08]

i'll have to respond to you the same way Hobo did: no, i totally did not pick up basic skills in hundreds of fucking hours of playing the 2 previous games. i totally did not buy hundreds of arrows as soon as i saw a huge, open area. it's badly designed, on par with crap like 5-2 or even Izalith. boring, lazy, mechanically full of derp

Why are you responding to me like how Hobo did? I was agreeing with your assessment of Shrine of Amanda. Much like 5-2 and Lost Izalith (seeing a trend here), it's a shit designed area with a gimmick.

Honestly I wasn't sure of your tone either so I guess me and praetor both made the same mistake.

Also do magic arrows normally home in on people when you cast them? I've never noticed since most of the time I wait for the enemy to be locked in an animation and most people either didn't dodge (possibly because lag) or dodged at exactly the right moment for me to not have noticed.