Vapourware System Shock 3 by OtherSide Entertainment - taken over by Tencent!

[SausageInYourFace]

Not an RPG, move thread to General Gaming please.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

So you think it will be RPG?

poor bastards here

in b4 dumbed down MODERNIZED, REVISED AND REIMAGINED for consoles and mobile

Of course SS2 already MODERNIZED, REVISED AND REIMAGINED the franchise by making it an RPG...

 

[Infinitron]

Misaka Mikoto Warren Spector is a "Creative Advisor" on Underworld. Personally, I doubt he's doing much. We don't know yet who's going to work on this game.

But yes, one of the reasons he left LGS to make Deus Ex is that he didn't like what they were doing with Thief. Though I'm not sure how much better Deus Ex was with some of those things he mentioned there.

 

[Multidirectional]

Finally, a spiritual successor to Bioshock!

 

[an Administrator]

If im new to SS which should i play first? SS1 or SS2?

 

[Ash]

But yes, one of the reasons he left LGS to make Deus Ex is that he didn't like what they were doing with Thief. Though I'm not sure how much better Deus Ex was with some of those things he mentioned there.

Well, you've played them both? I wholly support any internal bickering if it spawns TWO great games...and I prefer Deus Ex personally of course, but I know there's some who hold the opposing opinion.

 

[Junmarko]

Hehe.

 

[Arch-Vile]

If im new to SS which should i play first? SS1 or SS2?

Use your brain, man. Why play SS2 first when SS1 is also an amazing game?

 

[Misaka Mikoto]

Misaka Mikoto Warren Spector is a "consultant" on Underworld. Personally, I doubt he's doing much. We don't know yet who's going to work on this game.

But yes, one of the reasons he left LGS to make Deus Ex is that he didn't like what they were doing with Thief. Though I'm not sure how much better Deus Ex was with some of those things he mentioned there.

Well ... Warren was never part of LGS. His closest relationship was that he was their liaison with Origin/EA when they were making Ultima Underworld and the original System Shock.

Thank goodness, too. The more I learn about his game design philosophy, the more I feel we were lucky to get Deus Ex out of him. And when I hear him talking about floating Red Cross glowies with less than horror ...

Is iconic/abstract representation of characters, power-ups, player rewards, tools, objects, and so on better than realistic/specific representation? In other words, are instantly identifiable floating crosses better as healing items than a med-bot, something the player may or may not be able to identify? Is it compelling to wonder if that guy over there is a good guy or a bad guy? Or is it better to know just by looking at him, so you can plan accordingly? As in so many things, we went with a hybrid approach -- nothing as extreme as floating health restorers, but instantly recognizable good guys, bad guys, rewards, and objects.

In the end, he (or the team as a whole) shrank from that extreme, but even so his design philosophy has been more and more driving what he does the more he’s been able to act with a free hand thanks to his growing degree of celebrity. And the results have been less and less like the things he was earlier involved in. And what a shame that is.

Those systems were designed around the totally valid idea that the computer would resolve actions without any secret (or even non-so-secret) die rolls required. Players would always know, with absolute certainty, based on their character development choices, whether they could accomplish something or not. The trick would be whether they wanted to do something or not, based on an assessment of the likely outcome and the likely consequences (for example, blowing down a door and setting off alarms versus the risk of picking a lock and being caught while doing it). In addition, I thought the tension of standing outside a locked door, not knowing if a guard was going to show up while you picked the lock would provide sufficient excitement. I thought knowing you could leap across a chasm because you had the Jump augmentation at Tech Level 3, opening up new paths through maps that were inaccessible to players without that augmentation, would be good enough to keep players interested.

When Gabe Newell from Valve came down and played our prototype missions, he correctly identified the utter lack of tension in our skill and augmentation use, as written up in the design doc and ably implemented by the coders. The worst was confirmed when Marc LeBlanc, Doug Church, Rob Fermier, and other friends from Looking Glass Studios and Irrational Games played the proto-missions and came to the same conclusions. Actually using skills and augmentations revealed things that merely thinking about them could never have revealed.

We took the criticism, and with it in mind, lead designer Harvey Smith revised the skill and augmentation systems pretty thoroughly, proposing an elegant system of consumable resources and time passage, all tied to skill level. This increased the tension level, provided new rewards, and allowed players to think and make informed decisions. Harvey also proposed a revision to the augmentation system, introducing an energy cost for their use (something I had foolishly rejected earlier on). Again, this gave us the opportunity to hand out items that would replenish energy -- in other words, we instantly had more things to hand out to players as rewards. It also introduced a level of tactical thinking to augmentation use that makes the system work. None of this would have happened without prototype missions and some harsh (but fair) criticism they allowed.

 

[Infinitron]

Well ... Warren was never part of LGS.

Yes and no. He never worked with them in Boston, but I asked the OtherSide guys about it in a Twitch chat earlier this year, and they said he was a Looking Glass employee for a while in the mid-90s. Working from Austin as a kind of one-man "Looking Glass West".

 

[Ash]

Well ... Warren was never part of LGS.

If not, he still had a very tightly-knit relationship with them. Deus Ex's resulting design is very LGS, and that doesn't spawn from nowhere. I think Warren just took issue with how restrictive Thief's scope was, and lets face it, compared to Ultima Underworld or even System Shock it was pretty streamlined.

Ah, Infinitron goes into further detail.

 

[Misaka Mikoto]

Well ... Warren was never part of LGS.

Yes and no. He never worked with them in Boston, but I asked the OtherSide guys about it in a Twitch chat earlier this year, and they said he was a Looking Glass employee for a while in the mid-90s. Working from Austin as a kind of one-man "Looking Glass West".

Sorry, that is indeed what I’m talking about; I should have said he never worked as part of LGS proper, but rather as their outside man on the inside. Thanks for the correction and amplification.

Well ... Warren was never part of LGS.

If not, he still had a very tightly-knit relationship with them. Deus Ex's resulting design is very LGS, and that doesn't spawn from nowhere. I think Warren just took issue with how restrictive Thief's scope was, and lets face it, compared to Ultima Underworld or even System Shock it was pretty streamlined.

I agree, except that watching Warren over the years, as I said, I think we were lucky to get Deus Ex out of him—and I’m not sure but that Deus Ex skewed way more toward Thief than it would have had he had his druthers. Note, for starters, his description of the outside input that made DX more Thiefy.

Anyway, sorry—this isn’t a discussion about WS, or shouldn’t be. I’m cautiously optimistic about SS3, but I wish Doug Church would be involved ...

And if they can retcon Rebecca out in the first five minutes, I’m happy about that. She steps off the escape pod, SHODAN steps off with her and enters the first phone booth she stops at. I don’t know—anything.

Or maybe they’ll simply blaze their own trail for the third game, departing from the previously intended narrative. I suspect they will.

 

[m_s0]

Who is paying the money to develop this?

Kickstarter backers, I bet.

 

[Ash]

Anyway, sorry—this isn’t a discussion about WS, or shouldn’t be. I’m cautiously optimistic about SS3, but I wish Doug Church would be involved ...

A key figure behind the design of such incredible games for sure, but don't forget it was a team effort.

The industry & audience needs you more than ever, LGS. One more giant kick up the backside for gamerkind.

 

[Misaka Mikoto]

Anyway, sorry—this isn’t a discussion about WS, or shouldn’t be. I’m cautiously optimistic about SS3, but I wish Doug Church would be involved ...

A key figure behind the design of such incredible games for sure, but don't forget it was a team effort.

The industry & audience needs you more than ever, LGS. One more giant kick up the backside for gamerkind.

No, no, I agree. It’s just that with SS3 coming and Paul Neurath at its head, I’d love to see Doug’s design sensibility in the mix. Even if only to counterbalance Warren’s!

Heck, I’d like Tim Stellmach, Mark LeBlanc, too—you name them, I want them back. Glad Eric and Terri are almost certainly on board, though.

And you’re right—I have never forgiven Daikatana for putting Eidos in financial straits that left no room for LGS to maneuver. Yes, I know LGS had financial management problems of their own that left them needing that room, but I’d have rather had a Deep Cover, a Thief 3, and a System Shock 3 out of them and Irrational than what the industry has become without them. Irrational lost its way after SS2, and ISA before that.

I view LGS as a necessary foil to the forces that drive the industry, and I think the industry has been sorely feeling their absence all these years. The problem is I don’t know whether we can recover from the current mindset that the industry has created in gamers. Will the LGS approach only ever produce cult games? It (mostly) did then, and I’m curious about what will happen now—if they even manage to capture that same lightning in a bottle again.

 

[Infinitron]

Tim Stellmach has been at OtherSide since the very beginning. He's the lead designer of Underworld.

 

[Misaka Mikoto]

Tim Stellmach has been at OtherSide since the very beginning. He's the lead designer of Underworld.

Right, I mean I hope he’s involved in SS3, too. Underworld has a long way to go yet and I’d love to have an LGS all-star team working on each title in its turn.

As much as I liked Underworld, System Shock is my first love in gaming, and I hope they take the time, and give it the resources, it deserves.

 

[Kingston]

I just came.

That would be amazing if done right.

It won't be, but it could be.

Why do you think Microsoft bought Minecraft?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I just came.

That would be amazing if done right.

It won't be, but it could be.

Why do you think Microsoft bought Minecraft?

I know why they bought it. But its Microsoft, so as usual they'll have a great idea, unavoidably fuck it up somewhere along the way, only for someone else to release it and have a smashing success, while MS will attempt to play catchup for 5 years and ultimately fail.

 

[Ash]

No, no, I agree. It’s just that with SS3 coming and Paul Neurath at its head, I’d love to see Doug’s design sensibility in the mix. Even if only to counterbalance Warren’s!

Heck, I’d like Tim Stellmach, Mark LeBlanc, too—you name them, I want them back. Glad Eric and Terri are almost certainly on board, though.

And you’re right—I have never forgiven Daikatana for putting Eidos in financial straits that left no room for LGS to maneuver. Yes, I know LGS had financial management problems of their own that left them needing that room, but I’d have rather had a Deep Cover, a Thief 3, and a System Shock 3 out of them and Irrational than what the industry has become without them. Irrational lost its way after SS2, and ISA before that.

I view LGS as a necessary foil to the forces that drive the industry, and I think the industry has been sorely feeling their absence all these years. The problem is I don’t know whether we can recover from the current mindset that the industry has created in gamers. Will the LGS approach only ever produce cult games? It (mostly) did then, and I’m curious about what will happen now—if they even manage to capture that same lightning in a bottle again.

Well said. No disagreement here at all.

I think the success of Fallout: New Vegas and even Deus Ex: Human Revolution on both PC and consoles proved that a fully-fledged Immersive Sim is viable. Sure, both aren't the finest examples, but they aren't too far removed.
It's simply down to one horrible, evil, disgusting thing really: marketing. Or striking it lucky with a series of events that leads to insane word of mouth fanfare. I know I'd take part in the latter if it was the second coming.

 

[Daedalos]

This is probably gonna be complete dumbed down console piece of flaming shit.

But let's see.

 

[m_s0]

This is probably gonna be complete dumbed down console piece of flaming shit.

But let's see. What has the developer done before?

System Shock

You really can't reproduce the circumstances that gave us Looking Glass and their games. Same thing goes for Spector's Ion Storm and Deus Ex. Crazy times.

Wouldn't mind Otherside trying, though.

They should bring Doug Church over. He's wasting his time at Valve.

 

[Ulminati]

System shock died with looking glass.

 

[Misaka Mikoto]

No, no, I agree. It’s just that with SS3 coming and Paul Neurath at its head, I’d love to see Doug’s design sensibility in the mix. Even if only to counterbalance Warren’s!

Heck, I’d like Tim Stellmach, Mark LeBlanc, too—you name them, I want them back. Glad Eric and Terri are almost certainly on board, though.

And you’re right—I have never forgiven Daikatana for putting Eidos in financial straits that left no room for LGS to maneuver. Yes, I know LGS had financial management problems of their own that left them needing that room, but I’d have rather had a Deep Cover, a Thief 3, and a System Shock 3 out of them and Irrational than what the industry has become without them. Irrational lost its way after SS2, and ISA before that.

I view LGS as a necessary foil to the forces that drive the industry, and I think the industry has been sorely feeling their absence all these years. The problem is I don’t know whether we can recover from the current mindset that the industry has created in gamers. Will the LGS approach only ever produce cult games? It (mostly) did then, and I’m curious about what will happen now—if they even manage to capture that same lightning in a bottle again.

Well said. No disagreement here at all.

I think the succees of Fallout: New Vegas and even Deus Ex: Human Revolution on both PC and consoles proved that a fully-fledged Immersive Sim is viable. Sure, both aren't the finest examples, but they aren't too far removed.

I haven’t played NV, and HR was good but not what I expect out of an intended DX sequel. But I do see your point.

My biggest complaint about HR (though it wasn’t my only one) was that last mission. Why, why, why a run-and-gun zombie apocalypse right at the end? We should have been trying to prevent it, not trying to survive it. It would have loved for all those people to have been guards to knock out, workers to sneak past, intelligent creatures running intelligent systems and me working against time. I would have liked to sneak, hack, and incapacitate my way through a final mission inhabited by intelligent opponents in a living, working environment.

Instead, the game threw zombies at me, and it was quicker and less annoying to simply jump from the top straight down to the bottom and push a button to end it.

I had a lot of problems with HR—the How Can I Help You, Ma’am? approach to side quests that so many RPGs suffer from—but the last mission was the biggest. Overall, though, the quests were too linear for me, as if they were trying to recapture that lightning but not quite getting it. Even so it was much, much better than what we’ve been getting of late.

That said, my kids are growing up playing System Shock, Thief, and Gothic.

 

[Infinitron]

This probably would done better on Kickstarter than Underworld. At least they can use Underworld's code to make it an even better game.