The Codex’s Best Computer RPGs (pre-Diablo)

[Decado]

That top 3 shows that people are voting for the games they believe are mere prototypes of what came later, which is a shame. At least Ultima Underworld is actually a great game (arguably better than all its successors) and Dark Sun has full party creation and turn-based combat, which gives it an edge over the IE games, but Betrayal at Krondor? WTF people, it's a cute game and I quite enjoyed it, but it doesn't deserve to be neaby the top 5. Having it above Darklands, Pool of Radiance or any Wizardry game is a travesty.

What if the people voting for these games don't share your opinion that they are "mere prototypes"?

Yeah, let's pretend people are voting for what made unique and worth-playing this golden era, instead of the games that feel closer to the late 90's and early 00's times.

Once again, this is a poll for the "best." It is not a poll for the most unique, worth playing, most impactful, most interesting, etc. It is a vote for the best. In that vein, it does make sense that the better games would come towards the end of an era. This likely occurs for two reasons:

1) An extended period of time gives developers a chance to borrow from each other, reiterate, try new things, refine, etc., until the best (or close to the best) realization of a mechanic or idea has been polished.
2) It's not like games know they are at the end of an "era" -- but the very concept of an era (here defined by the release of Diablo) forces us to examine everything contained in that timeline, so it also makes sense that "the best" might (but is not necessarily) a game that comes along closer to the end of the era than to its beginning.

There are exceptions. For example, many people and publications believe that World of Warcraft is still the best MMO ever made. It did not come in the beginning of the MMO era, and in many ways is highly derivative of the several MMOs that came before it. But for whatever reason, it will go down in history as the best (or one of the best) despite coming fairly early in the popularization of MMOs (brought on by widespread broadband and the change from Web 1.0 to Web 2.0).

 

[OSK]

codex is basically just a baldurs gate fan forum after all

It's always been a Fallout 1 fan forum.

 

[felipepepe]

codex is basically just a baldurs gate fan forum after all

It's always been a Fallout 1 fan forum.

Proven by Dark Sun getting so many votes... it's the most Fallout-like game before Fallout.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Is Betrayal at Kondor about to run away with this shit???

Quite likely, if not Dark sun.

Ultima Underworld seems to be doing pretty good as well.

The Codex doesn't play games released before 1997

The Codex doesn't play games released before 1992

 

[zer]

2 - Darklands
3 - Wizardry 7
2 - Daggerfall
2 - Betrayal at Krondor
1 - Ultima 7

 

[Decado]

A bit more information on the top 7 as of now:

Spoiler

Don't click the spoiler before voting.

Spoiler

Regardless of which game might actually win, this is a pretty good list and it falls broadly in line with what I expect from the Codex.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

codex is basically just a baldurs gate fan forum after all

It's always been a Fallout 1 fan forum.

Proven by Dark Sun getting so many votes... it's the most Fallout-like game before Fallout.

you guys should play albion

 

[AdolfSatan]

What's not to like about BaK?

The story is a tried and true high fantasy formula. It doesn't matter if it's generic, it works because it's well done.
The characters are very colourful and memorable.
It's got all the cool exploration from blobbers without the annoying combat. Yeah I said it. Blobber combat is boring. Fight me, bitches.
Fucking faery chests, hell yes.
Despite its age, the UI remains quick and intuitive.
Combat is simple yet satisfying.
It's fast-paced where it matters: You can evade most world map encounters, there's autowalking on the roads, the bigger towns are menu images.
This is more subjective, but I find the graphics charming.
Music is great too.

It's simply a great game to delve into and get lost in its world.
You forgo some player choice like party creation in exchange for a well-rounded story. If you're willing to approach it for what it is (an epic tale in which you are invited to be both an observer and an agent), it doesn't get much better than this.

 

[Lady Error]

This is more subjective, but I find the graphics charming.

The early 3D polygon graphics did not age as well as the 2D art of most of the other RPG's of that era.

 

[V_K]

That top 3 shows that people are voting for the games they believe are mere prototypes of what came later, which is a shame. At least Ultima Underworld is actually a great game (arguably better than all its successors) and Dark Sun has full party creation and turn-based combat, which gives it an edge over the IE games, but Betrayal at Krondor? WTF people, it's a cute game and I quite enjoyed it, but it doesn't deserve to be neaby the top 5. Having it above Darklands, Pool of Radiance or any Wizardry game is a travesty.

What if the people voting for these games don't share your opinion that they are "mere prototypes"?

Yeah, let's pretend people are voting for what made unique and worth-playing this golden era, instead of the games that feel closer to the late 90's and early 00's times.

I kinda both get and don't get your point tbh. Yes, Dark Sun and UUW are the closest things early 90s have to late 90s RPGs - but as you've said yourself, they also blow late 90s titles out of the water, so I would say they're fairly deserving of being in the top.
With BaK, onf the other hand, I agree that it's competent but not revolutionary - but what are the games that it's supposed to be a prototype of? It's mixture of JRPG with WRPG seems fairly unique to me.

 

[Darth Canoli]

It's funny how you can clearly see games with an average of 3+ gets higher ratings from fewer people purely out of nostalgia while the better games get 2.5 on average from more people.

That's why an open vote will always be a popularity contest while a closed vote from 5-10-15 experienced players who lived when these games were released and played a lot of classics; not just 2 of 3 and voted for the ones they played because they have fond memories of their youth; will be the superior format.

It's also why, once KotC 2 is released and established, and maybe Colony Ship too if it gets released early next year, i'll try to gather such a gentlemen circle to establish a faithful ranking of games by categories, which will be determined by these monocled codexers, because if it was just me, it'd be TB and party based for one and games for peasants for the second one.

Anyway, maybe that list won't get proper ratings but just stars, in order not to make it wizardry vs M&M contest or something and eventually, we wouldn't have to make another list every year because you can just add the games deserving to be added every year, and nothing else, if that's one game a year, so be it!

 

[Nryn]

4 points to Curse of the Azure Bonds for its Tactical Combat: Of the 4 games in the Pools series I found Curse to be the most interesting tactically. While Pools of Darkness features a larger number of spells owing to its higher level campaign, too many encounters in that game were readily beaten by a combination of high dexterity and instant casts of the Delayed Blast Fireball spell. With Curse, on the other hand, a lot of the high level spells available to both the party and enemy casters often had a cast time component that required the player to make constant tactical decisions. The party's casters were sitting ducks while in the process of casting their spells, requiring very good positioning to not be interrupted mid cast, and using martial classes to interrupt enemy spellcasters in turn was vital. This notion of D&D spells having a cast time in Turn Based combat led to a refreshingly novel combat experience quite unlike what one normally encounters in the more contemporary titles such as ToEE, KotC 1&2 and the Pathfinder games. It also helped that the game featured robust encounter design, with spellcaster duels against hordes of magic resistant Drow Clerics and Magic Users, an appropriately epic final boss fight, and a very memorable gimmick fight against a small army of Beholders.

3 points to Betrayal at Krondor for its Structure: BaK effortlessly implemented something rarely seen in CRPGs -- a story that unfolds chapter-wise using multiple points of view, a story structure commonly found in sprawling fantasy books. Instead of a singular focus on a character or a party, as is the norm in the vast majority of CRPGs, there were different parties that each had their own individual storylines and goals, only for all the individual story threads to eventually converge in a climactic finale. The only recent WRPG I can think of that even attempted such a structure, though on a far smaller scale, was the Game of Thrones RPG from nearly a decade ago. BaK also has one of my favourite implementations of the adventuring life, and going from one tavern to another playing bardic instruments to raise money never got old.

3 points to Wizardry 6: Bane of the Cosmic Forge for its Choice: In the decades since Wiz 6's release, CRPGs have placed far greater emphasis on C&C, but Wiz 6's major C&C still contains the most audacious choice I've seen in a CRPG. Spoilers for a 31 year old game:

Spoiler

Throughout the game, DW Bradley forces the player to lug around numerous quest items in order to solve his esoteric puzzles and make progress. By the time the last quarter of the game rolls around, the player is conditioned to the idea that quest items taking up valuable inventory slots must be carried around until one solves the related puzzle. The game's major choice is determined by whether the player is able to break free of Bradley's conditioning and bring oneself to permanently drop a quest item before it is used elsewhere. Not only does this choice significantly change the final stretch of the game, along with the final boss fight, it also determines which region in Wizardry 7 a party starts in, and also leads to unique gameplay benefits in Wizardry 8. The gameplay consequences seen in Wiz 7 and 8 retrospectively elevate Wiz 6's choice, and when it comes to choices with long term consequences, the 11 year gap between Wiz 6 and 8 makes Wiz 6's choice peerless.

 

[Disciple]

[...] a closed vote from 5-10-15 experienced players who lived when these games were released and played a lot of classics; not just 2 of 3 and voted for the ones they played because they have fond memories of their youth; will be the superior format [...]

The top games as voted by the users mentioned in Deuce Traveler's opening post.

Spoiler

 

[Mortmal]

That top 3 shows that people are voting for the games they believe are mere prototypes of what came later, which is a shame. At least Ultima Underworld is actually a great game (arguably better than all its successors) and Dark Sun has full party creation and turn-based combat, which gives it an edge over the IE games, but Betrayal at Krondor? WTF people, it's a cute game and I quite enjoyed it, but it doesn't deserve to be neaby the top 5. Having it above Darklands, Pool of Radiance or any Wizardry game is a travesty.

What if the people voting for these games don't share your opinion that they are "mere prototypes"?

Yeah, let's pretend people are voting for what made unique and worth-playing this golden era, instead of the games that feel closer to the late 90's and early 00's times.

You sir wont be member of the prestigious gentlemen circlejerk !
The list is something you can completely expect from the codex , schizophrenic with lot of inconsistencies ,in the end useless, just like the members of their fine assembly. Pool of radiance on top, why ? The first gold box game , but not the best by far, today you will struggle to use the interface and rememorize the spells after each rest, and probably will be quickly bored by the random encounters. Then strangely they vote for the most modern blobber on the list wiz 7 . Then the most modern top down rpg ont he list , dark sun...
I prefer much more felipepe rpg book approach not rating ,not pitting them against each other and describing them year by year. The articles are a bit small, but its bound to happen its already 600 pages.

 

[Butter]

Pool of radiance on top, why ? The first gold box game , but not the best by far, today you will struggle to use the interface and rememorize the spells after each rest, and probably will be quickly bored by the random encounters.

There's something to be said for getting there first. Pool of Radiance has certain shortcomings when compared to subsequent Gold Box games, but it's rather impressive how much SSi got right on their first attempt. That said, things like the Fix command, the inclusion of Paladin and Ranger, and the higher level range (meaning more tools in the MU toolbox) are why I voted for Curse of the Azure Bonds instead. It's a little baffling that the frequent 50-orc random encounters got through PoR testing.

 

[Lady Error]

I am actually baffled that not many people are voting for Realms of Arkania: Star Trail. In my opinion, one of the best RPG's of that era.

 

[dacencora]

[...] a closed vote from 5-10-15 experienced players who lived when these games were released and played a lot of classics; not just 2 of 3 and voted for the ones they played because they have fond memories of their youth; will be the superior format [...]

The top games as voted by the users mentioned in Deuce Traveler's opening post.

Spoiler

Might and Magic II, Might and Magic III, and Might and Magic WoX, awwwww yeah

 

[just]

2 Albion
2 Darklands
2 Star Control 2
2 Wizardy 7
2 Ultima Underworld

 

[mediocrepoet]

I am actually baffled that not many people are voting for Realms of Arkania: Star Trail. In my opinion, one of the best RPG's of that era.

Star Trail was on my longer list that I had to pare down. I expect though that the answer is that Das Schwarze Auge doesn't have the same reach as D&D in most of the world. I had played Star Trail on original release but never heard of DSA until the release of Drakensang for instance. I expect the opposite may be true in Germany?

Edit: fixed spelling. Stupid phone posting.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I disliked Blade of Destiny so much I never bothered with Star Trail.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I disliked Blade of Destiny so much I never bothered with Star Trail.

Yo I hear there are remakes out.

 

[Fowyr]

Pool of radiance on top, why ? The first gold box game , but not the best by far, today you will struggle to use the interface and rememorize the spells after each rest, and probably will be quickly bored by the random encounters.

1) It's a low level AD&D game, where a lucky dice decides some encounters, and others are decided by a tactical cast of simple Sleep spell. Low-level campaign is a pretty interesting beast, and I like it. I still vividly remember the joy of getting Fireball and frying orcs in Sokal Keep.
2)It was a game where you could cast Animate Dead and some of your actions were more gray than in the other Goldboxes. It was one of the most ambitious of Goldboxes. It had Druids and the food, rings of free falling and other strange things. I shit you not. Just open the exe. Mostly it was not implemented, but lucky draw of wyvern's cache table brought you some really strange items.
3)Freedom. Greatest feeling of freedom and exploration. You have cleared Slums, got into Sokal Keep and then you have found that Phlan is not the only place in the game. That it has caves, pyramide, random encounters, Zhentil Keep...
4)Phlan had this vivid feeling of great adventure and being the real city. You really felt that you are liberating it.

 

[flushfire]

Bit late to the party, can I still vote?

3 - betrayal at krondor
2 - wizardry 7
2 - exile 3
2 - daggerfall
1 - ultima 8 (sorry codex)

Also why is Knights of Xentar in the list but Cobra Mission isn't?

 

[dark_savant]

5 - Might and Magic: World of Xeen (New World Computing)
3 - Eye of the Beholder 2: The Legend of Darkmoon (Westwood)
2 - Wizardry 7: Crusaders of the Dark Savant (Sir-Tech)

 

[Fowyr]

3 - Eye of the Beholder 2: The Legend of Darkmoon (Westwood)
2 - Wizardry 7: Crusaders of the Dark Savant (Sir-Tech)

Such a strange vote for someone with your name and avatar.