The Codex’s Best Computer RPGs (pre-Diablo)

[Rincewind]

but issues like Rincewind brings up are rather beyond pedantic because unless you've got some sort of professional games archivist or someone completely insane like CRPG Addict, there's no reasonable way of getting around it.

I don't think it's pedantic at all, and in my proposal I was quite lenient with the barrier of entry to voting (having played 50% of all titles, that seems pretty lenient to me; we could go even higher). You have actually hit the nail exactly on the head when you said "professional games archivists"; e.g. who should come up with a "Best 50 books of world literature" type of list? People whose whole life is consumed by reading books (and are "insane", in a way), or random votes of random people who have read less than 50 books in their lives overall? The latter is a popularity contest and semi-random sampling; I would take the opinion of that single knowledgeable guy over thousands of random voters any day without hesitation.

The thing with the CRPGAddict is that his "must play" and GOTY lists are pretty much the closest thing we have to an accurate "best of" list so far; it's virtually unparalleled. Yes, he has his biases, and I very much disagree with his rankings on quite a few individual titles. But overall, he is consistent with his biases, and that's one of the most important points that is so easy to overlook. You can check out his full list, or read the individual reviews, and relatively easily correct for his bias based on your own preferences (i.e. replace it with your personal bias).

We have quite a few people here who have indeed played the vast majority of games on the list, well over my proposed 50%:

I've played 185 of them, including all of them up until 1989, when I missed 2088: The Cryllan Mission.

From Deuce Traveler's signature:

Favorite CRPG of the Last Year: Dark Souls 2. RPGs Completed: 280

I don't know the exact numbers for octavius, mondblut and Fowyr, but my guess is they are well above 50% as well.

Anyway, I think I have stated my point sufficiently enough. Plus, in practical terms, I can always just do my own tallying based on the votes of the member of the R.P.G. club, so...

EDIT: Another idea. Every voter could also disclose the total number of games he actually played from the list. We could use this number to weight the votes. Doing it linearly would be perhaps a bit extreme, but you can always apply a logarithmic function to the weight or something. That would in effect reduce the contribution of votes of people who have played only a few games to practically zero (which is exactly the point! -- unless you really want a popularity contest). Of course, the weak point of this approach is that it relies on the honesty of the participants...

 

[Null Null]

Not sure why I got tagged unless they were trying to slant the voting in favor of goldbox games (which may have been the idea), though, hey, thanks. My game experience is somewhat limited for this place, as I've played Goldbox, Eye of the Beholder, Dragon Wars, Dungeon Master, the three latest Avernum series (way too late, though I did play the shareware portion of the Exile games), and Cultist Simulator (way too late for this, though I still recommend it--one of the few settings I've seen that does Lovecraftian without Cthulhu well).

I'll give 2 points to FRUA (spent quite a bit of time as a member of that community and it's survived for three decades), 2 points to Pools of Darkness (challenging and one of the few games to really do post-apocalyptic fantasy that I know), 2 points to Death Knights of Krynn (rather enjoyed the Night-of-the-Living-Dead aspect and relative open-endedness), 2 points to Dragon Wars so I'm not a complete goldbox partisan (and ya know, I enjoyed that Irkalla pic more than I like to admit) and 2 points to Pool of Radiance, because of course.

I liked Exile, but I didn't finish it (the game was fun but I didn't want to pay the shareware fee at the time--it wasn't a money thing, I was afraid of giving out my credit card # online), so doesn't seem fair to rate it.

 

[mindx2]

My goodness this is HARD!! (Only 5?!! )

5 points:
Ultima Underworld I

2 points:
Pool of Radiance

1 point each:
Ultima VI
Daggerfall
Wizardry VII

These choices are based off of total enjoyment (gameplay) not innovation, cRPG foundations, etc so I avoided classics like U4, Dungeon Master, M&M I and II, etc.).

 

[LibertyRansom]

10 points to Star Control 2: The Ur-Quan Masters

 

[Adidas-Clichèd Cringe]

5 points to Star Control 2: The Ur-Quan Masters

4 points to Darklands

1 point to Wasteland

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I admit I love it more for its ideas than for its elegance (what it promises vs how it plays). It has so many of the elements modern RPGs are only finally starting to delve into now when it comes to implementing game systems within aestetics/roleplaying choices - which includes trying to stuff with choose-your-own-adventure style mechanics. Basically what old RPGs did so frikkin' well was laying the foundation for combat and exploration mechanics. They rarely tried to make a good game out of their story and setting. When they did (like Betrayal of Krondor and later Planescape: Torment), the game was an afterthought - the setting and the story were built from words and writing.

Then after older games came this Mass Effect-wave of narrative games which tried to bring the character interaction of roleplaying to the forefront. How? By just doing away with mechanics entirely and boiling everything down to story choices and writing.

And thus, like the one ring, the design document that was Darklands was lost: that RPG mechanics could be used to used to do storytelling, atmosphere, setting and character interaction as well.

Modern RPGs seem to slowly be re-realizing this (I won't mention a certain unmentionable modern game for fear of bringing down the hivemind's hammer here), but it's a tragedy that were we're still so far from delivering on Darklands' promise given that it put down such a solid foundation almost 30 years ago.

Darklands is the game that, more than any other in this thread save perhaps Daggerfall, most deserves a modern tech remake. It was so ahead of its time in ambition and creativity. The problem is there's nobody qualified to do a Darklands remake. If they didn't Netflix the setting, they'd sand down the rough-edged mechanics or otherwise just bungle the atmosphere.

how would all the characters being gay make a better game?

 

[mediocrepoet]

but issues like Rincewind brings up are rather beyond pedantic because unless you've got some sort of professional games archivist or someone completely insane like CRPG Addict, there's no reasonable way of getting around it.

I don't think it's pedantic at all, and in my proposal I was quite lenient with the barrier of entry to voting (having played 50% of all titles, that seems pretty lenient to me; we could go even higher). You have actually hit the nail exactly on the head when you said "professional games archivists"; e.g. who should come up with a "Best 50 books of world literature" type of list? People whose whole life is consumed by reading books (and are "insane", in a way), or random votes of random people who have read less than 50 books in their lives overall? The latter is a popularity contest and semi-random sampling; I would take the opinion of that single knowledgeable guy over thousands of random voters any day without hesitation.

The thing with the CRPGAddict is that his "must play" and GOTY lists are pretty much the closest thing we have to an accurate "best of" list so far; it's virtually unparalleled. Yes, he has his biases, and I very much disagree with his rankings on quite a few individual titles. But overall, he is consistent with his biases, and that's one of the most important points that is so easy to overlook. You can check out his full list, or read the individual reviews, and relatively easily correct for his bias based on your own preferences (i.e. replace it with your personal bias).

We have quite a few people here who have indeed played the vast majority of games on the list, well over my proposed 50%:

I've played 185 of them, including all of them up until 1989, when I missed 2088: The Cryllan Mission.

From Deuce Traveler's signature:

Favorite CRPG of the Last Year: Dark Souls 2. RPGs Completed: 280

I don't know the exact numbers for octavius, mondblut and Fowyr, but my guess is they are well above 50% as well.

Anyway, I think I have stated my point sufficiently enough. Plus, in practical terms, I can always just do my own tallying based on the votes of the member of the R.P.G. club, so...

EDIT: Another idea. Every voter could also disclose the total number of games he actually played from the list. We could use this number to weight the votes. Doing it linearly would be perhaps a bit extreme, but you can always apply a logarithmic function to the weight or something. That would in effect reduce the contribution of votes of people who have played only a few games to practically zero (which is exactly the point! -- unless you really want a popularity contest). Of course, the weak point of this approach is that it relies on the honesty of the participants...

I understand the issue that you raise and even agree with it to some degree. It's more that I tend to find any such lists tend to start coming down to personal bias and idiosyncracies that we can try to explain in order to communicate why they're ranked accordingly. This is why I usually find simple points votes to be generally worthless unless I really understand where a person is coming from. For a good example, I think most people who've been on the Codex for any length of time understand more or less where mondblut is coming from when he talks about his game rankings.

The issue that I take exception to and would describe as pedantic is the idea that the thread needs a new name or that there is some way of approaching the objective truth of the relative merits across the history of computer games. At best, we can say that various games are worth checking out for various reasons and/or they're still fun playing today. YMMV

To be clear though, the remark was more about your general point as I understand it rather than a personal call out.

 

[Mortmal]

I disagree with most posters as usual...The best rpg are the revolutionary ones . So it's dungeon master , ultima underworld , and to a lesser extent ultima 7 but i could pick 5 or 6 . So 3.33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333 , lets round up for each of them.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

My goodness this is HARD!! (Only 5?!! )

5 points:
Ultima Underworld I

2 points:
Pool of Radiance

1 point each:
Ultima VI
Daggerfall
Wizardry VII

These choices are based off of total enjoyment (gameplay) not innovation, cRPG foundations, etc so I avoided classics like U4, Dungeon Master, M&M I and II, etc.).

Just realized I should have invited you into the Ring of Prestigious Gentlemen discussions. Failure on my part.

 

[Null Null]

FWIW, my ratings are entirely my personal opinions about games I liked, and not some larger statement about the history of gaming or anything.

 

[Mortmal]

FWIW, my ratings are entirely my personal opinions about games I liked, and not some larger statement about the history of gaming or anything.

Dont apologize, poll is meaningless like every polls on the dex. Everyone has different criterias and choose the games for completely different reasons. But just sum up points, the one with biggest number , it's the best .
Also important notice for newcomers, this is the codex : PLAYING THEM IS NOT MANDATORY.

 

[Psycroptic]

Gotta award what I've played the most. (2 pts each)

Ultima 4: Quest of the Avatar (Origin)
BattleTech: The Crescent Hawk's Inception (Westwood)
AutoDuel (Origin)
The Bard's Tale 1: Tales of the Unknown (Interplay)
Champions of Krynn (SSI)

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Also important notice for newcomers, this is the codex : PLAYING THEM IS NOT MANDATORY.

proof?

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

EDIT: Another idea. Every voter could also disclose the total number of games he actually played from the list. We could use this number to weight the votes. Doing it linearly would be perhaps a bit extreme, but you can always apply a logarithmic function to the weight or something. That would in effect reduce the contribution of votes of people who have played only a few games to practically zero (which is exactly the point! -- unless you really want a popularity contest). Of course, the weak point of this approach is that it relies on the honesty of the participants...

There is :
1. Played
2. Played & Finished
3. Replayed
4. Replayed and explored every aspect, exploit and secret most thoroughly.
5. This game is your life and ONLY GAME. There are NO others.

 

[Kruno]

Valhalla: 3
Ultima 7: The Black Gate (Origin) 4
Might and Magic: World of Xeen (New World Computing) 1
Forgotten Realms Unlimited Adventures (SSI) 1
Exile: Escape from the Pit (Spiderweb Software) 1

I gave U7 the most points because it has been unsurpassed as the best open world game in existence. Also the most fun I have had in an RPG.

Rogue because it is the granddaddy of everything referred to as a "Roguelike" or a "Roguelite".

Valhalla: I fell in love with this roguelike when I was a kid, it is my favourite roguelike.
---------
Edit: PhiliPepe pointed out this is best RPG. So I am changing things up again.

 

[Rincewind]

EDIT: Another idea. Every voter could also disclose the total number of games he actually played from the list. We could use this number to weight the votes. Doing it linearly would be perhaps a bit extreme, but you can always apply a logarithmic function to the weight or something. That would in effect reduce the contribution of votes of people who have played only a few games to practically zero (which is exactly the point! -- unless you really want a popularity contest). Of course, the weak point of this approach is that it relies on the honesty of the participants...

There is :
1. Played
2. Played & Finished
3. Replayed
4. Replayed and explored every aspect, exploit and secret most thoroughly.
5. This game is your life and ONLY GAME. There are NO others.

That's true. But I think anybody voting on a game as his favourite should have finished it at least once, no? That's a pretty low bar of entry. Also, there's an insurmountable deep chasm between "1. Played" and "-Inf. Never even installed it on my computer"

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Rogue (Epyx) 1
Ultima 7: The Black Gate (Origin) 4
Might and Magic: World of Xeen (New World Computing) 1
Ragnarok (Norsehelm Productions) 1
Castle of the Winds (Epic MegaGames) 1
Forgotten Realms Unlimited Adventures (SSI) 1
Exile: Escape from the Pit (Spiderweb Software) 1

I gave U7 the most points because it has been unsurpassed as the best open world game in existence.

to a maximum of 5 games.

 

[PorkaMorka]

Forgotten Realms Unlimited Adventures - 5
Champions of Krynn - 1
Death Knights of Krynn - 1
Pools of Darkness - 1
Dark Sun Shattered Lands - 2

Only voting for games I personally played before 1996ish, since I think games should be judged on how enjoyable they were at around the time they were released, not how enjoyable they are now.

Pool of Radiance was probably objectively the most impressive and innovative Gold Box game, surpassing later games in the series in some ways. But I didn't play it until a long time after it came out, so I can't vote for it.

I didn't know anything about the Dragonlance setting or novels but the Krynn games were more interesting and memorable than the other mid-level Forgotten Realms games.

Forgotten Realms Unlimited Adventures had a lot of limitations and oversights but the concept was good enough that people continued making modules for it for over 20 years and eventually figured out how to hack it to remove a lot of the original limitations. At the time, it raised my expectations / hopes for what was possible in computer games. (Future games often did not meet those expectations.)

 

[Rincewind]

Well, now that we have established that barely literates such as myself are allowed to vote as well, I'll give 5 points to Eye of the Beholder I, and keep the rest.

EDIT: I've decided to allocate all my points, what the hell...

Eye of the Beholder I (5)
Quest for Glory I (3)
Pool of Radiance (1)
Dark Heart of Uukrul (1)

 

[Kruno]

Rogue (Epyx) 1
Ultima 7: The Black Gate (Origin) 4
Might and Magic: World of Xeen (New World Computing) 1
Ragnarok (Norsehelm Productions) 1
Castle of the Winds (Epic MegaGames) 1
Forgotten Realms Unlimited Adventures (SSI) 1
Exile: Escape from the Pit (Spiderweb Software) 1

I gave U7 the most points because it has been unsurpassed as the best open world game in existence.

to a maximum of 5 games.

fuck, i cant count
edited

 

[Pots Talos]

4 points:
Ultima 7: The Black Gate

2 Points:
Quest for Glory 1: So You Want to Be a Hero
Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss

1 point:
Pool of Radiance
Eye of the Beholder 2: The Legend of Darkmoon

 

[felipepepe]

To make everyone happy, I propose to keep going with the current poll but call it the "popular vote". In addition to that, also publish the results of the members of the R.P.G. club, or whoever else qualifies by having played at least 50% of the games from the list (and I'm being generous here). In which case, I will also add my own random noise to the popularity pool (as I'm definitely not qualified for the "true" poll) .

Adding my 2 cents, it all depends on the goal of the poll. My polls I try to get the big popular hits as well as the indie gems, that's why I use bayesian averages. If the goal here is to highlight the absolute "must play" titles, I think it's a decent system. Of course, it's useless you want a curated rank from only veteran players.

Then again, I really don't see any point in having a council of wise men declare that Krondor is #1 and Dungeon Master is #2. If you wanna do a curated list, I think it doesn't make sense to make it a ranking, but rather like a guide: "The pre-Diablo RPGs you should play and why they matter".

 

[Lady Error]

5 points:

Wizardry 7

3 points:

Realms of Arkania: Star Trail

2 points:

Eye of the Beholder 2

 

[Rincewind]

If you wanna do a curated list, I think it doesn't make sense to make it a ranking

This 1000 times. I would go even further, ranking in any such games lists makes very very little sense, if any at all. Unranked curated lists are the way to go.

Even when I'm "ranking" my own music collection with stars, what the fuck does it even mean that this song is a 3, the other a 5, and this a 2, seriously? I just give 1 star to songs I never want to listen to again because they annoy me, but don't want to delete them because they're part of an album. Then if I like something, it's a 4 initially, then sometimes I elevate them to 5 which is the "ultimate" category, and by definition very few songs should have 5 stars. And that's it.

My point, even if I'm doing the ranking alone, too fine grained just devolves to silliness very fast.

 

[BruceVC]

If you wanna do a curated list, I think it doesn't make sense to make it a ranking

This 1000 times. I would go even further, ranking in any such games lists makes very very little sense, if any at all. Unranked curated lists are the way to go.

Even when I'm "ranking" my own music collection with stars, what the fuck does it even mean that this song is a 3, the other a 5, and this a 2, seriously? I just give 1 star to songs I never want to listen to again because they annoy me, but don't want to delete them because they're part of an album. Then if I like something, it's a 4 initially, then sometimes I elevate them to 5 which is the "ultimate" category, and by definition very few songs should have 5 stars. And that's it.

My point, even if I'm doing the ranking alone, too fine grained just devolves to silliness very fast.

Okay to share my opinion on the scoring system in this thread as a newcomer but someone who has gaining insight from this thread

The scoring does work and is applicable because you right that a list of 5 games or so would create real views of excellence which is important but the scoring system adds importance nuance and specificity which you need if you compare similar games that are commonly mentioned like Daggerfall, Wizardry 6&7, Pools of Radiance and Ultima 5&6 ?

So people like me and others can be more selective at which older games are the best because I cant play everything and if you dont use the scoring system it makes it much harder to differentiate. I hope this makes sense?