Vapourware Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Remake from Saber Interactive

[PulsatingBrain]

So you must DESPISE Christopher Tolkien?

different setting

Why are you jumping to a totally different setting bro???? I'd never do that

 

[Rusty Eyes]

Why do people care so much about "canon"? The concept itself was invented by the Arthur Conan Doyle Estate, once they realised Sherlock Holmes would enter Public Domain, for purely marketing purposes. The idea didn't grow out naturally, nor does it carry any meaning outside of purely IP purposes. Think about it - by bitching about what is and isn't "canon", you are quite literally adopting the language of the most vile element of civilised society sans the government itself - corporate interest. Canon exists, definitely. But it doesn't matter in the slightest.

Because the author should get the final say in what the real story is.
It has nothing to do with IP(I oppose all IP rights), in fact, it does the opposite -- people would care more about work from the original author over a random person in a world without IP laws because they place more emphasis on what the original author has to say.

So you must DESPISE Christopher Tolkien?

To what extent?
His father effectively passed on the authorship of the works to Christopher, and his word was as valuable as the good Professor himself.

1. Tolkien Sr. wanted to turn Middle-Earth into a mythological setting to which other authors would add their stories. Christopher turned it into a Disney Vault, essentially.
2. Then he started churning out new novels "based on the notes of his father". As of today he released more written material than his father.
3. Also, thanks to him, Middle-Earth hasn't entered Public Domain.

In other words, Christopher Tolkien would be the ur-example of taking someone else's setting and building upon it without the creator's consent.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

1. Tolkien Sr. wanted to turn Middle-Earth into a mythological setting to which other authors would add their stories. Christopher turned it into a Disney Vault, essentially.
2. Then he started churning out new novels "based on the notes of his father". As of today he released more written material than his father.
3. Also, thanks to him, Middle-Earth hasn't entered Public Domain.

1. Good.
2. Who cares? Nobody complains about Chris Tolkien because his work is also good.
3. Good. We don't need shit tier fanfic polluting Middle Earth. If only Christopher was still alive to uphold that standard.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Why do people care so much about "canon"? The concept itself was invented by the Arthur Conan Doyle Estate, once they realised Sherlock Holmes would enter Public Domain, for purely marketing purposes. The idea didn't grow out naturally, nor does it carry any meaning outside of purely IP purposes. Think about it - by bitching about what is and isn't "canon", you are quite literally adopting the language of the most vile element of civilised society sans the government itself - corporate interest. Canon exists, definitely. But it doesn't matter in the slightest.

Because the author should get the final say in what the real story is.
It has nothing to do with IP(I oppose all IP rights), in fact, it does the opposite -- people would care more about work from the original author over a random person in a world without IP laws because they place more emphasis on what the original author has to say.

So you must DESPISE Christopher Tolkien?

To what extent?
His father effectively passed on the authorship of the works to Christopher, and his word was as valuable as the good Professor himself.

1. Tolkien Sr. wanted to turn Middle-Earth into a mythological setting to which other authors would add their stories. Christopher turned it into a Disney Vault, essentially.
2. Then he started churning out new novels "based on the notes of his father". As of today he released more written material than his father.
3. Also, thanks to him, Middle-Earth hasn't entered Public Domain.

In other words, Christopher Tolkien would be the ur-example of taking someone else's setting and building upon it without the creator's consent.

1. Then he would have made his work public domain, but he did not.
2. His father had a lot of unpublished work, and he wished to share it with the world.
3. No, it will enter public domain when the time comes just like any other work. The Hobbit enters public domain in USA in 2032. If his father wanted it in the public domain, he would have placed it there. The main reason it won't enter public domain until a much later date in the UK is their laws are even sillier than USA's.

His father was already seeking out movie deals long before he died, btw.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth_in_film

 

[Rusty Eyes]

1. Tolkien Sr. wanted to turn Middle-Earth into a mythological setting to which other authors would add their stories. Christopher turned it into a Disney Vault, essentially.
2. Then he started churning out new novels "based on the notes of his father". As of today he released more written material than his father.
3. Also, thanks to him, Middle-Earth hasn't entered Public Domain.

1. Good.
2. Who cares? Nobody complains about Chris Tolkien because his work is also good.
3. Good. We don't need shit tier fanfic polluting Middle Earth. If only Christopher was still alive to uphold that standard.

Right... it's "good" to have the entire IP in the hands of a single person/IP holder... because that will guarantee it remains "pure". Like Star Wars. Or Star Trek. Or Doctor Who. Or Discworld. Sorry, but centralisation is the death of the setting, once its creator passes on, or simply resigns.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Really the biggest problem with Stormtroopers being clones is the films themselves. There's plenty of group shots of them and absolutely zero effort is made to make them look even remotely like they have the same height.

In the old Expanded Universe the Empire used 4 main clone lines (including the Fett clones), several experimental clone lines AS WELL as recruits for its Stormtrooper Corps.

I am pretty sure that after the Clone Wars ended cloning was banned.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Right... it's "good" to have the entire IP in the hands of a single person/IP holder... because that will guarantee it remains "pure". Like Star Wars. Or Star Trek. Or Doctor Who. Or Discworld. Sorry, but centralisation is the death of the setting, once its creator passes on, or simply resigns.

Unambiguously Yes.

It doesn't guarantee that it remains pure but it greatly increases the likelihood it will. Star Wars had fairly strict policing, there were few truly awful additions to it and any that grossly contradicted canon were sent to Lucas' version of retardo land.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

No, the concept of canon came from the Church

It actually came from Marcion, who was an opponent of proto-orthodoxy.

 

[Storyfag]

Really the biggest problem with Stormtroopers being clones is the films themselves. There's plenty of group shots of them and absolutely zero effort is made to make them look even remotely like they have the same height.

In the old Expanded Universe the Empire used 4 main clone lines (including the Fett clones), several experimental clone lines AS WELL as recruits for its Stormtrooper Corps.

I am pretty sure that after the Clone Wars ended cloning was banned.

Outside of shady Imperial business, yes.

 

[Storyfag]

Star Wars had fairly strict policing, there were few truly awful additions to it

Hold. My. Blue milk.

Skippy the droid Jedi.
Star Wars: Droids.
The Crystal Star.
The Pact on Bakura.
The Courtship of Princess Leia.
Tales of the Bounty Huntes (specifically the one with IG-88 taking over Death Star II)
The entire young Jedi Knights series.
Loads and loads of old Marvel Star Wars comic books.
and so on, and so forth

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Star Wars had fairly strict policing, there were few truly awful additions to it

Hold. My. Blue milk.

Skippy the droid Jedi.
Star Wars: Droids.
The Crystal Star.
The Pact on Bakura.
The Courtship of Princess Leia.
Tales of the Bounty Huntes (specifically the one with IG-88 taking over Death Star II)
The entire young Jedi Knights series.
Loads and loads of old Marvel Star Wars comic books.
and so on, and so forth

Reading a lot of EU books when I was younger made me suspicious of fiction novels. Absurd, unfair, but true.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Star Wars had fairly strict policing, there were few truly awful additions to it

Hold. My. Blue milk.

Skippy the droid Jedi.
Star Wars: Droids.
The Crystal Star.
The Pact on Bakura.
The Courtship of Princess Leia.
Tales of the Bounty Huntes (specifically the one with IG-88 taking over Death Star II)
The entire young Jedi Knights series.
Loads and loads of old Marvel Star Wars comic books.
and so on, and so forth

Skippy and the old Marvel comics are not canon. Droids is a childrens' cartoon. The former were what I mentioned when I said: "any that grossly contradicted canon were sent to Lucas' version of retardo land." The rest of your examples I'd have to look into but I don't remember many people sperging about them. The one I remember most egregious was Dark Empire resurrecting Palpatine.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Most of the good material was the EU. IP policing is gay.

 

[Storyfag]

Most of the good material was the EU. IP policing is gay.

Dark Forces.
Thrawn.
Tales of the Jedi.
KotORs.
Tartakovsky's Clone Wars.
Legacy.

 

[Vezok]

I love how this thread turned from showing doubts about the devs and shitting on the writer, to discussing Star Wars lore and canon. Do continue, they are interesting to read.

Also, why is this thread tagged 'possible decline'? I can't think of a single remake/reboot/sequel to a 20+ year old classic that was incline. Take 'possible' out, it IS going to be decline.

 

[wahrk]

Who does care about Star Wars "canon", though? Especially now that Disney owns the franchise and is replacing the old EU with their own terrible stories anyways? At the end of the day there are the original films, and then there is everything else. This was true even for the old EU, which contained plenty of stories that were nominally canon but basically glorified fan-fiction. There was some good stuff too, but plenty of bad as well, and canon here just means that it all has to co-exist and be treated with the same amount of relevance. The advantage of something like KotOR/TotJ is that it was so far removed from most everything else in the setting that you could do (potentially) do some creative things without worrying too much about continuity.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Most of the good material was the EU. IP policing is gay.

Dark Forces.
Thrawn.
Tales of the Jedi.
KotORs.
Tartakovsky's Clone Wars.
Legacy.

This list is massively monocled... except you decided to include KotORs. I would allow 2's presence (though I disagree it's top-tier SW material), but 1? What the ever-loving fuck? It completely neutered and sterilized the Tales of the Jedi in order to make it more palatable to the mass-market.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

rusty_shackleford Are you saying you've read the Tales of the Jedi comics? Possible I made it up, but I thought you had some weirdly strident anti-comics stance.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

rusty_shackleford Are you saying you've read the Tales of the Jedi comics? Possible I made it up, but I thought you had some weirdly strident anti-comics stance.

I just like pressing the fake news button.

 

[Grimlorn]

The force seems to have a will of its own and encompasses both light and dark. I'm pretty sure it's referenced that the Dark side of the force began interfering with the Jedi's precognition skills during the prequels. Maybe it was Sidious, I don't know. It's hard to believe Sidious was the strongest when he didn't have the ability to live forever like his former master and because he had to sneak in while his master slept and slit his throat. It's also implied that the Jedi's hubris and arrogance led to their downfall. I don't know how much is canon but it appears that both the Jedi and Sith have been on the brink of extinction multiple times throughout history. If the force has a will of its own then it seems that it has a hand in the destruction of both sides, and neither side is the way the force wants it or perhaps conflict is the overall goal. Life cannot evolve without conflict and peace just make everyone weaker and more complacent anyway.

Really this just seems like bad storytelling in that the same stories are recycled endlessly for drama and there is no consistent meaning to what is going on due to all the different creators contradicting each other. Which is why there is no depth to the universe.

It was a clouding caused by Sidious. Whether we believe Sidious was the most powerful or not is irrelevant, it was stated to be the case by G-canon material. In regard to killing Plagueis though, there is no evidence that he lacked the ability to just kill him outright rather than simply opting for the added pleasure of exploiting the position of trust he was in to torture his old master to death. Either way, Palpatine was the superior Sith because he won. Victory trumps all other considerations in Maslo's hierarchy of Sith needs, except freedom™.

The Jedi had only been on the brink of extinction twice that I know of. Even if we're charitable and doubled that estimation, four times in ~25,000 years is nothing. Lastly, I'll restate what I said a few posts ago, the existence of dark side practitioners is not a prerequisite to conflict existing in the galaxy.

For Sidious to be the most powerful Sith ever, he'd have to be completely lying about his old Master's powers, since he didn't appear to have the power to do those feats. Also, it's more gratifying to defeat someone conscious and at their best triumphing over them rather than killing them asleep. Your logic that attacking someone asleep makes no sense. Someone that slits a man's throat in his sleep is basically saying he can't win in a normal fight. During Sidious's fight with Yoda, he tells Yoda that Anakin would become a more powerful Sith than him, so I don't see how Sidious could be the greatest ever. Even he seemed to admit he wasn't as great as his old master and needed Anakin to potentially replicate his power. Lucas can say whatever he wants, but the prequels seem to contradict a lot of it.

In both Kotor games the Jedi are on the verge of extinction and there are stories in the game of there being even greater wars with more powerful Force users from years earlier. According to these stories it only appears to take a couple good Jedi falling to the Dark side for there to be a crisis that threatens the entire order.

Lastly, I'll restate what I said a few posts ago, the existence of dark side practitioners is not a prerequisite to conflict existing in the galaxy.

No where did I imply this. Only that life evolves through competition not peace, and that the Force encompasses both light and dark and has a will of its own and it would seem the force itself doesn't completely approve of either side as the way to use the force, which is why the Jedi inevitably fail over and over.

 

[wahrk]

It completely neutered and sterilized the Tales of the Jedi

In what way? Aesthetically?

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

It completely neutered and sterilized the Tales of the Jedi

In what way? Aesthetically?

Yes, but not solely or most egregiously. The TotJ comics (at their best, some of them are not great) have an increased focus on mysticism and they were written in a time before Lucas had botched everything up with the prequels. The way the comics are presented is very much as legends for which there is no real historical record (think The Iliad or King Arthur). That authorial ambiguity amps up the awe and feeds into genuinely operatic stories, and coupled with the intense focus on mysticism helps make the stories feel very different (but still just enough the same) from the original movies. KotOR just completely bastardized the setting by taking everything tonally and aesthetically unique and reworking it into a different shade of the prequel's setting.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

For Sidious to be the most powerful Sith ever, he'd have to be completely lying about his old Master's powers, since he didn't appear to have the power to do those feats. Also, it's more gratifying to defeat someone conscious and at their best triumphing over them rather than killing them asleep. Your logic that attacking someone asleep makes no sense. Someone that slits a man's throat in his sleep is basically saying he can't win in a normal fight. During Sidious's fight with Yoda, he tells Yoda that Anakin would become a more powerful Sith than him, so I don't see how Sidious could be the greatest ever. Even he seemed to admit he wasn't as great as his old master and needed Anakin to potentially replicate his power. Lucas can say whatever he wants, but the prequels seem to contradict a lot of it.

In both Kotor games the Jedi are on the verge of extinction and there are stories in the game of there being even greater wars with more powerful Force users from years earlier. According to these stories it only appears to take a couple good Jedi falling to the Dark side for there to be a crisis that threatens the entire order.

No where did I imply this. Only that life evolves through competition not peace, and that the Force encompasses both light and dark and has a will of its own and it would seem the force itself doesn't completely approve of either side as the way to use the force, which is why the Jedi inevitably fail over and over.

Palpatine lied all the time. What Anakin may or may not have come to be doesn't matter at all, that potential was dead as soon as he burned on Mustafar and entered the suit. Palpatine did not slit his master's throat in the old canon, he shocked him to death. That is him opting for torture. Perhaps if Plagueis had deigned to research turning his body to cortosis while he slept instead of resurrection he would have lived and the title would be his, but he didn't. He got got. Palpatine was the most powerful Sith according to GL. End of. This was meant to be an example of how old canon was structured not a debate on Sith power levels and I'm well past done hearing these mid-oughts copes.

In KotOR II they were on the verge of destruction, in KotOR they were not. The implication of the latter part of your prior post was clear to me, I don't agree.

 

[deuxhero]

Star Wars had fairly strict policing, there were few truly awful additions to it

Hold. My. Blue milk.

Skippy the droid Jedi.

Skippy was from a gag series that contains THIS

two big images

(and that's not even counting the fourth wall breaking introductions by the comic's staff)

It was explicitly non-canon when it was made.

And then of course there's them hoo-hah stories, which make none of the pretense about tying in so long as you're doubled over and crackin' up! Here, this "Skippy" holo is just the ticket if yer looking to laugh.

Seeing people cite Skippy as "hurr durr EU bad" is a great way to tell they're just parroting stuff without any actual experience.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

It completely neutered and sterilized the Tales of the Jedi

In what way? Aesthetically?

Yes, but not solely or most egregiously. The TotJ comics (at their best, some of them are not great) have an increased focus on mysticism and they were written in a time before Lucas had botched everything up with the prequels. The way the comics are presented is very much as legends for which there is no real historical record (think The Iliad or King Arthur). That authorial ambiguity amps up the awe and feeds into genuinely operatic stories, and coupled with the intense focus on mysticism helps make the stories feel very different (but still just enough the same) from the original movies. KotOR just completely bastardized the setting by taking everything tonally and aesthetically unique and reworking it into a different shade of the prequel's setting.

It was a shame that they weren't brave enough to keep the pseudo-Egyptian sci-fi fantasy aesthetic of TOTJ but it was the right call from a marketing standpoint. Revan, Malak and Bastila resemble Exar, Ulic and Nomi if you squint real hard, but the characters themselves are different. Some of the mysticism was preserved on Korriban with Ajunta Pall. I'd have liked to have spent more time in the ruins as it were.