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The current state of CRPGs is a failure of the free market
- Thread starter TalesfromtheCrypt
- Start date
Hory
Erudite
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2003
- Messages
- 3,002
Was nice for the first hour, after that there's nothing new.Callaxes said:
Yeah, let's just copy a 7 years old game and pretend it's different.
Same as above. What are the radical improvements of Civilization 4? How about something new, man... or at least Colonization 2.
Yeah, we get one good (by today's standards) adventure game per year, if we're lucky. The same for RPGs.
This game started nicely but after 1 1/2 hours of doing the exactly same thing (walking from one NPC to another), I found it disappointing.
This one has some interesting innovations, but adventure-wise is retardedly simple, and so are the action scenes.
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2005
- Messages
- 4,640
Callaxes said:
Are you kidding me? These games are to strategy genre exactly what NWN 2 and all the other crap today is to the RPG genre.
ricolikesrice
Arcane
- Joined
- May 11, 2007
- Messages
- 1,231
i dont really believe the most profit can only be reached by making games like oblivion.
Graphics:
WoW and Starcraft are living proof that a next gen graphic engine isnt necessary to sell a game. Both graphic ENGINES were already outdated by other games upon release, yet it was the artwork of blizzard that made the games look great, even with a not-so-next-gen engine.
hell, WOWs landscape looks a 100times more interesting then the landscape of oblivion despite the later having a much better engine. its the details and creativity that create great worlds, not speedtree and soil erosion.
making next-gen graphics actually only hurts you, they cost more money, the bring less money since a lot of people might not buy the game because they can barely play them.
i can understand why Shooters always need the best possible graphic but RPGs or strategy games there is more than enough proof how there gameplay is valued over graphics and how "older graphics" can have their own charm if well used - even by the mass market.
heck i m pretty sure a cRPG in "up-to-date" 2d graphics (i.e. drawn backgrounds in high resolutions) could still be a big seller as long as other unimportant parts such as gameplay are good ^^
Difficulty:
A lot of people that fondly remember fallout or even older games like wizardy, ultima etc were 10-15 years old at the time they played them. i certainly was. and english isnt my native language yet i played stuff like wizardy at an age of 10years and had a blast and a challenge.
Is the new generation of 10-15 year olds that much dumber ?
The main audience of games is still men/boys and men/boys are all about comparing each other and beating challenges. I dont think bethesda and friends are doing the world a favour by making games for pussies.
besides that, publishing walkthroughs seems to become more and more popular and easily gets the devs even more money, so arent they hurting themselves when they make their games do dumb that even the biggest retard doesnt need a walkthrough ?
difficult games = people who wanna be challenged are happy, people who are mentally challenged buy walkthroughs. seems an easy solution for more $$$$ and a perfectly fine to me.
the best way to sell a game to the mass market is hype, and hype works with anything.
Heck i m pretty sure if Bethesda would decide to make their next game 2d a la IE engine, every magazine left and right would be raving "FINALLY back to the roots! Bethesda is leading the whole industry again", if they decide for next gen "Woot, even better graphics then oblivion, bethesda does it again".
the "professional" gamereviewers have no spine, its easy to manipulate them i d bet. i mean seriously just read the goddamn reviews , a feature that is EXACTLY the same way in WoW as in MMORPG XYZ is at one time (wow review) called reinventing the wheel and another time (mmorpg xyz) called "same old crap". same person reviewing, roughly same time span .
There is no need for Bioware and Bethesda to cater to idiots, they follow them anyways regardless what they do, so maximizing profit would now be catering to the playerbase with a 3-digit IQ as well. Simple sell more walkthroughs to the idiots and get even more money.
in the last weeks i read a lot of columns where those spineless fucks rating oblivion rpg of the year and 9/10 cried loudly for more RPG - less hack n slash ..... maybe just maybe there is a glimmer of hope in the cRPG world.
Graphics:
WoW and Starcraft are living proof that a next gen graphic engine isnt necessary to sell a game. Both graphic ENGINES were already outdated by other games upon release, yet it was the artwork of blizzard that made the games look great, even with a not-so-next-gen engine.
hell, WOWs landscape looks a 100times more interesting then the landscape of oblivion despite the later having a much better engine. its the details and creativity that create great worlds, not speedtree and soil erosion.
making next-gen graphics actually only hurts you, they cost more money, the bring less money since a lot of people might not buy the game because they can barely play them.
i can understand why Shooters always need the best possible graphic but RPGs or strategy games there is more than enough proof how there gameplay is valued over graphics and how "older graphics" can have their own charm if well used - even by the mass market.
heck i m pretty sure a cRPG in "up-to-date" 2d graphics (i.e. drawn backgrounds in high resolutions) could still be a big seller as long as other unimportant parts such as gameplay are good ^^
Difficulty:
A lot of people that fondly remember fallout or even older games like wizardy, ultima etc were 10-15 years old at the time they played them. i certainly was. and english isnt my native language yet i played stuff like wizardy at an age of 10years and had a blast and a challenge.
Is the new generation of 10-15 year olds that much dumber ?
The main audience of games is still men/boys and men/boys are all about comparing each other and beating challenges. I dont think bethesda and friends are doing the world a favour by making games for pussies.
besides that, publishing walkthroughs seems to become more and more popular and easily gets the devs even more money, so arent they hurting themselves when they make their games do dumb that even the biggest retard doesnt need a walkthrough ?
difficult games = people who wanna be challenged are happy, people who are mentally challenged buy walkthroughs. seems an easy solution for more $$$$ and a perfectly fine to me.
the best way to sell a game to the mass market is hype, and hype works with anything.
Heck i m pretty sure if Bethesda would decide to make their next game 2d a la IE engine, every magazine left and right would be raving "FINALLY back to the roots! Bethesda is leading the whole industry again", if they decide for next gen "Woot, even better graphics then oblivion, bethesda does it again".
the "professional" gamereviewers have no spine, its easy to manipulate them i d bet. i mean seriously just read the goddamn reviews , a feature that is EXACTLY the same way in WoW as in MMORPG XYZ is at one time (wow review) called reinventing the wheel and another time (mmorpg xyz) called "same old crap". same person reviewing, roughly same time span .
There is no need for Bioware and Bethesda to cater to idiots, they follow them anyways regardless what they do, so maximizing profit would now be catering to the playerbase with a 3-digit IQ as well. Simple sell more walkthroughs to the idiots and get even more money.
in the last weeks i read a lot of columns where those spineless fucks rating oblivion rpg of the year and 9/10 cried loudly for more RPG - less hack n slash ..... maybe just maybe there is a glimmer of hope in the cRPG world.
Imbecile
Arbiter
So, the free market works reasonably well for all other genres, but fails when it comes to RPG's?
D'you think that theres something specific about RPG's that prompts this?
Maybe you think its like Healthcare or Education, where the government needs to take an active role in subsiding and supporting it for the good of society. Basically its a Merit Good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merit_good
D'you think that there is a deliberate agenda in operation that causes the free market to fail RPGs?
Or do you just think that you're spouting paranoid, egocentric bollocks?
If RPGs are shit, its because the majority of people like those RPGs. Games cost more these days, and companies are willing to take less risks, leaving minorities out in the cold.
The free market might be failing you (and the Codex), but they aren't failing RPG's
D'you think that theres something specific about RPG's that prompts this?
Maybe you think its like Healthcare or Education, where the government needs to take an active role in subsiding and supporting it for the good of society. Basically its a Merit Good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merit_good
D'you think that there is a deliberate agenda in operation that causes the free market to fail RPGs?
Or do you just think that you're spouting paranoid, egocentric bollocks?
If RPGs are shit, its because the majority of people like those RPGs. Games cost more these days, and companies are willing to take less risks, leaving minorities out in the cold.
The free market might be failing you (and the Codex), but they aren't failing RPG's
Callaxes
Arbiter
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2007
- Messages
- 1,676
Hory said:
Who the fuck said it was different? It has the same recipe that made it's prequels good, CRPGs these days don't even try to copy anything except BG or Diablo
How many good CRPGs did we get this milenium?
Arcanum
Bloodlines
BG2
Wizardry 8
that's about it, alot less then adventure games mind you
blah blah blah
CoH is a simplified Close Combat clone. Medieval 2 is Medieval with weaker AI.
So they are overrated, big fucking deal! They're still fun to play.
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2005
- Messages
- 4,640
Callaxes said:
blah blah blah
And Oblivion is just a simplified (AKA dumbed down) version of Daggerfall.
What was your point again?
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2005
- Messages
- 4,640
Callaxes said:
So? For me CoH singleplayer campaign wasn't fun.
Auto-winning, unlosable, ridiciously easy missions without any tactical challenge isn't what I'd call fun, and its not what I think of when O hear the name close combat.
aries202
Erudite
In a free market economy, the money tends to wander where the most profit is to be gained from the least possible workload. If you make a game that sell millions and millions of units, then publisher will be pressing for others to make similar games.
There is a reson why suddenly we have two films about house swapping (renting a leasing?) between the US and the UK. (the reason being that the first one was a hit).
However, when people have seen enough of the sae thing, they want to see something 'new'. And that 'new' thing can easily be something very old, like a very downplayed game with somewhat mediocre graphics, but outstanding gameplay with choice & consequences for each choice.
The public opinion ic very fickle...and can change over night...
There is a reson why suddenly we have two films about house swapping (renting a leasing?) between the US and the UK. (the reason being that the first one was a hit).
However, when people have seen enough of the sae thing, they want to see something 'new'. And that 'new' thing can easily be something very old, like a very downplayed game with somewhat mediocre graphics, but outstanding gameplay with choice & consequences for each choice.
The public opinion ic very fickle...and can change over night...
kingcomrade
Kingcomrade
Anything else that I've addressed you would like me to repeat?kingcomrade said:
spacemoose
Erudite
nevermind that those two statements don't form a causal relationship. what I want to ask you is - what's your favorite flavor of shit, being as you are the most experienced cacophage on these forums?
Joe Krow
Erudite
To say that there's some pent up demand for deep rpgs is one thing. I'll go that far with you. It's not a large niche but it is certainly an under-supplied one. You loose me, however, when you suggest that demand for this type of rpg could equal or exceed the demand for games like Oblivion. 99.99% of the game buying public is content with superficial shit. Where does that leave you? Whining. Don't blame the market. Look around.
kingcomrade
Kingcomrade
What about them, and what do they have to do with free markets? One of the primary principles of a free market is that businesses which can't compete fail, which reinforces my point, not yours. I've already mentioned that the people who make games we like have gone out of business twice now. It's not a difficult concept to master.
Nobody said the free market was just
At least you tried, spacemoose.
obediah
Erudite
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2005
- Messages
- 5,051
elander_ said:
Well if you want space at Wal-Mart or a mall chain, you need to play their game, on their scale, and target their audiences.
It would be nice if there were enough indie developers putting out $20 rpg/strategy/simulations too keep a distributor busy shipping to gaming stores and the like.
Ladonna
Arcane
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2006
- Messages
- 11,321
The missing piece of the pie, often overlooked.
Without having shelf space like this, then it needs to be online sales. Something that doesn't reach the same amounts (yet) as a gaming store, etc. So its actually two sets of markets that drive the reason lower budget games do not see the light as much.
Jim Kata
Arbiter
Ladonna said:
The last one is awesome. Awesome, I say! Especially hitler's penis pic.
@OP - no, it just shows that RPGs are an easily replaceable luxury item and not a necessity. Economics is not geared towards makign people happy, but towards efficiently making people able to make a living.
So, it''s the same reason we have shit music, shit food in grocery stores, etc. - While people with a brain want food with no crazy chemicals or artificial crap most people don't know the difference and when push comes to shove the rest are only going to go so far to make sure they eat sanely....
doctor_kaz
Scholar
I think that it's less of a failure of the free market and more the result of a few shitty companies like Interplay, Microsoft, and Atari making dumb and/or shitty decisions.
Interplay killed of the Fallout franchises and signed Black Isle's death warrant by funding shitty console games.
Microsoft did their part by producing the X-Box and then enticing developers like Bioware to make games for it, a decision which has not even come close to paying off for Microsoft yet.
Atari has done their best to kill RPG's by making little or nothing besides shitty spinoffs like D&D Online and Demon Stone. And then they forced an unfinished NWN2 out the door because they are on the verge of bankruptcy. I think that the sorry state of PC RPG's right now is very largely due to the fact that the best RPG license is owned by a bunch of worthless fucktard inept idiots. Atari is the shittiest publisher in the business. They are far worse than the usual targets of nerdhate like EA or THQ.
None of these companies have acheived greater financial success by abandoning PC RPG's like Fallout and Baldurs Gate. It has been a money-losing decision.
Interplay killed of the Fallout franchises and signed Black Isle's death warrant by funding shitty console games.
Microsoft did their part by producing the X-Box and then enticing developers like Bioware to make games for it, a decision which has not even come close to paying off for Microsoft yet.
Atari has done their best to kill RPG's by making little or nothing besides shitty spinoffs like D&D Online and Demon Stone. And then they forced an unfinished NWN2 out the door because they are on the verge of bankruptcy. I think that the sorry state of PC RPG's right now is very largely due to the fact that the best RPG license is owned by a bunch of worthless fucktard inept idiots. Atari is the shittiest publisher in the business. They are far worse than the usual targets of nerdhate like EA or THQ.
None of these companies have acheived greater financial success by abandoning PC RPG's like Fallout and Baldurs Gate. It has been a money-losing decision.
Jim Kata
Arbiter
What's even bad about EA aside from mediocrity?
Blahblah Talks
Arbiter
Yeah, that Pavoratti is a vacuous twit.The Walkin' Dude said:
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