Pathfinder The Creator of Pathfinder did a let's play of Kingmaker.

[Pink Eye]

It's pretty awesome seeing the creator of Pathfinder play the game and share commentary. I thought some pathfinder fans might enjoy this. I know I did!


He never finished it though.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Deep down, you know exactly what it says about the game, you just don't want to admit it to yourself, he couldn't get farther than 23 hours in.

I'd probably have stopped playing way earlier if someone else butchered my system, i can give him that, the guy has some endurance.

 

[Pink Eye]

You know exactly what it says about the game, you just don't want to admit it to yourself, he couldn't get farther than 23 hours in.

I'd probably have stopped playing way earlier if someone else butchered my system, i can give him that, the guy has some endurance.

Hey, thanks for bumping the thread! You're a good pal.

 

[NJClaw]

Int 12? Wis 12? Cha 14 and Dex 9? On a Paladin?

The only three legal ways to play a melee Paladin in Kingmaker are:
- aasimar with 18/14/14/7/9/18;
- motherless tiefling with 18/14/14/5/9/17;
- halfling because small paladins are funny.

Everything else should be punished by death.

 

[Desiderius]

Int 12? Wis 12? Cha 14 and Dex 9? On a Paladin?

The only three legal ways to play a melee Paladin in Kingmaker are:
- aasimar with 18/14/14/7/9/18;
- motherless tiefling with 18/14/14/5/9/17;
- halfling because small paladins are funny.

Everything else should be punished by death.

I didn't think anyone could get more retarded than the all classes need Vivi-splashes tards, then along came the Motherless Tiefling tards.

No class needs the best race of all - Human - more than Pal and none need Motherless less.

(1) Pal is most feat-starved class, Human gets extra feat

(2) Only viable Pal is MC, and it's prudent to make sure your MC has some skillz, which you get more of with Human. Pal is especially suited for Use Magic Device given high CHR and narrow spell choices.

(3) Main benefit of Motherless, secondary Bite, is less useful for Pal than any other class because:

(a) Pal primary strength is min/lvl Divine Weapon Bond, which doesn't affect Bite

(b) Pal wants to fight Enlarged at minimum, preferably with Reach, which Bite totally fucks up

(c) Pal is slowest class, as Heavy Armor with no Armor Training or native way to get speed (other than Effortless Armor, which is highly recommended but which just gets you back to normal), so you'll either be Charging a lot (with no Pounce, so no Bite) or burning turns moving 20 ft at a time.

(d) To sum up, Pal wants to be big Two-Handed Bopper, doesn't need a piddly Bite tacked on. Most targets should die to your big Two-Handed blows before Bite kicks in anyway.

(4) No class needs Motherless Wisdom boost less since you get CHR to saves, including Will. And INT penalty hurts for MC.

Aasimar sucks less for RP reasons, but is still inferior to Human.

 

[NJClaw]

Int 12? Wis 12? Cha 14 and Dex 9? On a Paladin?

The only three legal ways to play a melee Paladin in Kingmaker are:
- aasimar with 18/14/14/7/9/18;
- motherless tiefling with 18/14/14/5/9/17;
- halfling because small paladins are funny.

Everything else should be punished by death.

I didn't think anyone could get more retarded than the all classes need Vivi-splashes tards, then along came the Motherless Tiefling tards.

No class needs the best race of all - Human - more than Pal and none need Motherless less.

(1) Pal is most feat-starved class, Human gets extra feat

(2) Only viable Pal is MC, and it's prudent to make sure your MC has some skillz, which you get more of with Human. Pal is especially suited for Use Magic Device given high CHR and narrow spell choices.

(3) Main benefit of Motherless, secondary Bite, is less useful for Pal than any other class because:

(a) Pal primary strength is min/lvl Divine Weapon Bond, which doesn't affect Bite

(b) Pal wants to fight Enlarged at minimum, preferably with Reach, which Bite totally fucks up

(c) Pal is slowest class, as Heavy Armor with no Armor Training or native way to get speed (other than Effortless Armor, which is highly recommended but which just gets you back to normal), so you'll either be Charging a lot (with no Pounce, so no Bite) or burning turns moving 20 ft at a time.

(d) To sum up, Pal wants to be big Two-Handed Bopper, doesn't need a piddly Bite tacked on. Most targets should die to your big Two-Handed blows before Bite kicks in anyway.

(4) No class needs Motherless Wisdom boost less since you get CHR to saves, including Will. And INT penalty hurts for MC.

Aasimar sucks less for RP reasons, but is still inferior to Human.

Man, it was a joke, no need to get this serious. But if you want to seriously talk about it, you are getting a serious answer.

As you have proven countless times, you are certainly very knowledgeable about the game, but sometimes you bring some useless facts as proofs for your arguments and you ignore some very important details that work against what you are trying to prove.

1) Pal is feat starved, right, but it's also one of the classes that suffers the most from MAD (in Pathfinder less than in 3.5, but it's still something to take into consideration). With Human you get your precious feat, with Aasimar you get a boost to another of your main abilities and access to Wings feat. A simple +1 to Cha means, in the right circumstances (Aura of Justice), +2 to your AC, +2 to your saves, +1 to your companions' AC and +1 to hit to the entire party. You need a lot of feats, but when I am not going for something particular (two weapon fighting/archery), usually I am satisfied with something like: (1) Weapon Focus, (3) Dazzling Display, (5) Outflank, (7) Shatter Defenses, (Monk 1) Crane Style, (Monk 2) Dodge, (9) Crane Wing, (11) Wings, (13) Crane Riposte, (15) Combat Reflexes, (17) Blind Fight. Obviously you can get everything online two levels before with Human, but big surprise, Human is the best race since 2000, you are discovering nothing new.

2) Only viable Pal is MC and I agree, but the "your MC needs some skills" is a pretty weak argument. You can live with 3 ranks in Mobility and everything else dumped into Persuasion. The game has such a restricted set of skills that your companions can cover for everything without problems. Sure, it's nice to have more Perception/Trickery, but another Use Magic Devices isn't gonna change my game.

3) The secondary bite is not "less useful for Pal than any other class", because you get your Smite bonus to every attack and an additional attack with +7 to hit/+lvl to damage isn't useless. I agree on the reach stuff, but that's something you have to accept if you want to play with a sub-optimal particular build. The "slowest class" makes no sense to me, because whenever I play a melee Paladin I try to get 2 Monk levels as soon as possible, because it helps a lot with almost everything (AC, Saves and feats).

4) Who cares for the Wisdom boost? That's not the point.

Congratulations, you discovered that Human is the strongest race. We knew it since 2000.

 

[NJClaw]

Also, for someone who thinks that "min-maxxing lessens fun by dampening variety and replayability", you surely are going out of your way to demonstrate why humans are better than other races for a Paladin.

 

[Desiderius]

Also, for someone who thinks that "min-maxxing lessens fun by dampening variety and replayability", you surely are going out of your way to demonstrate why humans are better than other races for a Paladin.

Like a certain POTUS, I don't attack, only counterattack.

Your original statement, joking or in earnest, was the min-maxxing that my counterattack was intended to subvert.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Int 12? Wis 12? Cha 14 and Dex 9? On a Paladin?

The only three legal ways to play a melee Paladin in Kingmaker are:
- aasimar with 18/14/14/7/9/18;
- motherless tiefling with 18/14/14/5/9/17;
- halfling because small paladins are funny.

Everything else should be punished by death.

Don't forget Dwarven Paladin of Torag.

 

[Desiderius]

(1) TL;dr. Once again the concept of opportunity cost seems lost on Codex commenters. Unless you're telling me what feat you're giving up (Wings also isn't worth it, nor is Crane Riposte), your argument is meaningless. As for Aura of Justice, it's win more. You own Evil already. Play Hospitaler. You're still stuck in a PnP mindset where marginal non-caster stat boosts are good. You're full-BAB STR Two-Hander. No excuse not to get Power Attack for starters.

(2) STR-based always present getting Athletics greatly increases flexibility. Everyone gets a roll on every (non-dialogue) Perception and Lore/Knowledge check, so those are good to get if they're class skills. I always regret dumping MC skills.

(3) If you're Smiting you're already winning. I have trouble imagining a scenario where a Smited Two-Handed full BABer isn't already killing stuff before the Bite even goes off.

(4) Monk splash is actively bad before level 18. The strength of the class is in the snowballing (Divine Weapon Bond, Channeling/Mercies) and higher level spells/auras. You need to get to them fast. Likewise there are some good Heavy Armors which need a home. Blessed Plate is early, two extra Smites, and frees up your head slot. Crane doesn't even turn on until you've already attacked. You don't get Uncanny Dodge. You're not a tank, don't try to be one.

 

[Desiderius]

Aside from RP considerations, Human is often the best choice, but if one of the racial abilities is worth a feat, as with Dwarves, and you need those stats then another Race is the way to go. It's never worth it for the stats alone.

 

[NJClaw]

(1) TL;dr. Once again the concept of opportunity cost seems lost on Codex commenters. Unless you're telling me what feat you're giving up (Wings also isn't worth it, nor is Crane Riposte), your argument is meaningless. As for Aura of Justice, it's win more. You own Evil already. Play Hospitaler. You're still stuck in a PnP mindset where marginal non-caster stat boosts are good. You're full-BAB STR Two-Hander. No excuse not to get Power Attack for starters.

(2) STR-based always present getting Athletics greatly increases flexibility. Everyone gets a roll on every (non-dialogue) Perception and Lore/Knowledge check, so those are good to get if they're class skills. I always regret dumping MC skills.

(3) If you're Smiting you're already winning. I have trouble imagining a scenario where a Smited Two-Handed full BABer isn't already killing stuff before the Bite even goes off.

(4) Monk splash is actively bad before level 18. The strength of the class is in the snowballing (Divine Weapon Bond) and higher level spells/auras. You need to get to them fast. Likewise there are some good Heavy Armors which need a home. Blessed Plate is early, two extra Smites, and frees up your head slot.

Again, you decided my comment was about optimization and you are trying to coinvince me that with the human you can obtain an even more optimized character. But there's no need for that, because I agree with you.

Regarding the Monk splash, it's obviously a bad decision for your offensive capabilities, but you gain a good chunk of AC thanks to the robe and the Charisma bonus. Mind you, I'm not saying that it makes for a stronger build, I'm just saying that it works and it can be fun.

I don't think I am stuck in a PnP mindset, but I'm sure you are stuck arguing with me about things that you read in my post that I absolutely didn't intend to convey.
You always say that certain P:K optimizers are very unfriendly towards newcomers and other participants, but here I just said "I like these three things" and you intervened to tell me that the human paladin is better and:

I didn't think anyone could get more retarded than the all classes need Vivi-splashes tards, then along came the Motherless Tiefling tards.

I mean, chill out.

 

[NJClaw]

Aside from RP considerations, Human is often the best choice, but if one of the racial abilities is worth a feat, as with Dwarves, and you need those stats then another Race is the way to go. It's never worth it for the stats alone.

For the love of god, I know it's not worth it, otherwise I wouldn't have said multiple times that the human is better.

 

[Desiderius]

I mean, chill out.

I'm chill about everything* but (erroneously, in this game) advocating the same race/class splash for all builds for reasons already stated. Whether in jest or in earnest such advocacy is the bane of enjoyment in games where it's actually accurate. It's doubly poisonous in a game expressly designed to subvert such advocacy.

* - obv also the mindset that confuses sucking at game with game sucking since it's the number one cause of the faceroll plague, but thankfully you don't suffer from that delusion

 

[Desiderius]

Aside from RP considerations, Human is often the best choice, but if one of the racial abilities is worth a feat, as with Dwarves, and you need those stats then another Race is the way to go. It's never worth it for the stats alone.

For the love of god, I know it's not worth it, otherwise I wouldn't have said multiple times that the human is better.

I was trying to disagree that Human is always better. What I've found, to my surprise, is that Aasimar, and to some extent Tiefling, is almost always worse. Caveat being that caster stat is way more important than fighter stat, but other races can already get that.

 

[Desiderius]

Regarding the Monk splash, it's obviously a bad decision for your offensive capabilities, but you gain a good chunk of AC thanks to the robe and the Charisma bonus. Mind you, I'm not saying that it makes for a stronger build, I'm just saying that it works and it can be fun.

You don't get the Robe until lvl 13. Again Monk splashing is boring when optimal. Here it's not even optimal before House where you probably need the Touch AC (keeping in mind that Crane doesn't kick in until you've attacked). I'm making three arguments at once (counter-minmax in general, counter this particular minmax because boring, counter this particular minmax because suboptimal) so understandable if it's confusing.

I had a blast with Hospitaler MC, and discovered through experience that much of the conventional wisdom regarding the class was wrong. Bow up and Slay.

 

[Atlet]

Did Jason Bulmahn directly consel in any way the OwlCat team?

 

[Pink Eye]

Did Jason Bulmahn directly consel in any way the OwlCat team?

He does mention that a few times in the lets play.

 

[Pink Eye]

Creative Director of Pathfinder, James Jacobs, did a couple of streams of Kingmaker:

 

[Luckmann]

Int 12? Wis 12? Cha 14 and Dex 9? On a Paladin?

The only three legal ways to play a melee Paladin in Kingmaker are:
- aasimar with 18/14/14/7/9/18;
- motherless tiefling with 18/14/14/5/9/17;
- halfling because small paladins are funny.

Everything else should be punished by death.

Don't forget Dwarven Paladin of Torag.

Everyone knows that the most prestigious paladins are paladins of the Light and the Sun, which in this case means Sarenrae.

Check mate, atheists.

 

[Sweeper]

Deep down, you know exactly what it says about the game, you just don't want to admit it to yourself, he couldn't get farther than 23 hours in.

I'd probably have stopped playing way earlier if someone else butchered my system, i can give him that, the guy has some endurance.

But he didn't create it. Pathfinder is a tweaked D&D 3.5

 

[Sweeper]

It's either Old or Shit, why u gotta be like that Infinitron?
I hurt too you know.

 

[Delterius]

The only three legal ways to play a melee Paladin in Kingmaker are:

don't lmao

Corrected.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

(4) Monk splash is actively bad before level 18. The strength of the class is in the snowballing (Divine Weapon Bond, Channeling/Mercies) and higher level spells/auras. You need to get to them fast. Likewise there are some good Heavy Armors which need a home. Blessed Plate is early, two extra Smites, and frees up your head slot. Crane doesn't even turn on until you've already attacked. You don't get Uncanny Dodge. You're not a tank, don't try to be one.

Monk dip level 1 can make the tutorial a lot easier on Unfair just because DEX bonus + AC bonus + Mage Armor potion + Free AC ring gives you over 20 AC with no real penalties if you have one of the typical stat distributions with around 14-16 DEX, 16-18 CHA. It's not guaranteed to keep you from being one-shot, but you're going to do a lot better with full movement speed and higher AC than the paladin starting gear will ever get you. You will be hit less and because of that, you should have a higher chance to make it through the truly difficult encounters without having to reload. Plus in the first chapter, it costs less to get the mage armor wand and stack it with the AC bonus than it does to get that piece of plate armor. You don't need as much money because you have less characters that need expensive armor and you can put more money into potions+scrolls that keep everyone alive longer and let you kill the enemies much faster. It's just more efficient in the short run and just as if not more effective in the long run. On top of that, you can find a variety of masterwork and +1 monk weapons early in game for free before you even start to see +1 of any other weapon type.
Maybe you delay one of the +1's from the Paladin bonds earlier. But so what? Delaying something one level in this game usually isn't enough to ruin the build for you especially if you can level optimally

 

[Erikkolai]

Can't help but think of this whenever I see the Black Paladin portrait he chose. For some reason it appears whenever I search for portraits.