Gold Box SSI's Gold Box Series Thread

[octavius]

BTW, Cleric/Thief can is only viable if a Kender IMO, since they can backstab with the Hoopak. But I seem to recall that Cael is an anti-kenderist.

Are you retarded?

Why? Do I make you feel inferior?

1st Ed allows you to use Thief weapons.

Hmm...this is the first time I hear about this (and we have discussed Kender Cleric/Thieves before), but the manual seems to confirm your claim.

 

[Cael]

BTW, Cleric/Thief can is only viable if a Kender IMO, since they can backstab with the Hoopak. But I seem to recall that Cael is an anti-kenderist.

Are you retarded?

Why? Do I make you feel inferior?

1st Ed allows you to use Thief weapons.

Hmm...this is the first time I hear about this (and we have discussed Kender Cleric/Thieves before), but the manual seems to confirm your claim.

Yeah, and you displayed your proven ignorance even then. Poor bastards that listen to you are in for a shock.

 

[octavius]

It's a wonderful world we live in where a dumbfuck can occasionally rise above the level of a retard, and bask in the glory.

 

[Cael]

It's a wonderful world we live in where a dumbfuck can occasionally rise above the level of a retard, and bask in the glory.

Your butthurt level of coping is pretty hilarious, especially when you are still demanding that people show you citations when you yourself admitted to being wrong after reading the obvious citation.

 

[octavius]

I still need evidence that it also works in the game.
Because there never were errors in the Gold Box game manuals, right? And things were always the same from game to game, right?

BTW, your insults are pitiful. Barely JamesDixon level quality. I think I deserve better.

 

[Cael]

I still need evidence that it also works in the game.
Because there never were errors in the Gold Box game manuals, right? And things were always the same from game to game, right?

BTW, your insults are pitiful. Barely JamesDixon level quality. I think I deserve better.

Your post only proves you have never played Gold Box games, and yet you presume to give advice. Pitiful. Typical leftard sjw tier shit right there.

 

[pjs]

I just did a test run, continuing from GATEWAY to CURSE; with imported characters, I played without a mage until getting rid of the first bond (Dracandros). It was reasonably easy with so much fighting power even without haste and other buffs (I skipped only the room full of otyoghs and the drow cleric and mage quarters). Then I went to Shadowdale dungeons, developed the rangers to level 10, switched one to mage and grinded it up on a good start. I don't recall if went all the way to L11 there or whether I continued with the bonds quests. At any rate with all the superb warriors (now also boosted with enlarge), one cleric and one dual class ranger/mage, the rest of CURSE went very smoothly.

I also played through SECRET again. Very soon the cleric got to L12 (ie. access to two heals), I dual-classed it to mage. Now the healing was at the hands of my two paladins, I had to wait until the cleric/mage reached mage level 13 (ie. 1.125M xp); this was about the same time as paladins got to level 14. To speed up the process (also after switching the paladins) I also did some XP grinding. Drider Base fire giant section seemed ideal for this. Just rest 3-4 days in the right place (a certain corridor provided ideal battlescape properties) and along comes a patrol of 5 fire giants and some hellhounds, which gives you about 10,000 xp. The battles are so easy that I ran them through with Quick mode and maximal speed with melee weapons only; essentially only Vala, my ranger/cleric, and cleric/mage took down the enemies because the other four were still developing as their mage class. Each battle took about 15 seconds, and you could typically Fix right after it (and even if not, the party could take down a couple of additional patrols). Essentially this meant that you could get about 1 million XP in about an hour (including running back to the town and scribing new spells etc). Maybe it would have been possible to grind less, but then the game would otherwise required way more attention towards the end. Now I could just run through most battles towards the endgame with auto, just having to take note if there were spellcasters or some more dangerous enemies.

So if you are interested in maximising the power of your characters in POD, it is actually possible to start with 2 paladins, 3 rangers and 1 cleric in Gateway, run through Curse and SSB and eventually have 4 warriors of two attacks per round, 1 warrior with 1,5 attacks per round, one about L12 cleric (the only drawback here is no direct access to restoration), and all of these dual-classed to mages that get more and more powerful as the game progresses.

FWIW, I tried a similar Champion strategy, but this time skipping GATEWAY and CURSE. So, I started with SSB and created 2 paladins, 3 rangers and 1 cleric and:
- ran 1 ranger until L10, then dual-class to mage (in the end, about 4M xp)
- ran the cleric until L12, then dual-class to mage (in the end, about 3.2M xp)
- ran 2 rangers until L15, then dual-classed to mages (so that they will get double attacks, regaining ranger abilities in POD, in the end about 2.3M xp)
- ran 2 paladins until L14, then dual-classed to mages (they got to L15 in the final castle, in the end about 2.1M xp).

The beginning was a bit more difficult due to the lack of mage. But you could use bows to disable enemy spellcasters and figure out the best time to for the certain trickier fights. But because you lose all your items anyway, it would not take too long to catch about 500-1000k xp compared to importing from the previous games. (But importing is also easier due to a bug because characters with Enlarge get the boosted stats permanently when importing). But doable with some grinding at certain places.

 

[weirwood]

Also, just FYI, a human knight at 10d10 and 18 Con still has the same average HP as a dwarf fighter at 9d10 and 19 Con and at the same level but a higher possible max HP. You get 1 extra HP per level after level 9, and that's it.

Seriously? That's your argument?

In the same time it takes a knight to go from level 18 to 19, a fighter will advance from level 22 to 31, or thereabouts. That's not a hypothetical, that's how it's going to go down for the majority of DQK.

 

[weirwood]

Hmm...this is the first time I hear about this (and we have discussed Kender Cleric/Thieves before), but the manual seems to confirm your claim.

The joke being that other than kender, only dwarves can be cleric/thieves, and they're gimped by even worse level limits, for both the cleric and thief classes.

You should go sword & board with the kender against large monsters, but hoopaks do more damage on the backstab.

 

[The Limper]

Also, just FYI, a human knight at 10d10 and 18 Con still has the same average HP as a dwarf fighter at 9d10 and 19 Con and at the same level but a higher possible max HP. You get 1 extra HP per level after level 9, and that's it.

Seriously? That's your argument?

In the same time it takes a knight to go from level 18 to 19, a fighter will advance from level 22 to 31, or thereabouts. That's not a hypothetical, that's how it's going to go down for the majority of DQK.

Serious question. Does THACO keep improving at level 21 for Warriors or does it cap? If it does cap, that’s a major bonus for Fighter in comparison to a Knight. If not, then only a few more HP vs spells for a Knight puts Knights back on top, though not by a landslide…..

 

[Cael]

Also, just FYI, a human knight at 10d10 and 18 Con still has the same average HP as a dwarf fighter at 9d10 and 19 Con and at the same level but a higher possible max HP. You get 1 extra HP per level after level 9, and that's it.

Seriously? That's your argument?

In the same time it takes a knight to go from level 18 to 19, a fighter will advance from level 22 to 31, or thereabouts. That's not a hypothetical, that's how it's going to go down for the majority of DQK.

Actually, it is level 22 to 24. A Fighter advances 2 levels to a Knight of the Rose's 1. 250k vs 500k. But, hey, believe what you will.

And in DQK, if you are not clearing entire screens of dragons with DBF, it doesn't matter how many HP you have as they come in groups of a dozen or more in any of the serious fights. Your Dragonlance wielder is useful but aren't exactly going to eat all those breaths and be in any shape left to fight. You only really need about 150hp, which a maxed out Knight will have at level 14.

I play with multi-class characters all the time. You don't need that many HP to win the game. Just enough to beat your typical dragon's HP for a Dragonlance wielder. Which doesn't matter all that much if you plan ahead and have 4 DBF slinging mages in the party, except for that one fight.

 

[Cael]

Also, just FYI, a human knight at 10d10 and 18 Con still has the same average HP as a dwarf fighter at 9d10 and 19 Con and at the same level but a higher possible max HP. You get 1 extra HP per level after level 9, and that's it.

Seriously? That's your argument?

In the same time it takes a knight to go from level 18 to 19, a fighter will advance from level 22 to 31, or thereabouts. That's not a hypothetical, that's how it's going to go down for the majority of DQK.

Serious question. Does THACO keep improving at level 21 for Warriors or does it cap? If it does cap, that’s a major bonus for Fighter in comparison to a Knight. If not, then only a few more HP vs spells for a Knight puts Knights back on top, though not by a landslide…..

It caps around level 17, according to this.

As a contrast, using GBC to keep XP instead of losing them when you level, my Knight of the Rose was around level 15 at the start of DQK with 4.3 mill XP (he would have been level 18 Knight of the Sword).

The biggest advantage of Fighter vs Knight is the ability to multiclass. As both cap out at 17 for everything except HP, you basically are there at the start of DQK. Everything else is just more HP, so you are looking basically at more HP vs a whole slew of spells. Is HP really going to make a huge difference at 150hp vs 163 (level 18 Knight of the Sword vs level 24 Fighter, both at about 4M XP)?

 

[weirwood]

Actually, it is level 22 to 24. A Fighter advances 2 levels to a Knight of the Rose's 1. 250k vs 500k. But, hey, believe what you will.

Since you didn't even bother to look it up before you kept digging:

A Knight of the Sword reaches level 18 at 3,850k xp. The fighter is at level 23 at that point.

Sword can't advance past 18, and you don’t want to lose levels by switching orders early, because the only advantage Rose has over Sword in the first place is the ability to level past 18. It takes 5,500k xp to stay L18 when switching, and 6,000k to reach level 19. At that point, the fighter ist about to hit L32, at 6,000k +1.

In summary: I can see how you earned your title.

And in DQK, if you are not clearing entire screens of dragons with DBF, it doesn't matter how many HP you have as they come in groups of a dozen or more in any of the serious fights. Your Dragonlance wielder is useful but aren't exactly going to eat all those breaths and be in any shape left to fight. You only really need about 150hp, which a maxed out Knight will have at level 14.

I play with multi-class characters all the time. You don't need that many HP to win the game. Just enough to beat your typical dragon's HP for a Dragonlance wielder. Which doesn't matter all that much if you plan ahead and have 4 DBF slinging mages in the party, except for that one fight.

You don’t need that many hp, you don’t need that many mages either. Two dragonlances and haste goes a long way. As I said at the start, it's nice to have the extra hp cushion in case things go south, but it's hardly essential.

The biggest advantage of Fighter vs Knight is faster leveling. The Knight starts with more hp, and gets Solamnic Plate that stacks with rings of protection; the fighter gets better THAC0, saving throws and #attacks earlier, and has more movement in magical armor. Since the first two games have level caps rather than xp caps, the Knight will catch up in most regards, but it's still noticeable and makes the classes distinct in the early game.

Planning for two dragonlance wielders is just good party building. Bringing at least one Knight is a given. You have plenty of options fore the second one, and single-class fighter definitely is a valid one.

 

[Cael]

Actually, it is level 22 to 24. A Fighter advances 2 levels to a Knight of the Rose's 1. 250k vs 500k. But, hey, believe what you will.

Since you didn't even bother to look it up before you kept digging:

A Knight of the Sword reaches level 18 at 3,850k xp. The fighter is at level 23 at that point.

Sword can't advance past 18, and you don’t want to lose levels by switching orders early, because the only advantage Rose has over Sword in the first place is the ability to level past 18. It takes 5,500k xp to stay L18 when switching, and 6,000k to reach level 19. At that point, the fighter ist about to hit L32, at 6,000k +1.

In summary: I can see how you earned your title.

And in DQK, if you are not clearing entire screens of dragons with DBF, it doesn't matter how many HP you have as they come in groups of a dozen or more in any of the serious fights. Your Dragonlance wielder is useful but aren't exactly going to eat all those breaths and be in any shape left to fight. You only really need about 150hp, which a maxed out Knight will have at level 14.

I play with multi-class characters all the time. You don't need that many HP to win the game. Just enough to beat your typical dragon's HP for a Dragonlance wielder. Which doesn't matter all that much if you plan ahead and have 4 DBF slinging mages in the party, except for that one fight.

You don’t need that many hp, you don’t need that many mages either. Two dragonlances and haste goes a long way. As I said at the start, it's nice to have the extra hp cushion in case things go south, but it's hardly essential.

The biggest advantage of Fighter vs Knight is faster leveling. The Knight starts with more hp, and gets Solamnic Plate that stacks with rings of protection; the fighter gets better THAC0, saving throws and #attacks earlier, and has more movement in magical armor. Since the first two games have level caps rather than xp caps, the Knight will catch up in most regards, but it's still noticeable and makes the classes distinct in the early game.

Planning for two dragonlance wielders is just good party building. Bringing at least one Knight is a given. You have plenty of options fore the second one, and single-class fighter definitely is a valid one.

You conflate two different orders and make a specious assumption in order to exaggerate your point because you can't make a better argument on why a Dwarf Fighter can be so much better than a Knight when it comes to Dragonlance wielding. It is pretty sad how you had to do that just to go "dwarf good". For the record, I knew where you were going with it the second you picked levels 18 to 19. I just refused to play ball with your shit assumption and assertion, which is why I deliberately used the "and after level x, it is y k xp/level" rule, which actually shows what a shit point you were making.

And no, there is nothing a single classed Fighter can give to the Dragonlance that a Fighter/Cleric or a Ranger or a Paladin or a Ranger/Cleric or even a Fighter/Mage can't especially when you hit level caps in the first two games. And you can easily hit level cap as a two-class multiclass character in both of the first two games. At level 14, it doesn't really matter if it is a single or multi-class Fighter you have, the HP is high enough that the Dragonlance is fully effective. In fact, I'd make the argument that a multi-class Fighter is better because the number of dice you roll will bring you more towards the average than the chance of things going pear shaped when you roll a 1 for HP in one of your 9d10 rolls. And that is before you stack on the entire class of abilities the second part of the multi-class brings.

Dwarf Fighter is pretty shit. Even that Dwarf Fighter you get in DQK pales in comparison with the rest of your party, even one composed of 1 knight and 5 Qualinesti F/C/M.

 

[weirwood]

I knew where you were going with it the second you picked levels 18 to 19. I just refused to do math, which is why I deliberately used the "and after level x, it is y k xp/level" rule, which actually shows what an ignorant dumbfuck I am.

So you knew where I was going, but you still got it completely wrong? That's not the point in your favor you think it is.

Maybe you'll explain to us next why it's a pro Gold Box strategy to have a L15 Knight of the Rose rather than a L18 Knight of the Sword?

Keep going, you'll be in Australia soon.

 

[Cael]

I knew where you were going with it the second you picked levels 18 to 19. I just refused to do math, which is why I deliberately used the "and after level x, it is y k xp/level" rule, which actually shows what an ignorant dumbfuck I am.

So you knew where I was going, but you still got it completely wrong? That's not the point in your favor you think it is.

Maybe you'll explain to us next why it's a pro Gold Box strategy to have a L15 Knight of the Rose rather than a L18 Knight of the Sword?

Keep going, you'll be in Australia soon.

I see that reading comprehension is not your strong point. I refused to give your retarded assertion any oxygen by ignoring it like the trash it is.

You deliberately picked a unique point in time that is a quirk of the system in order to bolster your retarded assertion that a dwarf fighter is in any way better as a party member than any other combination of race and classes that will give a much better outcome and power curve without sacrificing any lethality with a dragonlance. As I said before, a level 14 dwarf fighter and a level 14 knight has little difference in dragonlance ability other than +5 HP difference. Meanwhile, the Knight has level 6 Cleric spells and a much higher AC.

At 4.3 million xp, my Knight can become level 15 Knight of the Rose at the start of DQK with no loss of XP. Your dwarf fighter will lose ~2.3 million xp and become a level 15 fighter at the start of DQK.

Factor that into your calculations, retard.

 

[0sacred]

a much higher AC.

Factor that into your calculations, retard.

 

[The Limper]

Actually, it is level 22 to 24. A Fighter advances 2 levels to a Knight of the Rose's 1. 250k vs 500k. But, hey, believe what you will.

Since you didn't even bother to look it up before you kept digging:

A Knight of the Sword reaches level 18 at 3,850k xp. The fighter is at level 23 at that point.

Sword can't advance past 18, and you don’t want to lose levels by switching orders early, because the only advantage Rose has over Sword in the first place is the ability to level past 18. It takes 5,500k xp to stay L18 when switching, and 6,000k to reach level 19. At that point, the fighter ist about to hit L32, at 6,000k +1.

In summary: I can see how you earned your title.

And in DQK, if you are not clearing entire screens of dragons with DBF, it doesn't matter how many HP you have as they come in groups of a dozen or more in any of the serious fights. Your Dragonlance wielder is useful but aren't exactly going to eat all those breaths and be in any shape left to fight. You only really need about 150hp, which a maxed out Knight will have at level 14.

I play with multi-class characters all the time. You don't need that many HP to win the game. Just enough to beat your typical dragon's HP for a Dragonlance wielder. Which doesn't matter all that much if you plan ahead and have 4 DBF slinging mages in the party, except for that one fight.

You don’t need that many hp, you don’t need that many mages either. Two dragonlances and haste goes a long way. As I said at the start, it's nice to have the extra hp cushion in case things go south, but it's hardly essential.

The biggest advantage of Fighter vs Knight is faster leveling. The Knight starts with more hp, and gets Solamnic Plate that stacks with rings of protection; the fighter gets better THAC0, saving throws and #attacks earlier, and has more movement in magical armor. Since the first two games have level caps rather than xp caps, the Knight will catch up in most regards, but it's still noticeable and makes the classes distinct in the early game.

Planning for two dragonlance wielders is just good party building. Bringing at least one Knight is a given. You have plenty of options fore the second one, and single-class fighter definitely is a valid one.

You conflate two different orders and make a specious assumption in order to exaggerate your point because you can't make a better argument on why a Dwarf Fighter can be so much better than a Knight when it comes to Dragonlance wielding. It is pretty sad how you had to do that just to go "dwarf good". For the record, I knew where you were going with it the second you picked levels 18 to 19. I just refused to play ball with your shit assumption and assertion, which is why I deliberately used the "and after level x, it is y k xp/level" rule, which actually shows what a shit point you were making.

And no, there is nothing a single classed Fighter can give to the Dragonlance that a Fighter/Cleric or a Ranger or a Paladin or a Ranger/Cleric or even a Fighter/Mage can't especially when you hit level caps in the first two games. And you can easily hit level cap as a two-class multiclass character in both of the first two games. At level 14, it doesn't really matter if it is a single or multi-class Fighter you have, the HP is high enough that the Dragonlance is fully effective. In fact, I'd make the argument that a multi-class Fighter is better because the number of dice you roll will bring you more towards the average than the chance of things going pear shaped when you roll a 1 for HP in one of your 9d10 rolls. And that is before you stack on the entire class of abilities the second part of the multi-class brings.

Dwarf Fighter is pretty shit. Even that Dwarf Fighter you get in DQK pales in comparison with the rest of your party, even one composed of 1 knight and 5 Qualinesti F/C/M.

Another game mechanic question…. If THACO stops improving at level 17, do Saving Throws stop improving as well? If they do, it really makes the Knight a better late game choice with his spell selection to bolster his abilities. If they don’t, seems that maybe the Dwarf Fighter would be a bit more likely to make Dragon Breath saves and still be standing when the Knight becomes roasted chicken-in-a-can…

 

[mediocrepoet]

Another game mechanic question…. If THACO stops improving at level 17, do Saving Throws stop improving as well? If they do, it really makes the Knight a better late game choice with his spell selection to bolster his abilities. If they don’t, seems that maybe the Dwarf Fighter would be a bit more likely to make Dragon Breath saves and still be standing when the Knight becomes roasted chicken-in-a-can…

Everything caps. You could look up AD&D 1st Edition THAC0 and Saving Throw tables to answer your questions. They should also be listed in the game manuals.

Basically, saves have level bands for each type of class and progress with that up to a limit. It's similar to THAC0 in that regard.

 

[pjs]

Another game mechanic question…. If THACO stops improving at level 17, do Saving Throws stop improving as well? If they do, it really makes the Knight a better late game choice with his spell selection to bolster his abilities. If they don’t, seems that maybe the Dwarf Fighter would be a bit more likely to make Dragon Breath saves and still be standing when the Knight becomes roasted chicken-in-a-can…

Everything caps. You could look up AD&D 1st Edition THAC0 and Saving Throw tables to answer your questions. They should also be listed in the game manuals.

Basically, saves have level bands for each type of class and progress with that up to a limit. It's similar to THAC0 in that regard.

I don't think Gold Box games manuals include this information. I just checked DQK, POD and SSB and I could not find them.

Off the internet, you can find for example the following:

I am not sure if these apply to Gold Box games as such. I believe they do (but at least THAC0 progression could be very easily checked from the VIEW character menu). The main point is that, as you say, THAC0 progression is capped, as is the saving throw progression.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Another game mechanic question…. If THACO stops improving at level 17, do Saving Throws stop improving as well? If they do, it really makes the Knight a better late game choice with his spell selection to bolster his abilities. If they don’t, seems that maybe the Dwarf Fighter would be a bit more likely to make Dragon Breath saves and still be standing when the Knight becomes roasted chicken-in-a-can…

Everything caps. You could look up AD&D 1st Edition THAC0 and Saving Throw tables to answer your questions. They should also be listed in the game manuals.

Basically, saves have level bands for each type of class and progress with that up to a limit. It's similar to THAC0 in that regard.

I don't think Gold Box games manuals include this information. I just checked DQK, POD and SSB and I could not find them.

Off the internet, you can find for example the following:

I am not sure if these apply to Gold Box games as such. I believe they do (but at least THAC0 progression could be very easily checked from the VIEW character menu). The main point is that, as you say, THAC0 progression is capped, as is the saving throw progression.

I double checked and you're right. Just the stat, and class progression tables.

Anyway yes, IIRC all Gold Box games are 1E and 2E doesn't come in until Baldur's Gate.

Either way, they cap out in the high "normal" levels. Around level 20.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Off the internet, you can find for example the following:

This is 2nd edition AD&D, since it's the only version to use terms for groups of classes (warrior, priest, wizard, rogue), and for that matter the term THAC0 wasn't used in a rulebook until the Mentzer BECMI D&D "Black Box" Master Set in 1985. In 1st edition AD&D, as listed on page 74 of the DMG, to-hit rolls stop improving after level 17 for fighters, paladins, and rangers, though the last improvement is at level 19 for clerics, monks, and druids, and at level 21 for magic-users, illusionists, thieves, and assassins. Not certain as to whether this was fully implemented in the Gold Box games.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Anyway yes, IIRC all Gold Box games are 1E and 2E doesn't come in until Baldur's Gate.

Dark Sun, among other post-Gold Box games.

 

[pjs]

Off the internet, you can find for example the following:

This is 2nd edition AD&D, since it's the only version to use terms for groups of classes (warrior, priest, wizard, rogue), and for that matter the term THAC0 wasn't used in a rulebook until the Mentzer BECMI D&D "Black Box" Master Set in 1985. In 1st edition AD&D, as listed on page 74 of the DMG, to-hit rolls stop improving after level 17 for fighters, paladins, and rangers, though the last improvement is at level 19 for clerics, monks, and druids, and at level 21 for magic-users, illusionists, thieves, and assassins. Not certain as to whether this was fully implemented in the Gold Box games.

You are correct, the image I copied is not correct.

Launching off my current POD game, a dual-classed level 17/14 paladin with STR 18/00 and no weapons has THAC0 5, which without strength bonuses corresponds to 8. A level 10 ranger has 9, which translates to 12. Level 15 rangers have 3, which equals 6. All of these numbers match 1st ed AD&D page 74.

Launching off my finished DQK game, L34 fighter has THAC0 equivalent of 4, level 20 Knight also 4 and level 30/31 mages 11. These also correspond to the AD&D DMG and verify the level caps.

 

[The Limper]

I did check the manuals before asking. It seems that in order to find this information, one would need to be able to check the game files, which is not my realm if expertise or possibly fiddle with levels in GBC. If THACO and Saves truly cap, though HP/level doesn’t, the only other factor in the warrior type comparison would be AT/round. Does that increase cap as well?