Vapourware Sui Generis + Exanima Early Access

[Cohesion]

Is there something like a roadmap for this game?

It's like star citizen but without gibs for jpgs. Maybe your grandchildren will play this game, just a few micro issues remaining!

 

[Technomancer]

Is there something like a roadmap for this game?

Best one we have.

our roadmap for 1.0 now is basically force, ranged, a few bits and bobs and the rest is just content
this next one hopefully won't take too long, the new map just needs some more props at this point, all the environment is done (and it's quite a complex one)
0.9 force thaum + new area
0.95 extra role stuff + new area
1.0 ranged combat + final area

 

[agris]

That crystal material. The weapon is obviously just for demonstration, it was not meant for it.

velvet 2.0

 

[Technomancer]

velvet 2.0

It would be, if he said he wasn't really happy with it, didn't happen! Oh god, pray it didn't happen...

Though I'm hoping to see glassy stuff used more than in just bottles. Something on new level. They say its not a combat focused level but more about exploration. And with how many times Madoc mentioned assets for it, I expect to see something special.

 

[agris]

demonic / planar, or generally non-corporeal creatures could have a semi-plausible reason to require this material to damage them. non-corporeal also gets around the obvious critique that striking any hard surface should shatter it

 

[Technomancer]

demonic / planar, or generally non-corporeal creatures could have a semi-plausible reason to require this material to damage them. non-corporeal also gets around the obvious critique that striking any hard surface should shatter it

I thought ghosts were confirmed since we had some spectral semi-invisible foes in KS videos. Turns out it was a Light thaumer bending light. Mind thaumaturges do have a projection spell that makes you "spirit-walk" and that looks like a ghost but so far its a bit on the weaker side due to lack of direct-harm options in mind school (you can still cast while ghosting I think). Heard there will be a ghost+force form though.

 

[Technomancer]

Madoc randomly shared a bit of development thoughts. Fairly rare for him to do long posts like these in the chat.

 

[Aemar]

TL;DR version: development hell.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Nit-picking? I've seen 1 consistent criticism of this game, and it's not about minutiae. Their Kickstarter was 11 years ago, and they still haven't released features and content that were shown in their pitch videos. That's a valid criticism of project management, not a nit-pick. Furthermore, this game is aptly titled Sui Generis. It's in a class of its own. The only comparisons I've ever seen made are Diablo 1 and Die by the Sword. Those references are generally affectionally made. This guy is clearly brilliant, but he needs a manager. Someone that can ground him.

 

[Technomancer]

Nit-picking? I've seen 1 consistent criticism of this game, and it's not about minutiae. Their Kickstarter was 11 years ago, and they still haven't released features and content that were shown in their pitch videos. That's a valid criticism of project management, not a nit-pick

He is referring to immediate reaction on kickstarter videos back in 2012. When devs first opened their forums to public. Which was why SG got frozen and focus shifted on Exanima instead. Madoc thought that people would not accept rough and janky SG they realistically could deliver at the time.

he needs a manager. Someone that can ground him.

Would do nothing good. Game would release faster. Massively scaled down, with more of the same generic stuff found everywhere else. I would rather wait twenty years and play something unique, rather than something I already saw, tomorrow.

 

[Lyre Mors]

lol dude is whining about nitpicking.

Nearly 9 years in early access. Talk about cognitive dissonance. If I had the ability to erase memories from my mind, this game would certainly be on the list. Everything about it is irritating to me. I should really just ignore this thread at this point.

 

[Lyre Mors]

Perfect is enemy of the Good.

Matador said it best here.

That is one well-done zombie

Are you talking about the screenshot or the game itself?

I'd almost rather they just announce the death of the project instead of continuing down this insane path.

(The new quoting system on this website is shit and the reason I had to double-post)

 

[Technomancer]

Everything about it is irritating to me.

Jinn will you play Exanima when it hits 1.0 or you don't care much for it?

 

[Modron]

(The new quoting system on this website is shit and the reason I had to double-post)

Hit the brackets on the right to turn off bbcode if quote formating is messing with your efforts.

 

[Lyre Mors]

@Jinn will you play Exanima when it hits 1.0 or you don't care much for it?

I would absolutely play the fabled v1.0 if it is ever somehow manifested into existence. All I want is a completed campaign with a full, well-developed dungeon, fun progression, and challenging gameplay. It's what I paid for 8 years ago.

 

[Technomancer]

I would absolutely play the fabled v1.0 if it is ever somehow manifested into existence.

9.0 is just around the corner so closer every time. Though I still expect last two big updates taking a few years more.

 

[Lyre Mors]

Though I still expect last two big updates taking a few years more.

And this is incredibly insane. Considering how things go with this development, I'd add at least a year or two on top that as well.

So maybe, maybe 2026-2027? Maaaaybe.

 

[Alienman]

Are you talking about the screenshot or the game itself?

The crispy zombie picture, but I get what you mean

 

[Kruyurk]

Game would release faster. Massively scaled down, same generic stuff as everywhere else. I would rather wait twenty years and play something unique, rather than something I already saw, tomorrow.

I disagree. The game has had a lot of innovative and enjoyable systems that could make a complete and original experience for years now. If they had stopped focusing on adding and refining systems a few years ago and instead focused on building enough content for a full game experience, a very good game could be released by now. Maybe not the Best Game Ever, but an excellent one. There have been enough systems in the game to have something of the structure of Dark Souls: an action-RPG with deep combat and exploration but simpler interactions with NPCs. There is no need for an ultra deep NPC interaction system or fully simulated economy or whatnot for a complete experience. As much as I love Exanima, I don't want to wait 20 years for a full game of the scope of SG.

Always using the cases of nitpicking as an excuse for feature creep does not seem honest. For any game there will always be people asking for more. And if you do a game that is immersive and simulates a lot, there will always be people asking for more immersive graphical fidelity and deeper simulation.

I remember reading that the first STALKER was in development hell and an american manager from outside the studio came to save the project. The end product is maybe not the dream vision the developers had, but at least it released, and what survived of this idealized vision was enough to make an excellent game.
It is similar for Kenshi, when you play the game for a while you realize that many parts of the game could be expanded, and you get the sense that what is in the game is just a reduced materialized portion of a much bigger dream. But again, what is there is enough for an excellent game.
And after this, you can build upon this first game to make an even better one (hopefully), where you can put even more of your idealized vision into the actual game.

So I wish there were a manager that could counterbalance the perfectionism and idealism of Madoc.
There is also the possibility of expanding the game post release with DLCs/expansions. And don't give me the "DLCs are always pure evil" bullshit, DLCs by honest developers are fine.

I am still overall hopeful and Exanima is a game I deeply care for, but seeing the new glass material and procedural zombie skin decay bullshit makes me think that this feature creep is just a weird sense of procrastination. Adding new stuff is surely easier than tying the existent stuff together to get the game into a coherent releasable state (even if I have no doubt that what Madoc does is very complicated).

 

[Technomancer]

I remember reading that the first STALKER was in development hell and an american manager from outside the studio came to save the project. The end product is maybe not the dream vision the developers had, but at least it released, and what survived of this idealized vision was enough to make an excellent game.

Funny you mentioned that game. I loved S.T.A.L.K.E.R. back in the day. Was an uber fan when it released. But then I discovered the game it was meant to be. The vast amount of cut content resting in the mass grave of removed things and dead dreams. And I despaired because I knew I would never play that. Was fascinated with their development history for years. Dreamed of ways for things to come back. And naturally, it never happened, some minor features were added in later games, but as time showed, overwhelming majority of these ideas or engine features were scrapped for good, never again to resurface in any sequel game.

And despite liking Kenshi as well, all I could think about when honey moon phase was over is how much the game was unfinished, how rough it was and what a terrible shame it was that they moved on to game 2 instead of completing one first (originally they wanted to backport features to game 1, but then they moved to Unreal from Ogre which killed this idea).

It is also amusing that both of these games shared one core aspect with Sui Generis in their infancy, aspect they had to let go to see the light - advanced AI and immersive world simulation. Both were meant to be living games where player is only one part of it. With Stalker NPCs were meant to compete with the player in finishing the game, using PDA chat, looting anomalies, driving cars, doing quests etc. With Kenshi Chris attempted to build an "honest" game economy with food chain and real supply and demand, of every NPC living by the same rules. With roaming armies dragging food carts with them. With outbreaks of famine if player destroyed farms. He believed it was never done because there never was someone dedicated and independent enough to attempt it. But in the end he had to give up on it anyway, introducing usual gamey hacks like disabling hunger for many NPCs and making game world economy just for show like in every other game. He realized the complexity of original vision and that he could not support it. Many smaller fun features followed suit, like animal taming and wall climbing (if that was in game, I am sure smuggling would be less of a joke and stealing things would not trivialize the game because of properly balanced difficulty).

So I am very much on the opposite side, I just don't mind waiting because seeing buried ambition and unfulfilled potential kills my soul, I get way too hung up on something that could've been, to the point that is lessens my enjoyment of actual released game. As for Exanima, I discovered the game recently enough for the wait to not become agonizing just yet. Plus there are other games with long update cycles I enjoy playing, like Starsector.

There is also the possibility of expanding the game post release with DLCs/expansions. And don't give me the "DLCs are always pure evil" bullshit, DLCs by honest developers are fine.

He mentioned the possibility of it, but only for SG. And it would not be usual modern DLCs, but more of old school expansions, aka addons.

I am still overall hopeful and Exanima is a game I deeply care for, but seeing the new glass material and procedural zombie skin decay bullshit makes me think that this feature creep is just a weird sense of procrastination.

Crystal material was created for new level, it doesn't seem like it took a long time to do because it was never mentioned or teased before, just shown already done. Rotten zombies are at this point several years old. Still not in the game precisely because a flavour thing like that is not essential and there is more important work to be done.

even if I have no doubt that what Madoc does is very complicated

Not only that there is also a matter of limited man power and resources, same as with every indie. I recently learned that there are only 3 developers working on the game full time, the rest are part-timers. Which also is a factor in development and its speed. For example, current update was delayed by several weeks because one team member had family issues that needed to be resolved and they couldn't do any work that was critical to further progress.

 

[Aemar]

Bare Mettle, a perfect example of game dev company overlooking much of the business aspects in favour of creative autistic pursuits. I can understand Evans' approach to this project though, the man is in a league with Pierre Begue and their likes.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

While I can respect artistic integrity and fidelity to a Magnum Opus, dreaming for what could be is no different than dreaming for what could have been. Neither exist. We just tell ourselves lies about time in holding hope.

I am a PM professionally, just in a different industry. I can tell you that a sub-optimal reality is preferable to idealized nothing. Especially at the expense of your life. In the same way that Grimiore is irrelevant outside of the RPG Codex because it took too long, Sui Generis might also be. Releasing the finest video game 2009 has to offer in 2030 could relegate his efforts to nothing.

 

[Kruyurk]

So I am very much on the opposite side, I just don't mind waiting because seeing buried ambition and unfulfilled potential kills my soul, I get way too hung up on something that could've been, to the point that is lessens my enjoyment of actual released game.

I respect your perspective, but I still disagree and I think there is an underlying delusion.
You obviously care a lot about Exanima, but discovering a released game and ending up falling in love with it, despite the flaws, is not the same as following the development of a game and hoping that it will match your idealized expectations. It feels like you are on the same drug as Madoc, just on the passenger seat rather than the driver.
It is just the tale of Icarus, of course you aim for greatness and perfection, but you need to be aware that reaching it is impossible. And being a tiny bit disappointed is part of life, you need to accept it. I would rather have an amazing flawed game to play than an unfinished game.
The saddest part is that they had the correct idea of starting with Exanima and it's reduced scope, but somehow this ended up infected by feature creep, and has been in early access for more than eight years now.
I don't want to be rude with you, but for both the developers and the people following the development really close, this whole situation does not feel healthy.

 

[thesecret1]

You guys are overreacting, so what if he takes a long while? The bigger issue I see is that instead of focusing on deep economic simulation, intelligent NPCs with needs and goals, or any number of other super cool things, they're wasting time with velvet simulation and shit of that sort.

 

[Technomancer]

You obviously care a lot about Exanima, but discovering a released game and ending up falling in love with it, despite the flaws, is not the same as following the development of a game and hoping that it will match your idealized expectations. It feels like you are on the same drug as Madoc, just on the passenger seat rather than the driver.

Yeah perhaps so, passenger seems apt, though maybe pedestrian watching from the sidelines is more accurate since unlike any passenger I don't care where or how fast he drives as long as its forward. And I am not really hoping. Exanima is already ideal in my eyes, I see few things I don't like in it beyond long dev time and I admire this particular sports car design. I have no worries, I don't believe Madoc will somehow fuck the game in future updates for me to hate or won't finish it so close to the line. For me its basically a done deal and I don't see any risks. SG though...well that I don't see as much of anything yet. Its light years away and first I have to see "Role system" implemented in Exanima to base my expectations from. Because this feature is core to everything in that game. I have to see it working to believe innovative RPG approach they described in KS is viable.

And being a tiny bit disappointed is part of life, you need to accept it.

Ha, little disappointment I have stems from * even more * autistic ideas and details I want it to have and I know it won't. Understanding they are pointless to voice I never did though!

The saddest part is that they had the correct idea of starting with Exanima and it's reduced scope, but somehow this ended up infected by feature creep, and has been in early access for more than eight years now.

At first Exanima was supposed to be tiny indeed. But they spent so much time just refining the gameplay and trying to solve drunk fighting feel from prototypes that in the end it seems they decided to just go all the way.

As Madoc said it:

originally exanima was supposed to have 8 smallish levels, using only 2-3 different tilesets, no arena, no terrain features or anything. it octupled in scope. if we had stuck to our original plans it would have been finished long ago

I don't want to be rude with you, but for both the developers and the people following the development really close, this whole situation does not feel healthy.

You weren't so far, respecting different POV is opposite of rude. From my side of things I don't get mad at people who are not liking how development goes. Valid opinions to have, especially for those who backed original kickstarter pitch.