The Codex of Roguelikes

[AgentFransis]

Since Cataclysm was very talked about in this page and someone mentioned even a variant, does anyone know if there's any variant of it that offers an objective/endgame state?

The one thing that keeps me from enjoying CDDA or Caves of Qud is the fact that neither offer an objective and I'm the kind of fag that needs one. Wandering around the world just trying to get stronger/immortal is fun for the first couple of minutes but gets boring really quick.

Not to my knowledge and I agree with you. I would prefer an escalating endgame threat that is either surmountable or virtually insurmountable. The current monster evolution over-time just doesn't cut it; even when speeding it up in the worldgen you're still be a deity in impenetrable heavy survivor armor or a flat out power armor suit.

Yeah. It's too easy to become unstoppable. Worse that that, once you become a god there's no motivation to keep going once you've seen all there is to see. If survival (in terms of food and such) was a lot harder so you had to keep scavenging and threats escalated a lot more then it would be different.

As it stands only the early/mid game is interesting beyond brief power power fantasies or amusing yourself with esoteric weapons. Replayability can be achieved by starting new characters and using challenge starts, modified world settings (less loot, more zombies, faster zombies etc.), characters with severe negative traits and house rules like no survivor suits, no bionics, no mutations, melee only, no car etc.. Now that I think about it a scavenged food only challenge should be interesting (i.e no foraging, no hunting, no farms).

 

[Matador]

Damn, fired up DCSS and they even show cursed things on the floor now, why have this kind of items then?

https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/0-27-the-cursed-flame

Cursed items removed in 0.27.

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

The current monster evolution over-time just doesn't cut it; even when speeding it up in the worldgen you're still be a deity in impenetrable heavy survivor armor or a flat out power armor suit.

The current magic mod included with the game adds some monsters that can cut you down easily even in heavy armor...but its fairly obvious in how to find/avoid them and it adds a few methods to get to that strength level anyway.

 

[PapaPetro]

Since Cataclysm was very talked about in this page and someone mentioned even a variant, does anyone know if there's any variant of it that offers an objective/endgame state?

The one thing that keeps me from enjoying CDDA or Caves of Qud is the fact that neither offer an objective and I'm the kind of fag that needs one. Wandering around the world just trying to get stronger/immortal is fun for the first couple of minutes but gets boring really quick.

Not to my knowledge and I agree with you. I would prefer an escalating endgame threat that is either surmountable or virtually insurmountable. The current monster evolution over-time just doesn't cut it; even when speeding it up in the worldgen you're still be a deity in impenetrable heavy survivor armor or a flat out power armor suit.

Yeah. It's too easy to become unstoppable. Worse that that, once you become a god there's no motivation to keep going once you've seen all there is to see. If survival (in terms of food and such) was a lot harder so you had to keep scavenging and threats escalated a lot more then it would be different.

As it stands only the early/mid game is interesting beyond brief power power fantasies or amusing yourself with esoteric weapons. Replayability can be achieved by starting new characters and using challenge starts, modified world settings (less loot, more zombies, faster zombies etc.), characters with severe negative traits and house rules like no survivor suits, no bionics, no mutations, melee only, no car etc.. Now that I think about it a scavenged food only challenge should be interesting (i.e no foraging, no hunting, no farms).

There's one solution that pops to mind that they've toyed with but just neglected: Rebuilding Civilization.
You can have NPCs and build camps/infrastructure, but it's kinda of dead end. The NPCs are quasi-retarded and are a bitch to equip and command properly. The faction base building is clumsy yet nice first step, but the devs want to focus on other minutia (most players don't even know you can do this with the NPCs you recruit).
Would be nice to have an endgame option to build an army, reclaim cities/resources, fight increasingly lethal raider/zombie/mutant/robo hybrid factions, and rebuild the wasteland with your post-apocalyptic godlike status.

 

[PapaPetro]

The current monster evolution over-time just doesn't cut it; even when speeding it up in the worldgen you're still be a deity in impenetrable heavy survivor armor or a flat out power armor suit.

The current magic mod included with the game adds some monsters that can cut you down easily even in heavy armor...but its fairly obvious in how to find/avoid them and it adds a few methods to get to that strength level anyway.

Everything is vulnerable to metagaming knowledge after awhile.
The owlbear becomes the new moose in early game.
The troll becomes the new zombear/hulk dissoluted devourer.
Shit even the Demon Spider Queen with 5k+ HP goes down with Barrett M107A1, about 5 mags of .50 BMG and a little bit of scoot & shoot patience.

Frankly the power you get from player magic outweighs the enemies/dangers of Magiclysm; especially considering that the spell system in CDDA bypasses damage resistances.
Don't get me wrong, it's fun as hell and I love playing with the mod. Nothing like stacking speed rings, haste belt/boots, bionics, mutations and Synaptic Stimulation for over double the action speed. Or just AoEing a horde with Ethereal Grasp.

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

Isn't the NPC base-building function straight retarded? I remember reading something on their github about how it takes an unreasonable amount of time for a NPC to build a base or something, which renders the whole system pointless.
What I'm hoping for in terms of difficulty is when they implement their planned region mode, I believe the intended use by the devteam is to use it for the ocean. That'd be cool in a sense, but inevitably boring. No, what I'd be interested in seeing it used for is a city. It'd be complete chaos to play, I remember having the maximum amount of enemies possible back when the game had the precinct spawn option. They would rip apart all the walls to get in, it was nuts. I'm sure it'd be even crazier with the zombies stacked 20+ Z-levels high, gradually climbing out of the upper floors at the sound of gunshots/chaos. Of course, while I'm wishing for things that will never happen, I'd sure like to see a tropical region, like that one Dawn of the Dead ripoff set in Papua New Guinea or something. The entire third world as zombies indeed.

 

[PapaPetro]

Isn't the NPC base-building function straight retarded?

Megaretarded.
Given the time, effort, and resources, you're better off doing it yourself. It's become a vaporware mechanic.

I remember having the maximum amount of enemies possible back when the game had the precinct spawn option

They have something similar in the Special>Defense mode in the menu; you have to defend a location against increasing waves of monsters and buy/managed resources inbetween the waves. Might be up your alley.

 

[hackncrazy]

Jupiter Hell just released today, is it any good now?

I remember that when it came out in EA it was heavily criticized because it lacked a lot of features. how did it develop? Is it on DoomRL level?

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

God i loved doom RL. I also enjoyed castlevaniRL and Mt drashRL.

Anyway, you gotta love that trailer just a bit. I almost wish for an animated series.



On the gog page this was the only negative I could see and it was just part of a 2 star review.

A few runs in, every game start to feel the same: Same floor, same layout, same gun, same enemy. Mechanics don’t offer you options. Yes, a soldier can reduce pain; a technician can throw a smoke screen, but typically only once every level. You find grenades, one or two in a level. Sometimes you hit the jackpot with 5 grenades, only to realize you can take only 1 or have to drop a stimpack. J. Hell does not surprise.

You can spend a few perks to sprint. This gets you out of the nasty situation, like a Kerberos dog biting your leg. Unfortunately, you cannot use it till next level. Btw. there is hardly any use of sprint other than run away from dogs and on occasion get you into safe cover. Perhaps JH is meant to be played differently? Perhaps, I should use the one special my character has only when really needed? Between those instances, it does not matter what character I play: I move carefully, stay behind cover, and spam the fire button when sighting enemies. They walk up to me anyway (totally ignorant of cover) and they drop. The only criterion to get further is to not forget the 12ga jackhammer and find enough healing packs to survive the next wave of fire fiends.

I can't confirm this about floor layouts being samish and its still in developement. It looks pretty awesome.

 

[Metronome]

Finished the lab challenge yesterday in Cataclysm by dragging a skeleton juggernaut corpse up to the turret along with a few other zombie corpses. Eventually they were able to kill it after about a week of trying. Made some decent armor, got the card from the bottom room (it was full of flying polyps and eyeballs), and escaped. That was pretty satisfying.

Yeah. It's too easy to become unstoppable. Worse that that, once you become a god there's no motivation to keep going once you've seen all there is to see. If survival (in terms of food and such) was a lot harder so you had to keep scavenging and threats escalated a lot more then it would be different.

I always wanted to go into one of those shimmering portals and explore some other dimensions. It seems like the logical conclusion to the overworld becoming too easy. Maybe kill some Eldritch gods and save the world or something. I also remember a huge experimental military base full of snipers and tanks in a past version. Not sure if it still exists. I assumed it would be the hardest challenge the game had to throw at you. I don't think anything you can do really makes you unstoppable with regards to it.

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

I always wanted to go into one of those shimmering portals and explore some other dimensions. It seems like the logical conclusion to the overworld becoming too easy. Maybe kill some Eldritch gods and save the world or something. I also remember a huge experimental military base full of snipers and tanks in a past version. Not sure if it still exists. I assumed it would be the hardest challenge the game had to throw at you. I don't think anything you can do really makes you unstoppable with regards to it.

I've spent some time reading developer statements about the game, and some of what you want is never going to happen. Humanity has already lost, the elder gods have won and left. The only thing we can do is clean up best we can before the world turns completely alien. Since I'm bringing this up anyway, it seems their plan for making the game harder is having locations gradually become decayed, items disappearing, that sort of thing. I'm sure in the long term that probably means unpleasant places popping up full of dangerous enemies after a certain period of time. Wouldn't be surprised if they one day do the other things you wanted. I never expected them to throw in helicopters, yet here they are.

 

[hackncrazy]

Well, for all changes they're making in DCSS, I can't wait to see they remove the identification minigame for scrolls and potions. I really hate this mechanic in RLs and would love to play some variants without this (I think Hellcrawl already does it, maybe there's a Brogue variant that does it as well).

 

[PapaPetro]

I think recent Angband dumped identify

 

[Matador]

Well, for all changes they're making in DCSS, I can't wait to see they remove the identification minigame for scrolls and potions. I really hate this mechanic in RLs and would love to play some variants without this (I think Hellcrawl already does it, maybe there's a Brogue variant that does it as well).

I think ID mechanic is not bad in itself. It can be implemented well or badly.

In Brogue is really important,tense and well done. Removing it would damage the game.

 

[Metronome]

I don't mind identification. I hate curses though.

 

[Matador]

Got an itch to play roguelikes again. I think I'm going to focus on Sil-Q and the current version of Infra Arcana.

 

[AgentFransis]

Started playing Shadow of the Wyrm. First run accidently pissed off my god by skinning a human (played too much Cataclysm). Opened a sarcophagus in the dungeon and a Holy Avenger came and instakilled me. Second run went into the crypts under the fort. A ghost touched me and I died of petrification. This game doesn't fuck around.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

I keep getting notifications. ADOM

 

[Metronome]

I've spent some time reading developer statements about the game, and some of what you want is never going to happen. Humanity has already lost, the elder gods have won and left. The only thing we can do is clean up best we can before the world turns completely alien. Since I'm bringing this up anyway, it seems their plan for making the game harder is having locations gradually become decayed, items disappearing, that sort of thing. I'm sure in the long term that probably means unpleasant places popping up full of dangerous enemies after a certain period of time. Wouldn't be surprised if they one day do the other things you wanted. I never expected them to throw in helicopters, yet here they are.

That's too bad. I always thought those portals were planned to send you to some other world. Dwindling supplies won't mean much for a veteran survivor and it just makes exploration less rewarding. Particularly in the end when you are already checking out from boredom. If they are wondering what to do for an endgame, that's what I would do. Make some hostile alien worlds to explore via the portals. Put your OP characters to the test by conquering them. Like a reverse cataclysm. Since by the end you can already purge the zombies, fungi, triffids, etc well enough on earth.

 

[eXalted]

Or just terraform Earth slowly until it is actually the alien world.

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

That's too bad. I always thought those portals were planned to send you to some other world. Dwindling supplies won't mean much for a veteran survivor and it just makes exploration less rewarding. Particularly in the end when you are already checking out from boredom. If they are wondering what to do for an endgame, that's what I would do. Make some hostile alien worlds to explore via the portals. Put your OP characters to the test by conquering them. Like a reverse cataclysm. Since by the end you can already purge the zombies, fungi, triffids, etc well enough on earth.

I don't know if that part's in the cards, I just remember two things they said they'd never do, which is allow the player to return Earth to normal, and to give the player certain bodily functions. I suspect what eXalted is saying is a future goal, though I was thinking more in bigger, nastier slime pits popping up until sometime in the future they've figured out how to make Earth the alien world without breaking the game.

 

[Metronome]

Probably not. It would be a lot of work and their community makes it difficult to do anything too interesting. But exploring slime pits just doesn't sound like much of a pay out after about a year of surviving. Exploring other worlds though? Now that would be cool. Finding sections of the world that are totally transformed would be a nice consolation. Both would be even better. If finding the ocean is satisfying, how much more so would be finding a vast stretch of alien land you can actually do something with?

I just remember two things they said they'd never do, which is allow the player to return Earth to normal, and to give the player certain bodily functions.

Things seem to be ultimately justified by realism these days. But with exotic materials (which already exist in the game) that becomes more flexible. Exotic materials like mutagen can already do things that would be impossible. Something that works like that could not exist in our world. As for turning the world back to normal, the same idea applies. It seems like the limits are your imagination once you consider exotic materials.

It becomes odd to say the situation is grim when you are apparently dominating. The lore says things are hopeless but gameplay feels much different. As "reality" naturally makes human victory inevitable. Just find a few survivors and the earth can be repopulated in no time. The most dangerous faction in the game after all these years of development remains the products of human civilization. Precisely because the game follows "realistic" physical limitations. Who would win in a fight? A fast walking tree or an aimbot with a machine gun and a flame thrower? According to conventional physics it's no contest. Our technology exploits those physics without sentimentality. That's how warfare works and why the most dangerous enemies are a turret at an odd angle or a robotic tank with a grenade launcher. Two or three robot tanks can clear even a late game city without too much difficulty. Monsters are always going to be punted around by the player unless they exploit exotic materials to give themselves a supernatural edge. And if they could do that then the player could as well through mutagens or artifacts. Particularly artifacts because they seem to modify your stats without any apparent physical changes.

Until then the endgame will likely remain weaseling around old military installations and trying to steal supreme human technology. Then taking those tools and brutalizing everything else until you get bored. Because at that point you have basically won. If slime, fungus, or plants are dominant in another dimension it implies the rules there would be different as well. Otherwise they would be vaguely humanoid and use similar technology. They are sickly and disadvantaged here when they follow our rules. It makes sense but it isn't very impressive.

They might just be more formidable on their home turf though. Or if they brought their home turf here, then they should be able to out-perform human technology. My biggest fear in a horror game should not be some guy with a rifle. Particularly if I have become the demons. It's all just very dull. Rather than giving you something greater to work towards they debuff you so that what there already is will be more dangerous. The existing game gets longer and longer but nothing new or particularly exciting is ever added. The same routine with the same conclusion. How much has really changed since Whales dropped the project years ago?

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

Probably not. It would be a lot of work and their community makes it difficult to do anything too interesting. But exploring slime pits just doesn't sound like much of a pay out after about a year of surviving. Exploring other worlds though? Now that would be cool. Finding sections of the world that are totally transformed would be a nice consolation. Both would be even better. If finding the ocean is satisfying, how much more so would be finding a vast stretch of alien land you can actually do something with?

I did a little checking more, and it seems that exploring other worlds is something they could do, the only problem is filling it. Which I guess is a problem if they want to make the world actually alien, instead of like the human world, but with alien slapped in front of things.

Things seem to be ultimately justified by realism these days. But with exotic materials (which already exist in the game) that becomes more flexible. Exotic materials like mutagen can already do things that would be impossible. Something that works like that could not exist in our world. As for turning the world back to normal, the same idea applies. It seems like the limits are your imagination once you consider exotic materials.

Spoiler

The problem is that the mutagen doing things that are impossible, is that in-lore, it only improves those already consumed by the blob. You know, the overarching thing controlling all the zombies. Everyone is under its influence, even if they're not zombies. And since the blob is everywhere, even the water, it'd be really difficult for your character to stay cured, assuming he could cure himself. This ties into the original point I was dancing around with the oversized blob pits. They're planning on making zombie hordes running around in the wilderness, led by a zombie master, so clearly their thoughts are on huge, nasty hordes. My thought is that the blob pits would be a sign of its gradually growing influence, and these blob bits would be wandering around the countryside. Of course, the problem with this is it goes against the "humanity is screwed" bit. What possible reason would there be to deal with one, outside of preventing wandering enemies?
Also, judging by other bits I've read, more aliens are going to be thrown into the mix, friendly ones.

Either way I think they realize that the game's too easy past a certain point, they're just not sure how to improve on that yet. I don't think they have any idea where they're going with it at this point.

 

[dextermorgan]

The whole Blob concept seems rather crippling when it comes to coming up with any kind of end-game scenario. Everything is ultimately pointless.

 

[AgentFransis]

Finished Shadow of the Wyrm.

As you can see the title refers to the beta wyrm cowering in fear in the shadow of our mighty hero. Game's much too easy. The final boss battle was really anticlimactic - half the wyrm's attacks were canceled by my intimidation skill (not OP at all) and the rest missed because of my absurdly high evasion.

My char was a dwarven smith. After the starting quests I delved into (what I realized later) was the infinite dungeon not far from the starting village. Made it to dungeon level forty something before I got bored and the game started hinting that I should gtfo by spawning huge mobs of spirits that can clip through walls and swarm you (luckily there's a warp scroll that returns you to the surface). By this point I mostly had all the gear and levels I needed. Then I explored the world, did some quests, got the shrine gems for the super duper sword and went and killed the boss. It's also implied that there's a hidden boss somewhere but I scoured the whole map and couldn't find it. Maybe it's not implemented yet.

So pretty cool game overall but it's pretty simplistic and unpolished. Starting gear looks normal and unassuming but as you delve pretty crazy gear starts dropping regularly. The itemization is almost Diabloesque with lot's of different base armor items dropping with wild variations of their actual stats and often with a random resistance attached. As a smith I could also use iron/steel ingots to improve armor to absurdly high levels and then use enchanting scrolls to pump it up even more. Weapons can also be improved but the artifacts are still the best weapons (and unimprovable). This gear inflation just serves to make finding high level gear not nearly as exciting and allows you to get way overpowered by the lategame. I barely took a single point of damage in the boss dungeon.

The most interesting mechanic of the game is that every attack and spell is of one of 11 damage types and each of them can apply a special effect. This ranges from mundane like pierce attacks that can lower you evasion or cold attacks slowing you down to extremely dangerous like shadow attacks turning you to stone if you don't drink a potion within a few turns, lightning attacks paralyzing you or flame attacks blinding you. By the late game this becomes irrelevant since you can stack resistances very high from eating corpses of high level monsters and gear and from having extremely high evade so you barely get hit in the first place.

The world is nice to explore but it's mostly generic dungeon filler and few actually designed locations.

I suspect the author of the game made it mainly as a place to put all the lovely codex and bestiary entries he had written. Every single item and monster has a nice flavorful paragraph about it (though nothing particularly original). As further evidence I present this fucking poem:

If Homer made a Roguelike.