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Starsector - RT 2D indie space goodness

Joined
Dec 24, 2018
Messages
1,898
I've never really been around in Starsector at the same time as when a hotfix is released, do patches require you to start new games? Definitely a few bugs in current release as I've ran into one in the Pilgrims' Path quest chain.
I did not encounter any issues updating to one of the recent hotfixes on an active run. That doesn't mean it didn't cause subtle issues that I don't know about, just that it doesn't obviously and openly break a save.
 
Joined
Nov 29, 2016
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Latest hotfix:
-Retribution is now 35 DP, ok, cool
-Front Pegasus missile slots reduced to medium

Butthurt comments in the official forums seemed to have caused Alex to reconsider the change, but not until 0.96.1 (ie a few decades from now) lmao. Given that I don't have an account on that site I in turn will post my butthurt here.

Pegasus was undoubtedly a ridiculous ship mostly due to its ship system (and personally I think its really silly that it has a higher cruise speed over the conquest battlecruiser, regardless of the latter's maneuvering jets ultimately making it a nimbler and faster ship, the pegasus is not exactly lacking for advantages over other capitals.) But now its has the total missile capacity of a conquest with higher missile DPS and worse sustain. I enjoyed the build variety of x4 large slots but if you are giving me x2 meds and x2 larges I am going to go with 2 harpoon pods and 2 squalls every single time - there is literally no other kinetic+HE combination matched to anywhere close to 2500 range. I suppose you could run dragonfires in the front slots but that exarcerbates the ammo issue I will go over in the below paragraph. With the previous version of the ship, you had much more variety with torpedo builds, Hydra+Dragonfire generalist DEM spam, quad hurricanes, squall+hurricanes, or my favorite - Hydra+Hurricane MIRV variety pack.

Another issue is that the sustainability of the ship, especially if you are trying to come up with missile loadouts designed to fire in tandem, is going to be severely limited by the poor ammo capacity of medium missiles. I mean sustainability is supposed to be its weak point but the difference between, say, harpoon pods (3 volleys w/o EMR) and hurricanes (10 shots w/o EMR) is insane - and ironically makes me far more sparse with missile use on the pegasus vs when I am piloting a conquest, since the pegasus does not have a particularly impressive fallback arsenal after its missiles run dry.

I generally love the balance and design of this game so I dislike substantively modding it out of principle (get tempted to change 1 small thing and then you start autistically changing half the game instead of playing it, etc) but I am sort of contemplating figuring out how to mod the original x4 large missile slot version of the Pegasus back in, with 35-40 top speed, and a nerfed version of Fast Missile Racks that can only store 1 charge. Not sure why Alex-sama decided to reduce this ship's most unique strength instead of first nerfing its inexplicably high cruise speed (meaningful nerf since otherwise its kiting ability with 2500 range missiles is kind of insane) and braindead spam ability. An OP decrease also feels like a good idea (pegasus' OP bloat exacerbated by downgraded mounts, of course) but I don't have a good head for balancing OP values.

On a related note, does anyone know why gazers exist? I could see them being useful as a low-damage 2k range MRM for fire support, but at the range of sabots and torpedoes, what could possibly be the point? The advantage of DEM is that they are harder to intercept, but that hardly matters in balls-deep range at which the sabots are deployed, typically entering their second stage behind the safety of your shields.

And here I go, jumping from tweaking Pegasus to DEM balancing and my current campaign fleet doesn't even have access to either l m a o (though I did plenty of fucking around with both via console commands)
 
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Jonathan "Zee Nekomimi

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Just open the files and change the value back related to the launcher. I had issues with my computer and need to reinstall the game. But it should be something like this on the struture.
data\hulls\Pegasus.ship
 
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1,832
Yeah I implemented all the changes I wanted last night, just figuring out how to make it into a mod instead of changing core game data. Might throw it up here if someone wants it.

Fast missile racks: reduces charges to 1 (was 3; ) reduced recharge rate to 0.06 (was 0.10)
Pegasus: reduced top speed to 35 (was 50; ) reverted size of front missile hardpoints to Large; decreased OP to 350 (was 365)
Vigilance: reduced deployment points, supplies to recover, supplies/m to 4 (was 5)
Gazer DEM: now an MRM with a range of 2000 (was: 1200)
Gorgon DEM: raised damage to 1000 (was: 800)
Dragonfire DEM: increased ammo capacity to 3 (was 2)
Dragonfire DEM Pod: increased ammo capacity to 8 (was 5)
Hydra MDEM: decreased ammo capacity to 12 (was 15)

Rationale for tweaks:

I felt comfortable gutting the system itself because, besides the pegasus, it is found on auxillary ships as a crutch to give them extra firepower. So there is no combat ship besides pegasus (OP as stated) and Vigilance that relies on this system, the rest have other utility and are not crippled by the nerf of the system. The Vigilance I dropped to 4 DP as a result.

I think the combination of speed+DP reductions for the Pegasus and the FMR nerf makes it quite vulnerable to frigates and even destroyers when unsupported, due to its lackluster PD coverage - tested against FP150-200 persean league fleets and was repeatedly outflanked by frigates, whereas before I could compensate for absence of PD by spamming FMR to destroy everything around me, now I could neither do that nor disengage as easily due to 35 top speed, as the surrounding enemies drove my flux up.

There is still very little that can be done about spamming 8 hurricane or dragonfire shots against, say, cruisers in quick succession. But that's a very inefficient loadout against frigates and destroyers, so if the pegasus can be built to be a dedicated cruiser/capital crusher in the same way the retribution is a dedicated frigate/destroyer crusher, I feel like that's fair. Although, if I had to guess, Alex will probably come up with a more elegant replacement for the ship system that does not nerf FMR game-wide.

The small/medium DEMs were generally underwhelming - especially considering they are (at times very dubious) sidegrades at +1OP cost over the conventional missiles - hence the buffs. I think the range increase for the Gazer is pretty self-explanatory, it now functions as a poor man's squall, and a sensible fire-support option to stick on the vigilance. I find it hard to justify its use at a lower range due to its pitiful DPS. The Gorgon, meanwhile, is given slightly more bite, but is still half as effective as a gazer/sabot against shields, and deals 50% less damage against armor compared to a harpoon. But at least now it sits more firmly in its niche as a reliable, generalist short-ranged missile.

The Dragonfires are now sort of a medium-slot, premium (and really expensive, OP-wise!) atropos equivalent since with +1 shots they now deal as much damage in total as all 12 harpoon pod shots - in energy instead of HE, of course - and are less vulnerable to PD, at the expense of range and efficiency. Range difference is only 500, granted, but since the atropos were cheaper than small harpoons, whereas the dragonfire torps are more expensive than harpoon pods, I think the result is fine. Large Dragonfire Pods get a proportional ammo increase to help them compete against the hurricanes, while remaining the most expensive and least efficient guided hull-killer in the large slot.

Hydras, on the other hand, I thought were overtunned - they tear apart smaller hulls and deal the equivalent of a dragonfire torpedo's damage to shields, while also being good at saturating the field and drawing enemy PD away from heavier hitters. 15 (or 30 or 45 with EMR+skills, ofc) shots of that gave the likes of gryphon or pegasus way more generalist, sustained firepower than they deserved.

I also thought considered changing up the dumbfire torpedoes in light of the dragonfire pod buff but decided against it, they remain very powerful in their own niches, and besides the tweaking fever has to stop at some point.
 
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Joined
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Messages
1,832
https://anonfiles.com/0al681raz2/LithiumTweaksV2_7z

v1:

Fast missile racks: reduces charges to 1 (was 3; ) reduced recharge rate to 0.06 (was 0.10)
Pegasus: reduced top speed to 35 (was 50; ) reverted size of front missile hardpoints to Large; decreased OP to 350 (was 365)
Vigilance: reduced deployment points, supplies to recover, supplies/m to 4 (was 5)
Gazer DEM: now an MRM with a range of 2000 (was: 1200)
Gorgon DEM: raised damage to 1000 (was: 800)
Dragonfire DEM: increased ammo capacity to 3 (was 2)
Dragonfire DEM Pod: increased ammo capacity to 8 (was 5)
Hydra MDEM: decreased ammo capacity to 12 (was 15)

v2:

Fast missile racks: rolled back all changes
Added Complex Missile Loader: equivalent to Fast Missile Racks with only 1 max charge and 0.06 recharge rate.
Pegasus: now uses Complex Missile Loader instead of Fast Missile Racks
Vigilance: rolled back all changes
Gazer DEM: doubled flight time (otherwise range increase was moot l m a o; ) lowered kinetic damage to 75/s, 750 total (was 100/s, 1000 total; ) increased delay to 14s (was 10s)

Rationale:

Figured out how to add and apply a new ship system, so went ahead and did that - FMR is preserved, only Pegasus' ship system has been nerfed. Vigilance is back to where it was, I am trying to fuck with as few things as possible here.

I forgot to change the Gazer's flight time in V1, so I roughly doubled it so that it can take consistently take advantage of its increased range. However, reintroduction of FMR's former glory did make me nerf the gazer so that, for instance, a Gazer Pod would not outperform the larger Squall when spammed 4 times via FMR. I additionally decreased the rate of fire to prevent overlapping gazer volleys. Though it is weaker than before, I think it is in a good place - a more reliable, lower impact kinetic alternative to the pilum or salamander, good for spamming from backline missile ships (gryphon with dragonfire pod + mass gazers is a decent and interesting alternative to the ol' reliable squall + mass harpoons,) slowing down incoming AI by forcing their shields up from a long distance, but can also be used to good effect on ships with a consistent damage output (try it on a sunder with HIL+double gravitons!)
 

Modron

Arcane
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
11,113
At least I didn't accidently leave my nude skins in the .zip like I did for my shitty little witcher 3 mod compilation some years back
Is that how better vaginas ended up in the Witcher 3 remastered edition or whatever they called that previous patch a year back?
 
Joined
Nov 29, 2016
Messages
1,832
Lmao, I heard about that, and it would not surprise me. I think the one I left in was "new vaginas" (not to be confused with "vaginas: enhanced edition")

Anyway the thing about Starsector is that the game for the most part has better design and balance than 90% of other shit out there. The real dream is bitching at Alex on the forums until he fixes whatever you don't like, and then you don't even have to mod anything.

Incidentally, I posted my DEM and Pegasus suggestions on his forum and he has since confirmed that he is leaning towards reverting the Pegasus back to x4 Large Missile slots, in exchange for other nerfs which incorporate my suggestion of 35 top speed.

I think this proves that autism CAN save the day and that we should ALL stop taking our anti-psychotic medication more often.
 

Jonathan "Zee Nekomimi

Hoarder of loli kats./ Funny ^._.^= ∫
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1683318964101716.png

this u now
 
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Nov 29, 2016
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Yo combat this version is really spectacular. It was always great, of course, but the factions really came into their own this update.

Use console commands to spawn different factions fleets and you will see what I mean:

The Hegemony fights like an armored fist, often screening heavy cruisers with nimbler frigates and militarized auxiliaries - feels almost like fighting a beehive, the cruisers being the hive, the frigates maintaining cohesion around them being the bees ofc.

Persean League is something else, as they will screen you out by spamming their directed energy munitions in lieu of using traditional bombers (which they forego entirely, only fielding interceptors for PD.) It feels like trying to fight your way through a phalanx of lasers, you have to be daring to close distance but careful enough not to overextend.

Tri-Tach benefits greatly from phase-ship AI reworks and you will

Pirates and Luddic Path are fun as always. I haven't fought the Path much in previous update, but they feel very different from pirates - arghhh mateys are at least somewhat organized, whereas Luddic Path will send fucking SO kites with machine guns and hammer torpedoes to shoot your destroyers in the face before bailing the second guns are brought to bear against them.

Man this game continues to be such a fun sandbox for building your own little space fleet and testing its mettle against all these factions and their different doctrines. Its also a rare example of a game that has way too many things going for it than it has any right too - besides possibly having the best combat AI in the genre, the writing is also really really good and quite original on top of it (hard-ish sci-fi with great atmosphere and genuine moments of cosmic dread, much more in the vein of, say, Expanse than Star Wars etc) I've read that the late game and colony stuff is still undercooked but most of the game systems are so fucking good.

I basically ended up rolling back most of my DEM changes. I am not some sort of anti-modding Luddite, clearly, but it is always a little bizarre to me to see people install a million waifu factions with teleporting invisible "I'm gonna fuck you in the ass" ships and 30 versions of the same weapon, when the vanilla arsenal is soo fucking tight and had 10 years of balancing and thought put into it. I consider the ship roster more or less complete this update, with every faction getting their own capital ships.
 
Joined
Dec 24, 2018
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I've read that the late game and colony stuff is still undercooked but most of the game systems are so fucking good.
It's true; they are pretty sparse, still. Alex has been reluctant / opposed to adding 4X / Grand Strategy style elements to the game (don't ask me for a source, my source is "I remember reading it somewhere") because he wants it to be focused on the space battles, but I think he's realizing the game kind of needs them even if it's not a thing he personally likes. The new colony threat system, for example - colonies were originally meant to just be money printers to fund fleets so you could have space battles, so the mechanics around colony threats were absurdly simple. Now we have something more engaging, which signals to me that Alex is acknowledging the game does need more in the way of colony interaction and deeper systems there. I'm hoping this is a trajectory we'll continue on, in terms of faction diplomacy and stuff (i.e. replacing the minor expeditions with actual periods of war you can enter, major enemy fleets that add real endgame challenges and can also fuck up your colonies really badly if you don't defeat them, that sort of thing), but time will tell.
 

tindrli

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THe only thing that i really hate in this game is the FACT that i really suck in manual combat. abismal performance i show. just cant keep flux levels optimal as AI do. not even close..
 

oasis789

Arcane
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
405
I've read that the late game and colony stuff is still undercooked but most of the game systems are so fucking good.
It's true; they are pretty sparse, still. Alex has been reluctant / opposed to adding 4X / Grand Strategy style elements to the game (don't ask me for a source, my source is "I remember reading it somewhere") because he wants it to be focused on the space battles, but I think he's realizing the game kind of needs them even if it's not a thing he personally likes. The new colony threat system, for example - colonies were originally meant to just be money printers to fund fleets so you could have space battles, so the mechanics around colony threats were absurdly simple. Now we have something more engaging, which signals to me that Alex is acknowledging the game does need more in the way of colony interaction and deeper systems there. I'm hoping this is a trajectory we'll continue on, in terms of faction diplomacy and stuff (i.e. replacing the minor expeditions with actual periods of war you can enter, major enemy fleets that add real endgame challenges and can also fuck up your colonies really badly if you don't defeat them, that sort of thing), but time will tell.
I don't think the game needs 4X and I don't think someone who doesn't like 4X can do it well. What the game needs is more emergence, more living universe simulation. To the extent that means some kind of 4X macro level stuff going on in the background
 
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1,832
I've read that the late game and colony stuff is still undercooked but most of the game systems are so fucking good.
It's true; they are pretty sparse, still. Alex has been reluctant / opposed to adding 4X / Grand Strategy style elements to the game (don't ask me for a source, my source is "I remember reading it somewhere") because he wants it to be focused on the space battles, but I think he's realizing the game kind of needs them even if it's not a thing he personally likes. The new colony threat system, for example - colonies were originally meant to just be money printers to fund fleets so you could have space battles, so the mechanics around colony threats were absurdly simple. Now we have something more engaging, which signals to me that Alex is acknowledging the game does need more in the way of colony interaction and deeper systems there. I'm hoping this is a trajectory we'll continue on, in terms of faction diplomacy and stuff (i.e. replacing the minor expeditions with actual periods of war you can enter, major enemy fleets that add real endgame challenges and can also fuck up your colonies really badly if you don't defeat them, that sort of thing), but time will tell.
Yeah, the Hostile Activity event system is a step forward - but I think Alex's reluctance to add to the grand strategy / multi-fleet management stuff or a dynamic political simulation is more of a matter of priorities and reluctance to make promises. Development speed is glacial and, again, until this update the factions weren't even fleshed out mechanically, there was barely any story content before version... 0.9?

Now that most of the mechanics are in a good place, hopefully he can focus on more of the late game / questing / politicking aspects. But I think he always intended to implement some sort of greater strategy element at some point - that grayed out "command" tab is there for a reason, after all.

I actually don't really like the random "political simulations" of Mount & Blade or Nexerlin, and I don't think Starsector will go into that direction necessarily, being more of an RPG where its important that, for instance, certain factions own certain quest locations. The event system is promising for simulating, for example, the take-over of a certain star system, or an inter-faction war effort, with player participation - instead of random planets changing hands due to the random decisions of AI fleets, maybe you gain points on the event track when you hunt enemy faction fleets, or when allied faction fleets successfully blockade the opposing planets and so on, until you reach a breakthrough and the war ends to your faction's benefit. But I am just brainstorming here, who knows which direction Alex is going to take things next.

But a model I'd like to see is something like the story campaign in Mount & Blade: Viking Conquest. There are emergent and dynamic elements but a lot of it is reigned in by story parameters, and its not a broken ant farm simulations with retarded political AI making horrendous decisions as is the case in pretty much every game of this type.

THe only thing that i really hate in this game is the FACT that i really suck in manual combat. abismal performance i show. just cant keep flux levels optimal as AI do. not even close..

Its a bit like riding a bike, I bounced off the game for years and once I figured out the flux game, combat stopped being frustrating. The rule of thumb that works for most ships is simply to make sure your flux dissipation is equal to or slightly exceeding the [sum of your non-PD weapon flux/s] + [shield flux/s]. There is a bit more to it than that - making sure you have a mix of damage types available to your ship (prioritize kinetics for sustained damage,) making sure your firing groups are set up correctly and weapons don't have horrendous range mismatches, and so on. But flux management is probably the most important part of the whole equation.
 
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1,832
man i keep accidently eating those little stickers that come on apples and pears and stuff, i feel fucking retarded, you think eating those stickers is gonna make me more retarded maybe
 
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Also, some ships are just easier to pilot than others. Frigates might require more actual "piloting skill" so to speak, whereas using big fuck-off capitals is more about making sure you are covering the right flank, and that the enemy is within your overlapping firing arcs, and so on. By the way this mod is a must have for piloting larger ships - allows you to toggle on the firing arcs of weapon groups you are not currently using, crucial for making sure that the enemy is in auto-fire range of all of your different weapon systems: https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13535.0

Its out of date but works on the current version as long as you edit the mod_info.json, and change this line to:
"gameVersion":"0.96a-RC7",

But if your difficulties lie in piloting itself, and not in building viable ship loadouts and fleet compositions, the easiest fix is simply to put your ship on auto-pilot. The AI in this game is THIS FUCKING GOOD - but only if you set them up with reasonable loadouts, correct weapon groups, and so on.
 

Modron

Arcane
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
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The AI in this game is THIS FUCKING GOOD
When directly fighting 1v1 sure. You still have to manage your fleet so that it arrives together at the firing line instead of your faster ships going all Leroy Jenkins and getting vaporized by the combined might of every enemy focusing on them. Also you do have to order them to retreat from fights they are positioning themselves to get overrun in.
 
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A lot of it depends on the loadouts you give them and ship personalities. Generally you want your frigates to go after objectives, harass the enemy, or escort/screen for larger ships. Alternatively, a single rally point is often the only order you need. But if you give all of your lashers a bunch of short-ranged machine guns and no further instructions, then sure, they will be super aggressive as they will have to close range to deal any damage.

But the battle lines in the game form very naturally, as the ships consider the relative flux levels of not only themselves and their targets, but nearby allies as well. Escorts will actively reposition themselves to clear the firing arcs of the escorted ship while engaging hostiles approaching on their flanks. Individual ships will act more aggressively at a flux or numerical advantage, but begin to pull back and falter when at disadvantage, which sometimes leads to to very organic break-throughs and flank collapses. There is a physical push-and-pull to combat that, just as a random example, even total war games have long given up simulating as they instead rely on scripted morale checks to see which side loses ground. I have a hard time thinking of another game with line battles where the AI of individual ships is this dynamic and generally competent.
 
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panda

Savant
Joined
Dec 31, 2014
Messages
398
It's over.
Yeah, i was all against it too, but figured out the good news: old version is still available as one of the rare "prototype designs" or whatever it is called, with slight nerf(now has delicate machinery). So, obtainable it in a number of ways. 100% guaranteed with Nex + its spy + story point - cost of heavy cruiser. Still totally worth it.
 

IMPERIVM RECTVM

Literate
Joined
May 18, 2023
Messages
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THe only thing that i really hate in this game is the FACT that i really suck in manual combat. abismal performance i show. just cant keep flux levels optimal as AI do. not even close..

You and me both mate, you and me both...
Use phase ships. It's one thing the player is much better than AI.
 

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